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I thought you already know Aimar, the EU embassies in AFRICA are not interested in a reason why your wife should be issued a visa under the directives other than looking for reasons why they should be denied their fundamental rights. the onus is on you to stay clear of apparent reasons they might be looking forIs it simpy the case the Irish would refuse saying '' one member states consider you a threat...blah blah...Or one member state considers your marriage one of convenience or will they actually look at our application on its own merits ?
taking aside dodgy reasons for refusal by the czechs, it should be challenged.BUT failure to disclose ANY information when asked will lead to certain & legimate refusal.Don't know why the Irish will be interested in the previous application.i doubt they will ask. Can the op first try out the UK under their laws. Since op is British and they have kids (so children are brits) why is spouse still in Nigeria?dalebutt wrote:I do not think not disclosing previous visa refusal would mean outright refusal as it's an EEA application, even the schengen countries do not share refusal information between themselves unless the applicant was banned or some other serious issue.
Previous visa refusal has never been a yardstick for decision making on an EEA application and should never affect decision making on EEA application, but to these lots the Directive is as good as when it was signed, they are little keen on upholding it outside the EU. you might as well just play by their rules.
Yes it could be a ground for refusal but that's if they will know if an applicant have been refused by a schengen country, they do not share that information between or have facility to share such information.walrusgumble wrote:taking aside dodgy reasons for refusal by the czechs, it should be challenged.BUT failure to disclose ANY information when asked will lead to certain & legimate refusal.Don't know why the Irish will be interested in the previous application.i doubt they will ask. Can the op first try out the UK under their laws. Since op is British and they have kids (so children are brits) why is spouse still in Nigeria?dalebutt wrote:I do not think not disclosing previous visa refusal would mean outright refusal as it's an EEA application, even the schengen countries do not share refusal information between themselves unless the applicant was banned or some other serious issue.
Previous visa refusal has never been a yardstick for decision making on an EEA application and should never affect decision making on EEA application, but to these lots the Directive is as good as when it was signed, they are little keen on upholding it outside the EU. you might as well just play by their rules.
I only meant "IF" they had asked. THey won't. If anything, they might only ask about previous Irish Visas only. Even if they asked, I don't really see how its relevant to Ireland. However.... I note what you say below.dalebutt wrote:
Yes it could be a ground for refusal but that's if they will know if an applicant have been refused by a schengen country, they do not share that information between or have facility to share such information.
You did not answer my question. Is the wife in Nigeria and why, and since when? THe background to the case is extremely odd. (What proofs of marriage etc did you / can you produce to rebut the marriage of convenience story)dalebutt wrote: And of course the Irish wont say they have refused the application on the grounds that the applicant have been refused visa by a EU country, but the chances are that the previous refusal would attract another insubstantial reason to refuse the applicant applicant by the IRISH, the EU embassies in AFRICA aren't just interested in the Directives some would even pretend no such thing exist.
UK spouse visa requirement is a bit tedious, well thats just my opinion.
Some of your questions would best be answered by the OP, but you know it doesn't take a rocket physicist to work that out, a marriage with children I'd be really upset if some VO would be so dumb to have refused me on that grounds too.walrusgumble wrote:I only meant "IF" they had asked. THey won't. If anything, they might only ask about previous Irish Visas only. Even if they asked, I don't really see how its relevant to Ireland. However.... I note what you say below.dalebutt wrote:
Yes it could be a ground for refusal but that's if they will know if an applicant have been refused by a schengen country, they do not share that information between or have facility to share such information.
You did not answer my question. Is the wife in Nigeria and why, and since when? THe background to the case is extremely odd. (What proofs of marriage etc did you / can you produce to rebut the marriage of convenience story)dalebutt wrote: And of course the Irish wont say they have refused the application on the grounds that the applicant have been refused visa by a EU country, but the chances are that the previous refusal would attract another insubstantial reason to refuse the applicant applicant by the IRISH, the EU embassies in AFRICA aren't just interested in the Directives some would even pretend no such thing exist.
UK spouse visa requirement is a bit tedious, well thats just my opinion.
What do you mean the visa requirement are a bit tedious, you are British? Do you really mean that you are not confident that your own country will also refuse?
Yes i assume the OP's wife is presently in Nigeria thus the proposition to apply at the IRISH embassy in Nigeria, and yes it's odd, but the oddness of it shouldn't be grounds for refusal though.Is the wife in Nigeria and why, and since when? THe background to the case is extremely odd
Sorry, I did not cop that you were not the OP. I did not mean to direct the questions towards you personally.dalebutt wrote:
Some of your questions would best be answered by the OP, but you know it doesn't take a rocket physicist to work that out, a marriage with children I'd be really upset if some VO would be so dumb to have refused me on that grounds too.
Something tells me one day Member States are going to seek to get Singh overruled. It is a good thing that the family in this case have children because the case of Akrich 2003 was not entirely overruled by Metock and a State would try to use it.dalebutt wrote: And yes UKBA will refuse an applicant for spouse visa without reservation, if the British spouse cannot show they earn enough to prove that their spouse wont be a burden on the state, £800 application fee and fear of rejection if finances are not in order, thats why most british citizen prefer to exercise their treaty rights and then go back to the UK using Surrinder singh.
Why is she in Nigeria? I assume she was once in the UK with UK spouse or did UK spouse live in Nigeria for a period. If she was in the UK, why did she leave? Removed?dalebutt wrote: Yes i assume the OP's wife is presently in Nigeria thus the proposition to apply at the IRISH embassy in Nigeria, and yes it's odd, but the oddness of it shouldn't be grounds for refusal though.
No, no hard feelings, I already suspect you thought i was the OP ,Sorry, I did not cop that you were not the OP. I did not mean to direct the questions towards you personally.
Decision on visa for family member should not be preconceived, or be subjected to suspicion of the visa officer, clarification should be sought in the first place, I assume if the OP's wife had applied from inside America there would have been no such thing as suspicionI am trying to see why the Czechs had reason or suspicion.
Fair enough, but I have asked because I wanted to see what you are up against and most importantly, not to make assumptions. I have an idea of the problems and the spouses status in the UK. I take it then that she did live in the UK at some time. It appears there are two sides to this story, whether the other side is right or wrong.Aimar wrote:@Dalebutt and Walrusgrumble, legitimate questions, however for reasons i'd rather not go into, my preference is to have no dealings whatsoever with UK immigration under domestic rules, my family and I have been treated in an appalling manner. As a UK citizen born and bred i do expect a somewhat higher standard from the authorities but i digress.
I can think of no earthly reason why the Czech's would be suspicious of anything, the wife and I have been married six years our kids are UK citizens, we lived together in Nigeria for four years, and I have been shuttling backwards and forwards for the last two. We provided our marriage certificate my passport as well as those of our kids. The manner of our refusal was so ridiculous as to make a mockery of the directive if you are applying from outside of the EU and in particular sub-saharan Africa.
THis current Commission is utterly toothless. 3 Cases involving Citizen Children prove that. Secondly, its for the Court to decide not Commission, which they themselves will probably do what you suggest. Thirdly, if member states wanted too, they could change the laws and / or Treaty and the Commission and the Courts would have very little to do to stop it. Your probably right though above the survival of Singh (ie nothing will be done)dalebutt wrote:No, no hard feelings, I already suspect you thought i was the OP ,Sorry, I did not cop that you were not the OP. I did not mean to direct the questions towards you personally.
If you ever came accross the OP initial refusal notice by the Czech embassy earlier this year on this forum, the op stated he was living in Nigeria with his family. the children are already British citizen from what the op stated in his previous posts.
I do not think member states would make any move to scrap surrinder singh and if they do, the commission would stand against it, and it would be down to the CJEU to make that decision it's not up to member states even if they do not so want it.
In Netherlands, dutch citizen married to non eea would get a schengen visa for their spouse to Belgium, exercise their rights in Belgium and then move to the netherlands it's not just British citizen that find national immigration policies a bit rigorous.
Decision on visa for family member should not be preconceived, or be subjected to suspicion of the visa officer, clarification should be sought in the first place, I assume if the OP's wife had applied from inside America there would have been no such thing as suspicionI am trying to see why the Czechs had reason or suspicion.
You know some people do not like to share too much information on public forum, could be so in this case, well am just speculating
Yes, EU law does not ask questions about WHY someone decides to choose to move to another EU State. The CJEU have consequently dismissed the notion of abuse. From your case, this is a real family.Aimar wrote:[To answer your question. Here is what I believe the Czechs think.
They are looking at Akrich (which yes was overruled substantially by Metock - Metock 2008 is very important for you) and believe that ye are trying to "abuse" EU law in order to get back to Britain via Czech Rep as the UK, as we all know, like Ireland, will be very slow to give status to certain non EU national spouses of British Nationals. ]
You could well be right, however I do believe the directive does give EU citizens the right to ensconce oneself in another member state even if it is for the express purpose of taking advantage of community law, the judgement is in how effective the subject exercises its treaty rights. In any event the refusal by the Czech's (second time around) was on the spurrious basis that my marriage was conducted solely to take advantage of the directive.
We have not yet put in an application to Ireland but are considering it seriously. I was more concerned about the impact of previous refusals and yes, we will definitely challenge the decision of the Czech's . Many thanks for the links provided particularly C-503/03.
Any luck with the Irish yet?Aimar wrote:@Walrusgrumble. We have tried getting information from the Irish Embassy, unfortunately we are refered to the outsourced visa application centre or their web-site. I run a small consultancy which would work just as well in ireland (fingers crossed). There's nothing for it but to give it a go and see what happens. Many thanks for your help.