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New Irish case reported by the Irish times

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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Post by Obie » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:17 pm

Guys you are reminded that your membership of this forum is a priveledge and not an entitlement. With this priveledge comes responsibility.
It is expected that everyone would show courtsey for each others.
Post which are liable to cause offence or incite discord is not permissable on this forum.

If people are unable to make positive contributions, they should cease from doing so.

This thread appears to be going of track, and will be closed shortly if it becomes apparent to myself or colleague that it is not serving any purpose.

I once again implore every culprit to change their ways, in order to prevent themselves from getting in an unfortunate position.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Post by walrusgumble » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:36 pm

OBIE: Start doing your job then. Protocols should be in place where posters are required to cite and link the sources of their opinion. This is required on any other site. That puts to bed the now predictable allegations that are spouted out when certain posters are incapable of dealing with facts. It puts a stop to amateur analysis of areas some clearly don't understand but are prepared to show ignorance and attack no matter what,then get pissy when they have little to say.At this point other sites would classify them as trolls.

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Post by IQU » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:47 pm

china and india will be the next world power.i am just laughing at irish tom not to europe recession ok.i think you quite didnot understand my last 3 posts.

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Post by Rip v Winkle » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:06 am

walrusgumble wrote: Apologies,
If the State did not bring it up, I certainly shouldn't have. Except for the Irish Times report, I don't know the circumstances of the case.
However,it is very difficult for me to see any justification for arresting, possibly imprisioning and subsequently deporting an undocumented resident under the circumstances outlined.
I take you think the State will appeal to he Supreme Court. On what grounds? I realise it would be speculation, but I would be interested to know what you think.
Rip v Winkle wrote:I completely agree with Walrusgumble on this. the discussion has degenerated into a very nasty form of internet pingpong.

The case itself is interesting.
There seems to be strong circumstantial evidence of a sham "marriage", not to mention the the moral implications of possibly having child for this purpose.
However, the Judge has (presumably) applied the law as it stands. If we as a State feel that the law needs changing (and I think Justice Hogan strongly implied that it does last March), then the Minister should have new laws drafted.
He might consider clarifying immigration legisation at the same time. The rules are far too vague and the INIS is a nightmare. Franz Kafka springs to mind.
There was no issue of "sham marriages" in the case that you referred to. You should not make such comments if you never read what Hogan J actually said or what the State claimed.
There is a difference between coming to Ireland and already being pregnant, and another to actually become pregnant with a partner, who is undisputely together.

The Judge based it on Irish law. The "present status quo" under Irish Law, has been assumed to be Lobe. While that might be so, the State have on a continous basis applied Lobe as a carte blanche in ALL subsequent cases, even if the FACTS of the case are almost identical to Fajunonu. The cases of Dimbo removed some of the veener in Lobe.

It is no surprise that Hogan J came to the conclusion that he did, he has made his views clear in his writings and has been the leading barrister in most of the IBC cases, including, I believe, the Lobe case.

It was easy for the judge to come to this conclusion, in light of Judicial Review, because the Minister failed to properly analysis the couples case. It is not enough, simply to make a few bland sentences to properly consider that persons case. It goes beyond, in some ways, in light of facts of the cases, of old ECtHR cases (that accepted that even EU citizens may have to relocate if they want to be united, if insurmountable obstacles are not present - makes relationship with EU law all the more interesting, in light of Lisbon. Irrespective, Zambrano would be relevant if it was considered, Dercie taken aside.

Had the Minister (old Minister) made properly analysis, it would be difficult to see a judge being able to over rule it. I won't be surprised if this is appealed. Though, depending on the State's interpretation of Zambrano, that might not happen. It is odd, Zambrano was not expressed in the Judgment.

The Immigration Bill has had some "fun" times in the past 2-5 years. I don't see a whole lot of change if enacted, bar it will be in writing. Despite Shatter's comments as an opposition Minister, I can't see the government will reduce Ministerial discretion, as they need to deal with whatever new issues emerge, as amending legislation takes time.

Reform is definitely needed.

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Post by walrusgumble » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:46 pm

IQU wrote:china and india will be the next world power.i am just laughing at irish tom not to europe recession ok.i think you quite didnot understand my last 3 posts.
Yes I know, but if I was Chinese or other Asians etc I would not be laughing about the fact that they are loaning EU money, they won't get it back.

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Post by Regulator56 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:50 pm

walrusgumble wrote:
IQU wrote:china and india will be the next world power.i am just laughing at irish tom not to europe recession ok.i think you quite didnot understand my last 3 posts.
Yes I know, but if I was Chinese or other Asians etc I would not be laughing about the fact that they are loaning EU money, they won't get it back.
They won't get it back? Funny that, the loan process involves a contract as you would know. I understand they might not pay back monetarily because of the convoluted nature of the EU and I think the Chinese know this already. However, the EU would have to make concessions in terms of Chinese access to the EU market that would benefit Chinese businesses.

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Post by walrusgumble » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:47 pm

Regulator56 wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
IQU wrote:china and india will be the next world power.i am just laughing at irish tom not to europe recession ok.i think you quite didnot understand my last 3 posts.
Yes I know, but if I was Chinese or other Asians etc I would not be laughing about the fact that they are loaning EU money, they won't get it back.
They won't get it back? Funny that, the loan process involves a contract as you would know. I understand they might not pay back monetarily because of the convoluted nature of the EU and I think the Chinese know this already. However, the EU would have to make concessions in terms of Chinese access to the EU market that would benefit Chinese businesses.
good point.chinese business is already expanding into europe though. what type of concessions do you reckon?there is no way germany will allow china to threaten its interests either.they will put "human rights barriers" against them if it suits them.

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Post by Regulator56 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:25 pm

walrusgumble wrote:
Regulator56 wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
IQU wrote:china and india will be the next world power.i am just laughing at irish tom not to europe recession ok.i think you quite didnot understand my last 3 posts.
Yes I know, but if I was Chinese or other Asians etc I would not be laughing about the fact that they are loaning EU money, they won't get it back.
They won't get it back? Funny that, the loan process involves a contract as you would know. I understand they might not pay back monetarily because of the convoluted nature of the EU and I think the Chinese know this already. However, the EU would have to make concessions in terms of Chinese access to the EU market that would benefit Chinese businesses.
good point.chinese business is already expanding into europe though. what type of concessions do you reckon?there is no way germany will allow china to threaten its interests either.they will put "human rights barriers" against them if it suits them.
You are quite correct that Chinese human rights could be a tool for the EU but I really doubt that is a viable tool in the short term at least if it would ever be. China is not Iran or Syria that the EU can impose sanctions on at will without consequences- most European businesses depend on the Chinese supply chain machine to survive.

Specifically in response to your question, I think you should look at Australia and resource rich countries in Africa for your answers, China wants assets and at the moment they have extra-ordinary purchasing power to buy, Germany does not have that luxury unfortunately. It is pretty surreal that the EU has to practically beg the Chinese to help them out, however it is the reality.

In terms of concessions, who knows? But the obvious would be easing of competition laws, relaxation of barriers to Chinese businesses into the EU etc. It is a bit convoluted but the fact is that the EU is in a bad economic state especially in terms of uncertainty and the markets are dying to get rid of the euro for reasons I don't know to be honest.

Unfortunately the Franco-German control of the EU is not popular with member states at the moment- to clarify that, I mean the citizenry and not the over-paid cocooned EU bureaucrats. The situation is fluid so it is quite premature to have a definitive stance but events suggests that the EU is about to have a new landlord.

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Post by walrusgumble » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:50 pm

Dercei

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... mit=Submit

On those grounds, the Court (Grand Chamber) hereby rules:

1. European Union law and, in particular, its provisions on citizenship of the Union, must be interpreted as meaning that it does not preclude a Member State from refusing to allow a third country national to reside on its territory, where that third country national wishes to reside with a member of his family who is a citizen of the Union residing in the Member State of which he has nationality, who has never exercised his right to freedom of movement, provided that such refusal does not lead, for the Union citizen concerned, to the denial of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights conferred by virtue of his status as a citizen of the Union, which is a matter for the referring court to verify.

2. Article 41(1) of the Additional Protocol, signed in Brussels on 23 November 1970 and concluded, approved and confirmed on behalf of the Community by Council Regulation (EEC) No 2760/72 of 19 December 1972, must be interpreted as meaning that the enactment of new legislation more restrictive that the previous legislation, which, for its part, relaxed earlier legislation concerning the conditions for the exercise of the freedom of establishment of Turkish nationals at the time of the entry into force of that protocol in the Member State concerned must be considered to be a ‘new restriction’ within the meaning of that provision.

[Signatures]

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Post by Regulator56 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:22 pm

walrusgumble wrote:Dercei

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... mit=Submit

On those grounds, the Court (Grand Chamber) hereby rules:

1. European Union law and, in particular, its provisions on citizenship of the Union, must be interpreted as meaning that it does not preclude a Member State from refusing to allow a third country national to reside on its territory, where that third country national wishes to reside with a member of his family who is a citizen of the Union residing in the Member State of which he has nationality, who has never exercised his right to freedom of movement, provided that such refusal does not lead, for the Union citizen concerned, to the denial of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights conferred by virtue of his status as a citizen of the Union, which is a matter for the referring court to verify.

2. Article 41(1) of the Additional Protocol, signed in Brussels on 23 November 1970 and concluded, approved and confirmed on behalf of the Community by Council Regulation (EEC) No 2760/72 of 19 December 1972, must be interpreted as meaning that the enactment of new legislation more restrictive that the previous legislation, which, for its part, relaxed earlier legislation concerning the conditions for the exercise of the freedom of establishment of Turkish nationals at the time of the entry into force of that protocol in the Member State concerned must be considered to be a ‘new restriction’ within the meaning of that provision.

[Signatures]

In a nutshell without the dramatics, this ruling essentially means that non-EU parent/parents cannot rely on the Zambrano to stay in EU countries where their children are non-citizens.

Essentially, non EU parents of Italian/British/ German children etc cannot rely on Zambrano ruling to stay in Ireland. However, it also explicates the fact that as along as you have an Irish child living with you in Ireland, you cannot be precluded from living legally in the state regardless if one of the parent is an EU national or not. i.e a German living in Ireland with an American-the American cannot be denied the right to stay in Ireland as long as the couple have Irish child/children.

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Post by walrusgumble » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:46 pm

zambrano only concerns right to live in country of child.mccarthy n dercei severely limits this case.it is highely unlikely but not impossible that german n american parents of irish child can rely on zambrano in ireland,because they will look at the german's activity n whether metock and directive 2004/38 applies ie articles 7 and 12-17. what happens if german is "illegal"?Courts will have to answer that because there's no chance of child having to leave the eu, as germany is an option, child after all,is also a german. singh could help the family in germany.zambrano is exceptional and last resort and affected saved parents who were both non eu. either way dercei is not directly concerning your example, but mccarthy did not directly concern dereci and it was influential. your example needs clarification
Last edited by walrusgumble on Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by walrusgumble » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:11 pm

its a good job the high court in the original discussion did not look at eu law,because if they did decerci would apply and might not save the couple.echr is not very strong on this either.it may all fall down to shatter not appealing cause Supreme court,depending which judges sit,could go anyway.But Judges are very annoyed with Shatter,so they might rule in favour of the couple in spite,cause case law is not postive

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Post by Regulator56 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:22 pm

walrusgumble wrote:zambrano will not help non eu parent, if the child and other parent are eu citizen born n resident in that country , eg irish citizen and always live in ireland.the focus then shifts to eu parent not child.zambrano is last resort.remember the tiny qualification in mccarty regarding zambrano.if somehow,eu parent cant live in elsewhere in europe which is unlikely,things might be different.this should not effect both parents if both are non eu. expect another case before the courts. zambrano allows non eu parent(s) stay in country of citizen child (so long as parent is not a citizen of that child and never left that country)

Interesting. I have not had a detailed look at the ruling myself, so I cannot make an informed comment on your interpretation.

Zambrano ruling in my opinion gives non-EU parent/parents of EU citizens the right to live with with their children.

The Dereci case sought further clarification with regards to the actual operational implementation of the Zambrano ruling in regards to the extent of these rights, not to negate the rights.

I gave a specific analogy earlier whereby a German/American couple have Irish children in Ireland, it would oppose the Zambrano ruling if the American is not allowed residence based on the Zambrano criteria. I disagree that the Zambrano ruling is binding only if both parents are non-EU nationals....well unless I am mistaken.

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Post by Regulator56 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:30 pm

walrusgumble wrote:its a good job the high court in the original discussion did not look at eu law,because if they did decerci would apply and might not save the couple.echr is not very strong on this either.it may all fall down to shatter not appealing cause Supreme court,depending which judges sit,could go anyway.But Judges are very annoyed with Shatter,so they might rule in favour of the couple in spite,cause case law is not postive

What case are referring to? The Nigerian asylum seeker married to an Irish man with an Irish child?

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Post by walrusgumble » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:35 am

Regulator56 wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:its a good job the high court in the original discussion did not look at eu law,because if they did decerci would apply and might not save the couple.echr is not very strong on this either.it may all fall down to shatter not appealing cause Supreme court,depending which judges sit,could go anyway.But Judges are very annoyed with Shatter,so they might rule in favour of the couple in spite,cause case law is not postive

What case are referring to? The Nigerian asylum seeker married to an Irish man with an Irish child?
Yes, the case that was reported in the Irish Times, the topic of this thread.

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Post by walrusgumble » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:51 am

Regulator56 wrote:
I gave a specific analogy earlier whereby a German/American couple have Irish children in Ireland, it would oppose the Zambrano ruling if the American is not allowed residence based on the Zambrano criteria. I disagree that the Zambrano ruling is binding only if both parents are non-EU nationals....well unless I am mistaken.
I meant that it is likely that the family would be considered on the basis of the activity of the German first. The focus shifts to her. Zambrano might apply if she no longer complied with Directive 2004/38 , technically she is "illegal" (even that is a grey matter in Europe, technically you can be asked to leave, but there are issues there, note the British and their dealings with Romas)

I am not going to get into too much of a discussion on this entirely, because I would not dispute what you have said. I just think the child will be last resort. I have a bad feeling, (which I concede has no clarification from the Court) about what they would do with your opinion, but again, its only an opinion and not an interpretation. It would not be contraversial and it does not really touch (well it does, but not in a major way) on internal situation in the sense that there was an EU citizen who did come over.

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Post by dalebutt » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:08 am

What about in cases where one of the parent is Irish and the child qualifies to be Irish on the basis of say the dad's citizenship whereas the mum is an illegal alien would Zambrano not apply for the mum to qualify for residence. Would it be said that because one of the parents is EU citizen the child would not have to leave the state. am not really clear about this rullings

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Post by walrusgumble » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:14 am

dalebutt wrote:What about in cases where one of the parent is Irish and the child qualifies to be Irish on the basis of say the dad's citizenship whereas the mum is an illegal alien would Zambrano not apply for the mum to qualify for residence. Would it be said that because one of the parents is EU citizen the child would not have to leave the state. am not really clear about this rullings
If the Child is Irish and the father is Irish? Living in Ireland? I see where you are going on that. I reckon Derecei will still apply. Could be wrong to be honest, but Derecei should make no difference between mother and father, but, its a good argument I guess. I think in Dereci , the EU parent was the Mother.

It would be said that the parent would not have to leave the Union itself, and yes, the State.

Either way, EU law is not the main point in the Irish times case.

Clear? I agree with you to be honest.

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Post by dalebutt » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:34 am

Yes am clear now. That means this Dereci Judgement weakens Zambrano as i was viewing the spirit attached to Zambrano initially. So it all boils down to national laws determining if the third country national should remain with their child in the state?
Last edited by dalebutt on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by walrusgumble » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:40 am

dalebutt wrote:Yes am clear now. That means this Dereci Judgement weakens Zambrano as i was viewing the spirit attached to Zambrano initially. So it all boils down to national courts determining if the third country national should remain with their child in the state?
If you mean that you thought the spirit of Zambrano applies to all EU children and their family, then yes, Zambrano is weakened by McCarthy and Dereci

It puts to bed, for now, notions on reverse discrimination, and notions as to the power of Article 20 and 21 TFEU.

It all boils down...... thats if the other parent is a national of that State and never left

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Post by dalebutt » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:53 am

Am saying this because UKBA wrote to my friend on tuesday, he is a Ghanian albeit not married but had a child and living together with his British partner thus their daughter is British. though he hasnt been working, the partner has been sponsoring the family all along. UKBA says because the child is not econimically dependent on him he would not qualify under Zambrano rulling because the mum is economically active and they do not see why his living the state would make the child leave the state or affect the child in anyway.

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Post by walrusgumble » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:53 am

dalebutt wrote:Am saying this because UKBA wrote to my friend on tuesday, he is a Ghanian albeit not married but had a child and living together with his British partner thus their daughter is British. though he hasnt been working, the partner has been sponsoring the family all along. UKBA says because the child is not econimically dependent on him he would not qualify under Zambrano rulling because the mum is economically active and they do not see why his living the state would make the child leave the state or affect the child in anyway.
They applied Dereci

I think that case actually said that finance is irrelevant. I need to read it again. The best and cleanest thing to do would now be for the Brit to move to another EU state with family and rely on Metock. The fact that she is a Brit, this case seems prepared to allow the family to move in order to stay to gether (just like the ECHR) but only so long as it does not mean that they will not have to leave the Union territory

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Post by howlong » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:52 pm

sorry this is too long..couldn't find the link

Before

UPPER TRIBUNAL JUDGE GLEESON
UPPER TRIBUNAL JUDGE CRAIG


Between


MISS IRINA KURAN
MISS ALEXANDRA KURAN
Appellants
and

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT

Respondent


Representation:

For the Appellant: Mr R Arkhurst, instructed by Arlington Crown, Solicitors
For the Respondent: Ms A Holmes, Home Office Presenting Officer


DETERMINATION AND REASONS

The first appellant is a citizen of the Ukraine, and is the mother of the second appellant, who was born in the United Kingdom in November 2008 and is almost three years old. The second appellant’s father is a Roumanian citizen and she takes her nationality from him. She is therefore also a Roumanian citizen and an EEA national. Her citizenship of the EU is her primary nationality, as set out in Ruiz Zambrano (European citizenship) [2011] EUECJ C-34/09.
The Secretary of State proposed to remove both appellants to Ukraine, the mother’s country of nationality. There was no evidence about the second appellant’s ability to enter the Ukraine, of which she is not a national, if her mother is returned there. The relationship between the first appellant and the second appellant’s father in the United Kingdom has broken down and, at present, he does not see the second appellant, by his own choice.
The appellants have been granted permission to appeal against the First-tier Tribunal determination (Immigration Judge Callender Smith) dismissing their appeals against the respondent’s decision to refuse the second appellant a registration certificate confirming that she is an EEA national exercising Treaty rights in the United Kingdom pursuant to the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006; and the first appellant a Residence Card as her family member.
The respondent did not dispute that the appellants possessed health insurance at the appropriate level for an EEA Regulations self-sufficiency application. However, the financial element of self-sufficiency was disputed, since the evidence was that the second appellant’s self-sufficiency relied on the economic activity of the first appellant, her mother. The Immigration Judge did not consider that the second appellant’s dependence on her mother’s income for her self-sufficiency met the requirement of the Regulations and of the underlying Directive.
Permission to appeal was granted by Immigration Judge Blandy, based on arguments under Chen and others (free movement of persons) [2004] EUECJ C-200/02 and Zambrano. Unfortunately, the decision of this Tribunal in M (Chen parents: source of rights) Ivory Coast [2010] UKUT 277 (IAC) was not cited either to the First-tier Tribunal or in the grounds of appeal.
In that decision, Blake P said this:
“35. In the present case, [the EEA citizen child] C has a right of entry simply by virtue of her EU nationality. On arrival, she can enter for three months irrespective of health insurance or other issues relevant to a longer stay (see Article 6 of the Citizens Directive). In fact, as she will be joining the household of a British Citizen with well paid employment and has bupa health insurance she could demonstrate both conditions that the child in Chen could not, as does her mother M. It has never been suggested that C did not have a right of entry in the present case. It is equally clear as the Immigration Judge found that C's right of residence in EU law is dependent on her mother being admitted to the United Kingdom as her mother is her primary carer. Thus the issue that led to the claim being rejected in W (China) does not arise in the present case. The child is self-sufficient and has a right of entry.”
The decision of the ECJ in Zambrano clarified matters further:
“40      Article 20 TFEU confers the status of citizen of the Union on every person holding the nationality of a Member State (see, inter alia, Case C-224/98 D’Hoop [2002] ECR I-6191, paragraph 27, and Case C-148/02 Garcia Avello [2003] ECR I-11613, paragraph 21). …
41      As the Court has stated several times, citizenship of the Union is intended to be the fundamental status of nationals of the Member States (see, inter alia, Case C-184/99 Grzelczyk [2001] ECR I-6193, paragraph 31; Case C-413/99 Baumbast and R [2002] ECR I-7091, paragraph 82; Garcia Avello, paragraph 22; Zhu and Chen, paragraph 25; and Rottmann, paragraph 43).
42      In those circumstances, Article 20 TFEU precludes national measures which have the effect of depriving citizens of the Union of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights conferred by virtue of their status as citizens of the Union (see, to that effect, Rottmann, paragraph 42).
43      A refusal to grant a right of residence to a third country national with dependent minor children in the Member State where those children are nationals and reside, and also a refusal to grant such a person a work permit, has such an effect.
44      It must be assumed that such a refusal would lead to a situation where those children, citizens of the Union, would have to leave the territory of the Union in order to accompany their parents. Similarly, if a work permit were not granted to such a person, he would risk not having sufficient resources to provide for himself and his family, which would also result in the children, citizens of the Union, having to leave the territory of the Union. In those circumstances, those citizens of the Union would, as a result, be unable to exercise the substance of the rights conferred on them by virtue of their status as citizens of the Union.
45      Accordingly, the answer to the questions referred is that Article 20 TFEU is to be interpreted as meaning that it precludes a Member State from refusing a third country national upon whom his minor children, who are European Union citizens, are dependent, a right of residence in the Member State of residence and nationality of those children, and from refusing to grant a work permit to that third country national, in so far as such decisions deprive those children of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights attaching to the status of European Union citizen.”
Application of Zambrano and MM in this appeal
The second appellant is an EEA national, which is her fundamental status. She is Roumanian. This appeal turns on her legal position under the Regulations; that of her mother, the first appellant, in practice depends on the decision made on the second appellant’s right to a registration certificate as a self-sufficient EEA citizen exercising her right of free movement in the United Kingdom, where she was born.
As an EEA national the second appellant has the right to the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights attaching to the status of EU citizen. Following MM, her EEA rights include the right to reside in any state in the Union, subject to self-sufficiency or other Treaty activity, a right which she cannot exercise unless her mother, who is her primary carer, is there with her and is able to work and support them both.
At the hearing, Ms Holmes agreed with us that the Immigration Judge had erred in law in regarding that as an impermissible circular argument. She also agreed that the second appellant was self-sufficient in EEA Regulations terms and thus entitled to the registration certificate she had sought, and that her mother was entitled to a Residence Card as her family member and primary carer.
The appeals of both appellants are allowed, by consent.

DECISION
The making of the previous decision involved the making of an error of law.
We therefore set aside the previous decision and remake it.
The appeals of both appellants are allowed.

Date: 23 September 2011 Signed
Senior Immigration Judge Gleeson
Judge of the Upper Tribunal

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Post by Obie » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:40 pm

The case you cited above was not a reported case, and therefore it cannot be used as a precedent before the courts.

In the UK, the mostly used case is ZH Tanzania

Dereci case is a bit complex, the court dealt with Mr Dereci's case as the spouse of an Austrian Citizen rather that the father of a minor EU citizen child. The answers were vague and open to various interpretations. It sort of imposes an obligation on memberstate to address article 8 or Article 7, which is quite innovative. Mr Dereci did eventually won under the Ankara Agreement signed between Turkey and the European Union, but the court did not preclude the fact that other family members in that case will succeed under Article 8 or other European instrument like Article 7 of the Charter of Fundamental rights.
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walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:01 pm

Obie wrote:The case you cited above was not a reported case, and therefore it cannot be used as a precedent before the courts.

In the UK, the mostly used case is ZH Tanzania

Dereci case is a bit complex, the court dealt with Mr Dereci's case as the spouse of an Austrian Citizen rather that the father of a minor EU citizen child. The answers were vague and open to various interpretations. It sort of imposes an obligation on memberstate to address article 8 or Article 7, which is quite innovative. Mr Dereci did eventually won under the Ankara Agreement signed between Turkey and the European Union, but the court did not preclude the fact that other family members in that case will succeed under Article 8 or other European instrument like Article 7 of the Charter of Fundamental rights.

You mean that the decision is of the Administrative Tribunal and not a Court, then you are correct.

But "reported", that term refers to cases before a Court (of the Traditional sense) Courts consider BOTH "Reported" and "Unreported" cases. Reported comes from the the fact that cases are published in the quartly/annual law reports, eg Halsbury in the UK. Not all cases get published, loads of cases are underestimated for their importance.

One example in Ireland, of a crucial case, that the Supreme Court have held as bible is the O'Reilly v Limerick Corporation 1984. That was "unreported". The distinction has nearly ended now as the practice in both Jurisidictions, due to the advent of the internet, is to publish nearly all judgments on the next

The tribunal judgment can be still helpful if it is different to that case that you refer to, but yeah, binding wise, you need confirmation from the Court to successful rely on it (cause the other side would just say, the Courts never confirmed it etc)

In Ireland for example, the RAT decisions; they use to be published on a private site. The Minister is not obliged or bound by previous decisions of RAT (This Tribunal is on the same basis )



What vague and various interpretations do you take from the case, in light of the preliminary questions that the Court was asked? (genuine question)

Imposing Article 8 ECHR is not innovative. This has been in place for donkey's of years. A good example is Carpetener. The Applicants always rely on Article 8 in an application. Article 8 is weak as caselaw shall and can often be favourable to the State. Article 8 is the clear and obvious soul in cases that involve criminals and deportation (see what has to be considered by the Directive 2004/38 Article 30-35)
Last edited by walrusgumble on Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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