do we need a visa for Switzerland

[rolelero]

I am a Dutchman married to a Colombian, we live in the UK, my wife has a residency permit. Do we need a visa to go to Switzerland when we go skiing for a week? We are both traveling together.
Other countries (France/ Holland) we don't need a visa along a I travel with her. We have to explain it each time we arrive at immigration but it is ok, they just stamp her passport and we are on our way.
Can we do this for Switzerland too under the EU freedom of movement law?
We have tickets, accommodation, passports and marriage certificate?
Anyone who can help me with this, your advise is greatly appreciated! Perhaps has experienced the same?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I am a Dutchman married to a Colombian, we live in the UK, my wife has a residency permit. Do we need a visa to go to Switzerland when we go skiing for a week? We are both traveling together.
Other countries (France/ Holland) we don't need a visa along a I travel with her. We have to explain it each time we arrive at immigration but it is ok, they just stamp her passport and we are on our way.
Can we do this for Switzerland too under the EU freedom of movement law?
We have tickets, accommodation, passports and marriage certificate?
Anyone who can help me with this, your advise is greatly appreciated! Perhaps has experienced the same?

I assume your wife has a "Residence Card" for a family member of an EU citizen (see picture). Is that correct?

Since she has a Residence Card, nobody should be stamping her passport anywhere in the EU.

It is always a good idea to carry your marriage certificate. If you ever have any problems, you should be aware that you can enter any EU member state (but not Switzerland!) even if you do not have a visa that somebody claims you should have: see http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

Have you found any information on the swiss embassy web site?

[flyboy]

the following link, question 2

http://ch.vfsglobal.co.uk/familyvisit_faq.html

as well as

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/en/ ... ml#a_faq_2

[rolelero]

she holds "[b]RESIDENCE CARD[/b]"
all questions on sites never state traveing with parther or on their own.
the problem is that if I need a visa we can't get any appointments, there are none in December

[ca.funke]

I am a Dutchman married to a Colombian, we live in the UK, my wife has a residency permit. Do we need a visa to go to Switzerland when we go skiing for a week?

Hi rolelero,

unforunately you would need a visa for Switzerland

I´m 100% sure because I live in Switzerland, and had corresponding contacts with the ministry of external affairs here.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 959#234959

Furthermore there was a sort-a-ridiculous situation, in which I managed to help out (by investing a weekend on the phone), however I do not recommend to repeat it:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=61830

Summary: Go to Austria, Italy, Spain, Andorra, France or even Liechtenstein for Skiing, but not Switzerland!

Any questions - ask

Rgds, Christian

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Hi,

I don't know the specifics of Switzerland's ascension to schengen. I do know that UK and Ireland residence cards are not accepted in lieu of visa.

What I would like to know though is whether the requirement for transit visa applies to EU family members as it is specifically excepts family members from visas.

It's all rather vague.

[ca.funke]

...

[ca.funke]

(...)I don't know the specifics of Switzerland's ascension to schengen. I do know that UK and Ireland residence cards are not accepted in lieu of visa.(...)

correct

What I would like to know though is whether the requirement for transit visa applies to EU family members as it is specifically excepts family members from visas.

Do you mean transit visas for Switzerland? It´s as follows: If you purely transit, you don´t need a visa. However, "transit" is only when you go from non-Schengen to non-Schengen.

If you go from non-Schengen to Schengen, or the other way around, it´s not transit, as the non-Schengen flight legally makes you enter Switzerland. (See also the example I linked to, problem was that they wanted to "transit" from London to Vienna, which legally is not a transit)

It's all rather vague.

I say the law is pretty clear, however the result of the rules are (insert swearword for "senseless").

Any questions, ask

[ca.funke]

...the problem is that if I need a visa we can't get any appointments, there are none in December

hi rolelero,

only reading about yout problem of not getting an appointment now.

You can read throught his thread:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=78365

It´s obligatory that you can get an appointment within 2 weeks!

I just had some contact with folks in the ministry of exterior here in Switzerland about that.

If you can read German, see this >>pdf<<, which is a reply to my corresponding complaint.

Summary: If you want to travel within 3 months from now, and you can´t get an appointment within 2 weeks, PM me, and we´ll work something out to see if we can speed them up.

Rgds, Christian

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

[quote="ca.funke"][quote="EUsmileWEallsmile"](...)I don't know the specifics of Switzerland's ascension to schengen. I do know that UK and Ireland residence cards are not accepted in lieu of visa.(...)[/quote]
correct :)

[quote="EUsmileWEallsmile"]What I would like to know though is whether the requirement for transit visa applies to EU family members as it is specifically excepts family members from visas.[/quote]
Do you mean transit visas for Switzerland? It´s as follows: If you purely transit, you don´t need a visa. However, "transit" is only when you go from non-Schengen to non-Schengen.

If you go from non-Schengen to Schengen, or the other way around, it´s not transit, as your non-Schengen flight legally makes you enter Switzerland, as the connecting flight after/before that is "domestic". (See also the example I linked to, problem was that they wanted to "transit" from London to Vienna, which legally is not a transit)

[quote="EUsmileWEallsmile"]It's all rather vague.[/quote]
I say the law is pretty clear, however the result of the rules are (insert swearword for "senseless").

Any questions, ask :!:[/quote]

Personally, I won't be visiting Switzerland - what a pity, I've heard it's beautiful, but expensive!

[ca.funke]

Personally, I won't be visiting Switzerland - what a pity, I've heard it's beautiful, but expensive!

Why not? Because of the EU-family-member visa regulations?

If this is so, I´d love if you would write a letter to the ministry of foreign affairs here, pointing out to them that they just lost a paying tourist because of their futile regulations.

The newspapers might also be interested, as losing tourists doesn´t go down well lately consdidering the currency situation...

...if you want to write to the ministry let me know, I´ll let you know addresses and contacts.

Rgds from beautiful but expensive Switzerland,
Christian

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

[quote="ca.funke"][quote="EUsmileWEallsmile"]Personally, I won't be visiting Switzerland - what a pity, I've heard it's beautiful, but expensive![/quote]
Why not? Because of the EU-family-member visa regulations?

If this is so, I´d love if you would write a letter to the ministry of foreign affairs here, pointing out to them that they just lost a paying tourist because of their futile regulations.

The newspapers might also be interested, as losing tourists doesn´t go down well lately consdidering the currency situation...

...if you want to write to the ministry let me know, I´ll let you know addresses and contacts.

Rgds from beautiful but expensive Switzerland,
Christian[/quote]

I had a good read of the Swiss EU agreement today. On the face of it, it appears to mirror the directive, but has some sticking points. For me, it would mean that my spouse would need to apply for a visa and pay a mandatory £15 courier charge for passport return. I don't ski, I'd consider visiting, but Switzerland is off the list for now.

BTW, I'm sure the Swiss are more than aware, but if they vote down the next agreement, they appear to vote down all previous ones as well.

[fysicus]

Yes, Switzerland does require a Schengenvisa for holders of a UK-issued residence card (EEA2). It is issued free of charge anyway.

It has all been discussed on this forum before, around the time that Switzerland joined Schengen

I still find the Swiss interpretation of EU law totally incomprehensible.

1. Before Switzerland joined Schengen, RC holders from UK could enter without visa even when travelling alone (my wife actually did it)
2. After Switzerland joined Schengen, they require a visa for this category

So, they require a visa for persons, who
a) had visa-free entry to Switzerland before, and
b) still have visa-free entry to all other Schengen countries

If you can see the logic in this, I recommend that you make an urgent appointment at the nearest psychiatric clinic!!

[fysicus]

If this is so, I´d love if you would write a letter to the ministry of foreign affairs here, pointing out to them that they just lost a paying tourist because of their futile regulations.

The newspapers might also be interested, as losing tourists doesn´t go down well lately consdidering the currency situation...

Christian, I would recommend that you actually do this, especially the newspapers!

I did actually write to the ministry some time ago, and their "explanation" was based on the fact that the Schengen Border Code refers at some occasions to Directive 2004/38 which is not valid in Switzerland, although there are bilateral agreements with the EU but these do not give so generous rights to non-EEA family members as the EU-directive (I don't know the details).
Despite the complex treaty situation, in the UK it is so that citizens of Switzerland (or Norway, another non-EU Schengencountry) have exactly the same rights as EU-citizens, including all the facilities for non-EEA family members. And if Switzerland considers itself a civilised country, you might expect reciprocity in this area!

And indeed, my wife and myself have not been to Switzerland since they joined Schengen!
Even though the visa itself is free, travelling to the embassy and taking a day off at work clearly is not. In fact, it is bloody expensive!

[ca.funke]

So, they require a visa for persons, who
a) had visa-free entry to Switzerland before, and
b) still have visa-free entry to all other Schengen countries

If you can see the logic in this, I recommend that you make an urgent appointment at the nearest psychiatric clinic!!

I outlined exactly the same to the ministry.

The reply I got is: 2004/38/EC is not correctly followed in the UK, since EU-family members cannot enter the UK without a visa. (This is, unfortunately, correct)

Next they say that 2004/38/EC is not always correctly followed by other EU-countries, since only some of them allow visa-free entry with a UK residence card. (This is, unfortunately, also correct)

Now the Swiss do not want to grant advantages, unilaterally and without reciprocity, which even EU-countries do not grant between themselves. This is also correct, since Swiss residence-permits do not allow entry into the UK.

(...)Nicht alle EU-Länder scheinen die Richtlinie umzusetzen. Da stellt sich dann für uns (die Schweiz) die Frage, ob wir einseitig Freiheiten gewähren sollen, welche innerhalb der EU untereinander nicht gewährt werden.(...)

Although this is so, it is still senseless and silly, since EU-family-members with UK residence permits are legally allowed to enter all EU countries, and hence they can enter Schengen, but not Switzerland.

Despite the complex treaty situation, in the UK it is so that citizens of Switzerland (or Norway, another non-EU Schengencountry) have exactly the same rights as EU-citizens, including all the facilities for non-EEA family members. And if Switzerland considers itself a civilised country, you might expect reciprocity in this area!

Here I´d disagree, since the UK is in clear breach of 2004/38/EC by not allowing EU-family-members to enter the UK without a visa. So the Swiss, albeit illogical, are not just plainly breaking the law like the UK.

And indeed, my wife and myself have not been to Switzerland since they joined Schengen!

Same here: We didn´t travel to the UK after we moved from Ireland to Switzerland. Before we did a few times (from Ireland), carrying a copy of the law, but luckily we were just never checked.

Christian, I would recommend that you actually do this, especially the newspapers!

I wrote a short letter to the editor of a Zürich newspaper. I doubt it´ll get printed. Should it be printed, I´ll post it here

[fysicus]

It is true that there are various inconsistencies and other errors in the transposition of directive 2004/38 into national law, but I don't find it a valid argument to defend the Swiss position in this matter. Whereever national legislation conflicts with the directive, the EU directive applies directly (with Switzerland as an exception of course), and numerous court cases have shown that.

The essence of the Schengen treaty is that if you are legal in one Schengencountry, then you are automatically legal in all Schengencountries and you can travel between all of them without any restrictions.

Furthermore, all EU countries follow the BRAX (MRAX) arrest of 2002, which grants entry for spouses of EU citizens as long as they travel together with their spouse and can prove their identity and marital status, regardless of having a visa or any other type of immigration document. The practical procedure in such cases is usually that you get a 14 day visa at the border, free of charge. In the UK you get a so called code 1A stamp. However, the difficulty is to get to the border in the first place as airlines or ferry operators may not allow you to board without visa.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Scenario: I have a UK issued Residence Card. I fly to Munich and enter Schengen normally. After a few beers, I then drive to Zurich. There is no border check (I assume).

Question: Have I legally entered Switzerland?

Question 2: What if I fly to Basel? Is there (still) an exit to France which I could use legally and an exit to Switzerland which would be illegal for me to use? Whose border guards man the border post for incoming non-Schengen passengers?

[fysicus]

Scenario: I have a UK issued Residence Card. I fly to Munich and enter Schengen normally. After a few beers, I then drive to Zurich. There is no border check (I assume).

Question: Have I legally entered Switzerland?

answer from me: yes
answer from Swiss government: NO!!

Indeed you can enter Switzerland via a land border (all neighbouring countries are Schengen as well) and probably will not checked.
However, if during your visit you come into contact with the police for whatever reason, they may check your documents and conclude that you entered the country illegally. Then it may be for a court to decide if the Swiss position is compatible with the Schengen treaty or not.

[Plum70]

My husband is Swiss and I hold a residence card. As has been rightly pointed out, before CH joined Schengen I could visit visa free based on my UK student visa. Now, even though I hold a RC and my husband is Swiss, I must have a valid Schengen visa and get stamped in and out of CH.

On the flip side, because of the EU-CH bilaterals, my husband is treated (almost) same as all other EEA/EU nationals living here even though CH is neither part of the EU nor EEA.

Don't see why CH makes the distinction when it makes more sense not to.

And yes, CH is expensive (though very beautiful), and apparently you can get better value and customer service in neighbouring Austria if you are an avid skier.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Yes, but Swiss German is uniquely wonderful to listen to (I am not at the stage of understanding).

[ca.funke]

It is true that there are various inconsistencies and other errors in the transposition of directive 2004/38 into national law, but I don't find it a valid argument to defend the Swiss position in this matter. Whereever national legislation conflicts with the directive, the EU directive applies directly (with Switzerland as an exception of course), and numerous court cases have shown that...

I do not defend the Swiss in this matter. What they do is stoopid.

However, the UK plainly breaks the law while the Swiss just cause some illogical outcomes through their Schengen-application.

I find it better to be illogical but legal, compared to breaking the law

Scenario: I have a UK issued Residence Card. I fly to Munich and enter Schengen normally. After a few beers, I then drive to Zurich. There is no border check (I assume).

After a few beers you shouldn´t drive

There is a customs-check, but no systematic border check. The same applies in Norway and Iceland (Schengen, but not EU).

Question: Have I legally entered Switzerland?

No. You can enter all of Schengen, but not Switzerland. That´s because 2004/38/EC is an EU law with EEA relevance. As a consequence you may even enter Liechtenstein, but NOT Switzerland. (There are no checks between Liechtenstein and Switzerland)

This is totally absurd, known to the authorities, and still not changed. Why they refuse to change this remains their secret.

Question 2: What if I fly to Basel? Is there (still) an exit to France which I could use legally and an exit to Switzerland which would be illegal for me to use? Whose border guards man the border post for incoming non-Schengen passengers?

There are 2 exits: One for France, one for Switzerland. Incoming Schengen passengers can proceed to France without any check and to Switzerland with the (usual) customs-only check.

Incoming non-Schengen passengers can choose to exit to France or Switzerland, passing all checks.

If you arrive from MUC (or indeed from anywhere else) with the said RC, you are only allowed to use the French exit, not the Swiss one!

[acme4242]

The EU-Swiss AFMP agreement does not provide for the exemption from the visa requirement of family members of EU citizens.
Details are in the Handbook instruction which goes along with the Schengen visa code

B. Operational instructions addressed to the consulates of Switzerland

Legal basis

Switzerland does not apply Directive 2004/38/CE but applies the Agreement of 21 June 1999
between the Swiss Confederation and the European Community and its Member States on the
free movement of persons (AFMP).

:

1.1. Differences between Directive 2004/38/EC and the AFMP

The definition of family members under the AFMP and Swiss national legislation is less
restrictive than the one under Article 2(2) (b) of Directive 2004/38/EC. Swiss national
legislation also confers the same rights to persons who do not fall within the above definitions
(see points 2.1 and 2.2 below). The facilities are granted to family members who travel alone
(irrespective of whether the purpose of the trip is to join the EU citizen or not) or accompany
the EU citizen.)

The AFMP does not provide for the exemption from the visa requirement of family members
of EU citizens. They are, however, exempted from the visa requirement, if they hold a valid
travel document and a residence permit listed in the List of residence permit issued by
Members States, Annex 2 .

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Your link to the handbook does not work for me. I offer instead a highlighted version I made a few months ago: SchengenVisaHandbook2010

[acme4242]

Your link to the handbook does not work for me. I offer instead a highlighted version I made a few months ago: SchengenVisaHandbook2010

thanks, updated now, its the bloody commission changing their web links again.
Handbook
http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/polici ... 620_en.pdf
Brussels, 19.3.2010
C(2010) 1620 final
COMMISSION DECISION of 19.3.2010
Establishing the Handbook for the processing of visa applications
and the modification of issued visas


I also notice the Swiss have added their own extra text to the list of
resident permits issued under 2004/38/EC by ROMANIA and BULGARIA
http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam/dat ... itel-e.pdf

ROMANIA
Please note: These residence permits do not entitle to a visa-free stay in the Schengen area, as
Romania has not yet become a Schengen member state.
:
BULGARIA
Please note: These residence permits do not entitle to a visa-free stay in the Schengen area, as
Bulgaria has not yet become a Schengen member state.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Sorry I mistyped. Should be: "After a few beers, I am driven (in luxury) to Zurich by my Autobahn certified EU spouse"