Visa required for my UK born/Australian national daughter?

[John G]

Hi All,

I had a quick question! My daughter was recently born on the 23/10/2011. I looked into applying for a UK Passport for her by virtue of me being an Italian national under Treaty rights (had to prove been in the UK for more than 5 years) but they said I can't get it for her as I claimed one month job allowance in the over 5 years I have lived in the UK! (total joke!)

In any case, have now applied for an Australian passport (by virtue of me being Australian by birth) for my daughter and we should be receiving that mid December.

My question is whether she needs some kind of visa to come back into the country? We are going to Colombia for a month in January.

I did find this information:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

But it only confused me even more! Why can't they make these things easy to understand!??

Any help much appreciated!

Thanks,

John

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

What exactly did you receive money for in that month?

Is your daughter also potentially Italian or Colombian?

In any case, you are an Italian citizen. So your daughter can be in the UK with you. End of story.

Since Australians can enter visa free into the UK, it should be no problem. You can also apply for a no-cost Residence Card for her, which proves she has a right to live and work in the UK.

Congratulations on the new child!

[John G]

What exactly did you receive money for in that month?

Is your daughter also potentially Italian or Colombian?

In any case, you are an Italian citizen. So your daughter can be in the UK with you. End of story.

Since Australians can enter visa free into the UK, it should be no problem. You can also apply for a no-cost Residence Card for her, which proves she has a right to live and work in the UK.

Congratulations on the new child!

Hi Guru! Thanks for the info and for the congratulations! (best thing in the world!)

Re your question: What exactly did you receive money for in that month? I received ONE payment of job seekers allowance.

Re your question: Is your daughter also potentially Italian or Colombian? Yes, I can apply for her Italian passport but this takes longer, need to translate birth certificate etc etc... may do this later. Re Colombian passport NO POINT in applying for this passport! it would only provide more headaches than anything else!

Re the Residence Card for my daughter, do you have the link to the forms/info on this front?

Thanks again,

John

[Jambo]

Was this income based JSA or contribution based?
Did you work in the UK before Jan 2007? For how long?

Contribution JSA are not considered Public Funds for this EEA residence purpose.

The principle is that EEA national should not be become unreasonable burden on the state. In your case, it doesn't sounds like that and I would argue that your residency wasn't affected.

The issue when dealing directly with IPS is that they are not specialised in EEA cases and might not always get it right.

In any case, if you will be travelling on an OZ passport, travel with her birth certificate as proof of her relationship to you (EEA national) and some payslips for yourself. That is all that is needed for her to enter the country as a family member of EEA national exercising treaty right in the UK (don't try to get her in as a visitor as she is not).

Once in country, apply for EEA2.

[John G]

Was this income based JSA or contribution based?
Did you work in the UK before Jan 2007? For how long?

Contribution JSA are not considered Public Funds for this EEA residence purpose.

The principle is that EEA national should not be become unreasonable burden on the state. In your case, it doesn't sounds like that and I would argue that your residency wasn't affected.

The issue when dealing directly with IPS is that they are not specialised in EEA cases and might not always get it right.

In any case, if you will be travelling on an OZ passport, travel with her birth certificate as proof of her relationship to you (EEA national) and some payslips for yourself. That is all that is needed for her to enter the country as a family member of EEA national exercising treaty right in the UK (don't try to get her in as a visitor as she is not).

Once in country, apply for EEA2.

Hi Jambo, thanks for that info, very useful!

answering your questions:

Was this income based JSA or contribution based? I am not sure to be perfectly honest

Did you work in the UK before Jan 2007? For how long? Yes, I worked in the UK from January 2006 to December 2007. I left the job as my father had a triple bypass back home in Sydney. I claimed/got paid £200 for Jan uary JSA and thats it. Then I flew to Oz for month or so, then came back, looked for work and started new job in April/May 2007.

Based on what you are saying I would still be entitled to a UK passport for my daughter!?

When I spoke to the Passport people on the phone they where adamant that any claim in the "5 year period" disqualified me automatically!

The funny thing is, they also told me if I had the P60's for the whole 5 year period it wouldn't matter!! Seems contradictory! You see if I had my original P45 for the tax year 2006/2007 it would not matter that I claimed the one month JSA!.... since I don't have the original P45 for that particular period they need to know what I was doing in that gap where I didn't work! That is Jan/Feb/March/April 2007... so the bank statements will do, but the one JSA payment will show and they will negate the applications based on what the lady over the phone said.

Do you recommend I still apply for her British passport under EU treaty rights?

Thanks

John

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Hi All,

I had a quick question! My daughter was recently born on the 23/10/2011. I looked into applying for a UK Passport for her by virtue of me being an Italian national under Treaty rights (had to prove been in the UK for more than 5 years) but they said I can't get it for her as I claimed one month job allowance in the over 5 years I have lived in the UK! (total joke!)

In any case, have now applied for an Australian passport (by virtue of me being Australian by birth) for my daughter and we should be receiving that mid December.

My question is whether she needs some kind of visa to come back into the country? We are going to Colombia for a month in January.

I did find this information:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

But it only confused me even more! Why can't they make these things easy to understand!??

Any help much appreciated!

Thanks,

John :D

Your unemployment may be relevant depending on when it was; if it was after the first year, it should not have mattered. What were the grounds, were you given an option to appeal?

For the purposes of your holiday, your beautiful girl will have an Australian passport. That will get her on the plane, she will not be a visa national. If you as an Italian are exercising treaty rights your daughter is entitled to be with you irrespective of nationality. You'll be fine with an aussie passport. Be sure of your and your daughter's rights.

Do not fill landing card, pass go.

[Jambo]

Was this income based JSA or contribution based? I am not sure to be perfectly honest

Sounds it was income based but that doesn't mean you lost your residence.

Based on what you are saying I would still be entitled to a UK passport for my daughter!?
Do you recommend I still apply for her British passport under EU treaty rights?

I would call the HO European Enquires Contact Centre on 01516725626 and ask for their view (they are the ones issuing the PR confirmation document). Although it would not really matter (as ridiculous as it sounds) as it is the nationality team in IPS you need to convince but hopefully they could provide some ammunition against IPS.

Another option is to apply for PR confirmation (EEA3) from the HO. although again, you will still need to provide IPS evidence to "back-date" your PR confirmation (as you need to have gained it automatically before your child was born in order for her to be British from birth) but if you apply for PR confirmation now and get it you will only need to back date 2006 which you have proof of.

Also worth reading Public Funds before talking to IPS/HO again.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Was this income based JSA or contribution based? I am not sure to be perfectly honest

Sounds it was income based but that doesn't mean you lost your residence.

Based on what you are saying I would still be entitled to a UK passport for my daughter!?
Do you recommend I still apply for her British passport under EU treaty rights?

I would call the HO European Enquires Contact Centre on 01516725626 and ask for their view (they are the ones issuing the PR confirmation document). Although it would not really matter (as ridiculous as it sounds) as it is the nationality team in IPS you need to convince but hopefully they could provide some ammunition against IPS.

Another option is to apply for PR confirmation (EEA3) from the HO. although again, you will still need to provide IPS evidence to "back-date" your PR confirmation (as you need to have gained it automatically before your child was born in order for her to be British from birth) but if you apply for PR confirmation now and get it you will only need to back date 2006 which you have proof of.

Also worth reading Public Funds before talking to IPS/HO again.

Irrespective of who made the decision, they have effectively implied that you did not qualify under EEA regs. You should be told why so you can understand and if you disagree appeal.

[John G]

Thanks for all the info guys! Much appreciated and I might act on it.

I will access whether it's worth pursuing the UK Passport route or simple get her the Italian passport (in addition to the Australian Passport I already have taken out for her)

Thanks again,

John

[John G]

Hi All,

I had a quick question! My daughter was recently born on the 23/10/2011. I looked into applying for a UK Passport for her by virtue of me being an Italian national under Treaty rights (had to prove been in the UK for more than 5 years) but they said I can't get it for her as I claimed one month job allowance in the over 5 years I have lived in the UK! (total joke!)

In any case, have now applied for an Australian passport (by virtue of me being Australian by birth) for my daughter and we should be receiving that mid December.

My question is whether she needs some kind of visa to come back into the country? We are going to Colombia for a month in January.

I did find this information:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

But it only confused me even more! Why can't they make these things easy to understand!??

Any help much appreciated!

Thanks,

John

Your unemployment may be relevant depending on when it was; if it was after the first year, it should not have mattered. What were the grounds, were you given an option to appeal?

For the purposes of your holiday, your beautiful girl will have an Australian passport. That will get her on the plane, she will not be a visa national. If you as an Italian are exercising treaty rights your daughter is entitled to be with you irrespective of nationality. You'll be fine with an aussie passport. Be sure of your and your daughter's rights.

Do not fill landing card, pass go.

Hi EUsmileWEallsmile, answering your question:

What were the grounds, were you given an option to appeal?

I have not actually applied yet for the UK passport for my daughter. I went for two appointments and they needed more info on both occasions. On the 2nd appointment at the IPS in London they told me they required me to prove what I was doing in the months of Jan/Feb/March/April 2007 and whether I claimed any UK benefit. They told me bank statements will do as proof (as I don't have the original P45 for the tax year 2006/2007)

I didn't remember if I had claimed any benefit but when I got home I dug out the bank statements for those months and sure enough I got paid just under £200 in January for Job Seekers Allowance. For the other month or so I went back to Australia for my Dads triple bypass operation and then came back, looked for work and then started a new job in April 2007.

I then called the IPS help line and they informed me that if I claimed any benefit during the 5 year period before my daughter was born on the 23/10/2011 I was disqualified from getting her a UK passport under EU Treaty Rights.

This doesn't make much sense to me because if I did have the original P45 for the tax year 2006/2007 the IPS would not even know about the JSA and it would not even come into the equation!..... just seems really silly that they have told me I have no grounds because I claimed JSA for one month.

I guess the real test would be to put the application in. The thing is I don't think the people at the IPS in London will place it through!

Thanks

John

[Jambo]

I will access whether it's worth pursuing the UK Passport route or simple get her the Italian passport (in addition to the Australian Passport I already have taken out for her)

It's worth getting the passport (at least the first one) so she is "in the system". Likely to be more difficult to provide evidence for her claim for British citizenship later in life. UK passport might come handy someday.

Did you consider getting a letter from HMRC instead of bank statements to cover the missing P60?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I then called the IPS help line and they informed me that if I claimed any benefit during the 5 year period before my daughter was born on the 23/10/2011 I was disqualified from getting her a UK passport under EU Treaty Rights.

If IPS told you this, then the person you were talking with was misinformed. There are lots of benefits you can get without having any impact on your status here as a "qualified person".

You have two routes to your prove your daughter's (probably) already-existing British citizenship.

(1) Apply for confirmation of your PR (for a 5 year period prior to your daughter's birth) from UKBA. UKBA does the evaluation work of whether you have PR. That is proof that your daughter is British. Applying for the passport is then just a formality.
OR
(2) Apply to IPS for a British passport for your daughter. IPS does the evaluation work of whether you had PR.

At this point I understand you have done neither (1) nor (2). That you have had only informal meetings with IPS and have not actually submitted a passport application. Is that correct?

[mastei76]

When I first read thid discussion I had the impression it was about MY case... so many similarities you wouldn't believe!

I am an Italian citizen too, my daughter was born in London on 03rd September 2011 and I immediately started the application process for her British Passport.
Yesterday I've been at the IPS offices in London Victoria for the 5th time so far, and they refused to accept my application once again.

Each time they find out a good reason to say that my supporting documentation is not complete; I applied for the first time bringing the documents as listed in the IPS guidelines: P60 forms for the 5 years prior to the child's birth, and bank statements for a period (7 months) when I wasn't working. They told me the bank statements showing sufficient funds where not enough, and that I needed a letter from the DPW.

It took 2 months to get this letter: the DPW refused to issue a letter to a person who has never been on benefits, stating that I am not on their system and they couldn't do anything.

When I finally got a letter, I was turned back by the IPS a further 3 times:
- first they said that they wanted a written confirmation from all my employers, stating the period when I was working and my final salary (the P60 became suddenly not acceptable);
- next time they told me that the pictures of the baby where no longer valid, since they were more than a month old (so I needed to get new pictures!)
- last time was yesterday (25th November), when I was told that I had to provide proof that during the period while I was not working I was actually residing in the UK.

Since as an EU national I do not get my passport stamped when I enter/exit the UK, they suggested that I get a statutory declaration written by a lawyer and sworn in the court.

In conclusion, my personal impression is that each time you try to apply they will always find a good reason for not accepting your application. They obviously try to discourage the applicants.

[Jambo]

Why do you need to visit the offices? Did you initially apply by post?

[mastei76]

I was told to apply in person for matters like EU treaty rights, since (as later experience confirms) there is the possibility that additional documentation is required...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The simple way to do this is to apply for confirmation of PR from UKBA for the important period, and then use that for a passport application.

Or do the passport application in writing with a very strongly written cover letter that points out UK law and IPS procedures.

Note that IPS has a document "Guidance for IPS staff on how to deal with applications for children born in the UK to European Economic Area (EEA) nationals claiming Treaty rights." I have not reviewed it with respect to these situations, but might be worth reading...

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

People have been rather nasty to me when I've suggested that they pursue British Nationality, of course I know absolutely nothing...

Nonetheless, I will give my twopence worth...

Applying for PR is free - if you fail, try try again.

Naturalization is not necessarily free try, fail, pay again.

All of the above statements are the opinion of the contributor and are not based on personal experience.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

He would in no case have to pay for naturalization.

It is the cost of a baby passport application, currently £49.00

[Jambo]

The simple way to do this is to apply for confirmation of PR from UKBA for the important period, and then use that for a passport application.

Or do the passport application in writing with a very strongly written cover letter that points out UK law and IPS procedures.

Note that IPS has a document "Guidance for IPS staff on how to deal with applications for children born in the UK to European Economic Area (EEA) nationals claiming Treaty rights." I have not reviewed it with respect to these situations, but might be worth reading...

Directive,

Interesting guidelines. In particular the section -

Applications should be refused where there is overwhelming evidence that the parent(s) is dependent on public funds. For example, a person would not be considered as exercising Treaty rights if he/she was working only a few hours per week and reliant almost totally on public funds. However, public funds received for six months or less, before the child’s birth, cannot count against a claim.

As for the PR Confirmation from the HO - then the HO will issue a document with a current date (even if presented with evidence for the period in question), the HO doesn't back date. So you still need to prove that the PR was automatically obtained before the child birth.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

If I were you...

I would submit a passport application by post.
Include all the relevant documentation.
Include a clear cover letter saying that you had PR at the time of the birth.
In the cover letter point them at the relevant sections of their guidance.

Make sure you photocopy EVERYTHING before you send it off, and send it by special delivery.

If it is accepted, then you are done.

If it is rejected, then you get all the documents back and can at that point appeal. That can go on in parallel with your trip to Colombia.

[John G]

When I first read thid discussion I had the impression it was about MY case... so many similarities you wouldn't believe!

I am an Italian citizen too, my daughter was born in London on 03rd September 2011 and I immediately started the application process for her British Passport.
Yesterday I've been at the IPS offices in London Victoria for the 5th time so far, and they refused to accept my application once again.

Each time they find out a good reason to say that my supporting documentation is not complete; I applied for the first time bringing the documents as listed in the IPS guidelines: P60 forms for the 5 years prior to the child's birth, and bank statements for a period (7 months) when I wasn't working. They told me the bank statements showing sufficient funds where not enough, and that I needed a letter from the DPW.

It took 2 months to get this letter: the DPW refused to issue a letter to a person who has never been on benefits, stating that I am not on their system and they couldn't do anything.

When I finally got a letter, I was turned back by the IPS a further 3 times:
- first they said that they wanted a written confirmation from all my employers, stating the period when I was working and my final salary (the P60 became suddenly not acceptable);
- next time they told me that the pictures of the baby where no longer valid, since they were more than a month old (so I needed to get new pictures!)
- last time was yesterday (25th November), when I was told that I had to provide proof that during the period while I was not working I was actually residing in the UK.

Since as an EU national I do not get my passport stamped when I enter/exit the UK, they suggested that I get a statutory declaration written by a lawyer and sworn in the court.

In conclusion, my personal impression is that each time you try to apply they will always find a good reason for not accepting your application. They obviously try to discourage the applicants.

mastei76, that is incredible! Seems like you had a longer battle though! Let me know the latest please! I would be very interested to know!

I will receive my daughters Australian passport on the 13/12, so for now we are OK travel wise etc. But I think I will pursue the UK passport for her, as I strongly believe it's my right as outlined by EU Law and also her right, as she was born in this country!

I would also like to thank all the contributors to this thread! Many thanks!

Will keep you all updated once I get around to going to the IPS again!



John

[John G]

The simple way to do this is to apply for confirmation of PR from UKBA for the important period, and then use that for a passport application.

Or do the passport application in writing with a very strongly written cover letter that points out UK law and IPS procedures.

Note that IPS has a document "Guidance for IPS staff on how to deal with applications for children born in the UK to European Economic Area (EEA) nationals claiming Treaty rights." I have not reviewed it with respect to these situations, but might be worth reading...

Hi Guru, thank you for that link! Cracking read!

I just printed it out and had a good read. So based on what I have read, for my situation, considering I was only paid once for January 2007 (in between jobs and just before I went to Australia for my dad's operation) I would NOT fall foul of the Public Funds question!

Hurrah!

Will sort my paper work again tonight and book the IPS appointment again!

Thanks again Guru! Legend!



John

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Why book an appointment with IPS? Why not just post in the application?

[John G]

Why book an appointment with IPS? Why not just post in the application?

Hi Guru, not sure I can post it? Will check and revert

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

When our baby was born, we did the application by post. Too much to do and too little sleep to bother doing it in person. Plus it is cheaper!

See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_174109 under "First child passport"