obligation to carry ID in the Republic of Ireland

[ca.funke]

Inspired through >>this topic<<, I decided to restart my career in lodging complaints with the Commission.

As soon as I have a ticket number I´ll post it, hoping to get more than 3 registered signatures

So here we go:

[quote="my complaint against the ROI"]---------- Original message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:57
Subject: Complaint against ID-obligations in the Republic of Ireland
To: EU Commission - Complaints <sg-plaintes@ec.europa.eu>

Dear Madam or Sir,

I hereby lodge a complaint against the Republic of Ireland.

Article 12 of the "Immigration Act 2004" states:

[quote="Immigration Act 2004"]12.—(1) Every non-national shall produce on demand, unless he or she gives a satisfactory explanation of the circumstances which prevent him or her from so doing—
(a) a valid passport or other equivalent document, issued by or on behalf of an authority recognised by the Government, which establishes his or her identity and nationality, and
(b) in case he or she is registered or deemed to be registered under this Act, his or her registration certificate.

(2) A non-national who contravenes this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) In this section “on demandâ€

[Southern_Sky]

Immigration Act 2004 wrote:

''(4) This section does not apply to—
(a) a non-national who is under the age of 16 years, or
(b) a non-national who was born in Ireland.''

Whats about 'non-nationals' who have been naturalised?


So will the Irish Gov't try as the UK tried (& failed)...to implement National ID cards for all... ? Me thinks there's no national budget available to finance such an endeavour.

[9jeirean]

Whats about 'non-nationals' who have been naturalised?

Then they can no longer be referred to as "non-national". You are either an Irish citizen or you are not. That exactly is absurdity of the section-12 of immigration act 04. If the law does not require me as an Irish citizen to carry any form of ID, it's no business of any Garda how I came about my Irish citizenship.

I say good riddance to another pile of rubbish.


9jeirean

[ca.funke]

received a reply from the Commission:

just as >>acme4242 posted<<, the Commission sais that the following excludes EU-citizens from this law:

Application of Act. 2.—(1) This Act shall not apply to any of the following persons, that is to say:

(...)

(2) Nothing in this Act shall derogate from—

(a) any of the obligations of the State under the treaties governing the European Communities within the meaning of the European Communities Acts 1972 to 2003,

(b) any act adopted by an institution of those Communities,
(...)

As such they want to close the case.

Legally they may be right, but I still think the provisions are indefensible.

My reply to the Commission:

Dear Commission,

thanks for your reply of December 15th 2011, in which you forward the Irish authorities point of view.

While Article 2(2) of the Immigration Act legally ensures that "the obligation to present, on request, a valid travel document" does not apply to EU-citizens, the following factual problem persists: How shall a member of An Garda Síochána (Irish police) differentiate between a non-EU and an EU citizen, while only being allowed to ask one of these groups for ID?

Example:
Chinese national lives in Ireland and lawfully carries ID with him. Because of his looks, people, including An Garda Síochána, assume he´s not an EU-national and thus he is occasionally asked for ID.

Same person becomes naturalised as an EU-citizen, hence lawfully no longer carries ID. Since his looks do not change, he continues to be asked for ID. When lawfully and honestly replying "I am an EU citizen and hence do not have to carry ID", said person could be arrested on suspicion of breach of immigration laws, until he proves otherwise. This, although An Garda Síochána are in breach of the law, since they are not even allowed to ask him for ID.

See also:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 37954.html

Summary:
While this Irish law may be legally acceptable, I still find the practical implications indefensible: In practice EU citizens legally NOT carrying ID may be worse off than third-country nationals carrying ID. It could also be said: Everyone not looking European should better carry ID. Otherwise you may be subject to suspicions which are in itself illegal, but cannot be avoided.


However, I agree, from a purely legal point of view the case can be closed.

Thanks and regards,
Christian

I felt like adding "If that´s what you want Europe to look like..." to the last sentence, but I managed to stop myself.

[walrusgumble]

[quote="ca.funke"]Inspired through >>this topic<<, I decided to restart my career in lodging complaints with the Commission.

As soon as I have a ticket number I´ll post it, hoping to get more than 3 registered signatures

So here we go:

[quote="my complaint against the ROI"]---------- Original message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:57
Subject: Complaint against ID-obligations in the Republic of Ireland
To: EU Commission - Complaints <sg-plaintes@ec.europa.eu>

Dear Madam or Sir,

I hereby lodge a complaint against the Republic of Ireland.

Article 12 of the "Immigration Act 2004" states:

[quote="Immigration Act 2004"]12.—(1) Every non-national shall produce on demand, unless he or she gives a satisfactory explanation of the circumstances which prevent him or her from so doing—
(a) a valid passport or other equivalent document, issued by or on behalf of an authority recognised by the Government, which establishes his or her identity and nationality, and
(b) in case he or she is registered or deemed to be registered under this Act, his or her registration certificate.

(2) A non-national who contravenes this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) In this section “on demandâ€

[walrusgumble]

Immigration Act 2004 wrote:

''(4) This section does not apply to—
(a) a non-national who is under the age of 16 years, or
(b) a non-national who was born in Ireland.''

Whats about 'non-nationals' who have been naturalised?


So will the Irish Gov't try as the UK tried (& failed)...to implement National ID cards for all... ? Me thinks there's no national budget available to finance such an endeavour.

"Whats about 'non-nationals' who have been naturalised? ", I am assuming, from the wink, that you are joking

once your naturalised, you are no longer an Non Irish Citizen.

Once naturalised, your GNIB card is taken from you, because you no longer need it. The legislation no longer has any application to you.


As for id requirements, there is no public good will towards the notion of having to carry ID cards. THis is not Nazi Germany (1933-1945) or Communist Russia. Irish people would not accept it, even if government had the money to properly implement it (which they fail to implement)

[walrusgumble]

Ah,

I am just after reading the rest of the thread. So ignore my first post. I had not realized that the Commission had responded, but there you go, I was correct. If I had noticed the Commission's reply I would not have responded

[walrusgumble]

received a reply from the Commission:

just as >>acme4242 posted<<, the Commission sais that the following excludes EU-citizens from this law:

Application of Act. 2.—(1) This Act shall not apply to any of the following persons, that is to say:

(...)

(2) Nothing in this Act shall derogate from—

(a) any of the obligations of the State under the treaties governing the European Communities within the meaning of the European Communities Acts 1972 to 2003,

(b) any act adopted by an institution of those Communities,
(...)

As such they want to close the case.

Legally they may be right, but I still think the provisions are indefensible.

My reply to the Commission:

Dear Commission,

thanks for your reply of December 15th 2011, in which you forward the Irish authorities point of view.

While Article 2(2) of the Immigration Act legally ensures that "the obligation to present, on request, a valid travel document" does not apply to EU-citizens, the following factual problem persists: How shall a member of An Garda Síochána (Irish police) differentiate between a non-EU and an EU citizen, while only being allowed to ask one of these groups for ID?

Example:
Chinese national lives in Ireland and lawfully carries ID with him. Because of his looks, people, including An Garda Síochána, assume he´s not an EU-national and thus he is occasionally asked for ID.

Same person becomes naturalised as an EU-citizen, hence lawfully no longer carries ID. Since his looks do not change, he continues to be asked for ID. When lawfully and honestly replying "I am an EU citizen and hence do not have to carry ID", said person could be arrested on suspicion of breach of immigration laws, until he proves otherwise. This, although An Garda Síochána are in breach of the law, since they are not even allowed to ask him for ID.

See also:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 37954.html

Summary:
While this Irish law may be legally acceptable, I still find the practical implications indefensible: In practice EU citizens legally NOT carrying ID may be worse off than third-country nationals carrying ID. It could also be said: Everyone not looking European should better carry ID. Otherwise you may be subject to suspicions which are in itself illegal, but cannot be avoided.


However, I agree, from a purely legal point of view the case can be closed.

Thanks and regards,
Christian

I felt like adding "If that´s what you want Europe to look like..." to the last sentence, but I managed to stop myself.

What do you mean that the justification is indefensible?

EU LAW HAS ABSOLUTELY NO JURISDICTION TO MAKE ANY COMMENT!!!!!

It is outside the jurisdiction of EU law. You will find nothing in either TFEU or TEU that supports your view that the EU has competence in NON EU areas when dealing with third country nationals.

It is time for you to start to learn the basic concepts of EU law. Try the first 10 articles of the TEU.


Your example will not lead the Chinese - Irish National in Court or summons with a charge sheet. If it is an unlawful arrest, that person may report the matter to the Ombudsman. If he is detained, he will be detained illegally, and the person may sue the State. THe person will have lots of avenues for redress under Domestic law.


From the Naturalized Chinese I know , for a few of them, the level of command of their spoken English is terrible, so it would be no wonder the Gardaí would be suspicious.


Your highlighting a once in a blue moon honest mistake and blowing it up disproportionately,( no matter how valid the complaint is)


Your problem should be addressed to the Garda Commissioner and Ombudsman not the Commission

Oh, that is very big of you to agree that the case could be closed. ha ha . They were not asking for permission

[ca.funke]

The only Non EU residence who are required to hold cards are those who are present in IReland under IRISH LAW and NOT EU Law, primarily, NON EU NAtionals (who are not here under EU law) So, the Commission has absolutely NO jurisdiction.

NON-EU nationals are required to carry ID, EU-nationals are not required to carry ID. I was wrong in my first post, and just posted that I learned otherwise now. Just wondering why you refer to my first post here?

Moreover, the EU does not prevent member states from requiring ID Cards.

That is correct. However it is only legal to ask EU-citizens to carry ID, if locals are also required to carry ID:

Article 26
Checks
Member States may carry out checks on compliance with any
requirement deriving from their national legislation for non-
nationals always to carry their registration certificate or resi-
dence card, provided that the same requirement applies to their
own nationals as regards their identity card. In the event of
failure to comply with this requirement, Member States may
impose the same sanctions as those imposed on their own
nationals for failure to carry their identity card.

Ireland is also, not part of the Schengen.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Very few EU citizens, if any , will ever be arrested for carrying cards in Ireland.

I usually do carry my ID, even if it´s not required. I shall sincerely hope that I won´t be arrested for carrying it?!

http://europa.eu/travel/doc/index_en.htm
"There are no longer any frontier controls at the borders between 22 EU countries. This is thanks to the Schengen rules which are part of EU law. These rules remove all internal border controls but put in place effective controls at the external borders of the EU and introduce a common visa policy. All EU countries are full Schengen members except for Bulgaria, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania and the United Kingdom. Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are also Schengen members but are not in the EU.

You will therefore need to present a valid passport or ID card when travelling to the five non-Schengen countries and when entering or leaving the EU at the external borders.

Carry them when travelling in the EU because they may be required for identification or security purposes. Be aware that the only valid ID is the one obtained from national authorities. Check the Public Register of authentic identity and travel document"


Have a read through this.
http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/about_the_e ... dex_en.htm

Maybe that´s where the confusion is from:

For this topic I am not (and never was) talking about carrying ID while travelling, I am talking about carrying ID in everyday-life, such as when commuting from home to work, going for shopping or taking the dog for a walk around the block.

[ca.funke]

What do you mean that the justification is indefensible?

EU LAW HAS ABSOLUTELY NO JURISDICTION TO MAKE ANY COMMENT!!!!!

It is outside the jurisdiction of EU law. You will find nothing in either TFEU or TEU that supports your view that the EU has competence in NON EU areas when dealing with third country nationals.

It is time for you to start to learn the basic concepts of EU law. Try the first 10 articles of the TEU.


Your example will not lead the Chinese - Irish National in Court or summons with a charge sheet. If it is an unlawful arrest, that person may report the matter to the Ombudsman. If he is detained, he will be detained illegally, and the person may sue the State. THe person will have lots of avenues for redress under Domestic law.


From the Naturalized Chinese I know , for a few of them, the level of command of their spoken English is terrible, so it would be no wonder the Gardaí would be suspicious.


Your highlighting a once in a blue moon honest mistake and blowing it up disproportionately,( no matter how valid the complaint is)


Your problem should be addressed to the Garda Commissioner and Ombudsman not the Commission

Oh, that is very big of you to agree that the case could be closed. ha ha . They were not asking for permission

Instead of answering point by point, I´ll give you a summary.

First of all I am not (and never was) talking about carrying ID while travelling, I am talking about carrying ID in everyday-life, such as when commuting from home to work, going for shopping or taking the dog for a walk around the block.

The EU has no jurisdiction concerning the relation between Ireland and 3rd-country-nationals, but it does have jurisdiction on the relation between Ireland and EU-nationals.


The piece of legislation that you so passionately defend, effectively causes the following:

• Irish nationals and other EU-nationals (and their family-members) are not required to carry ID.
• All other human beings present in Ireland are required to carry ID, always!
• Now a Garda becomes genuinely suspicious of a person, for whatever reason.
  • The suspect sais "I am an EU citizen, lawfully not carrying ID".
  • If the Garda insists on checking the person, and it later turns out the person is indeed an EU-citizen, the Garda is in trouble.
  • Otherwise the Garda may have caught an illegal immigrant.

My question is: How shall the Garda know?

I think it makes the Gardí´s life unnecessarily hard.

I think the same should apply for all, one of the following:

• All are obliged to carry ID, otherwise they may be held for establishing their identity and are guilty of an offence.
• All are encouraged to carry ID, otherwise they may be held for establishing their identity but are not guilty of an offence.
  • Incidentally the case in many central European countries.
• No-one is obliged to carry anything, rendering effective checks impossible.

Each would be logically comprehensive, the current scenario is not.

And, just to repeat it: I thought the current scenario is illegal because I did not know about 2(2). My fault, mea culpa, I just didn´t know. So it´ll continue to be the stoopid rule as it is, nothing I can do... But good to know that at least some people like arbitrary, unclear laws

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It is a very nice escape clause attached to the end of the Irish ID law. Technically it covers the requirements of EU law, but ...

The reality is actually not so pretty or legal. The law is causing those covered by EU free movement law to be arrested because they do not produce the ID that (in theory) they are not required to produce.

I will find the reference from an Irish lawyer who was talking about her client's arrest.

[walrusgumble]

The only Non EU residence who are required to hold cards are those who are present in IReland under IRISH LAW and NOT EU Law, primarily, NON EU NAtionals (who are not here under EU law) So, the Commission has absolutely NO jurisdiction.

NON-EU nationals are required to carry ID, EU-nationals are not required to carry ID. I was wrong in my first post, and just posted that I learned otherwise now. Just wondering why you refer to my first post here?

And I apologize. I had not noticed that you had acknowledged that you were wrong. I had not noticed your post that shown that the Commission had quickly responded to your post.

I am sorry, I was in the wrong to comment. As I said in my second post, had I read the thread completely, I would not have commented, so I am sorry.

That is correct. However it is only legal to ask EU-citizens to carry ID, if locals are also required to carry ID:
[quote="2004/38/EC

Yes, you are correct. As far as I am aware, EU citizens are not expected to carry them around because Irish people are not expected.

Look at Article 8 of the Directive 2004/38 for example, this allows a state to punish an immigrant for not registering .This is pointless in Ireland because Irish people don't have to register.

You realise (taking away the valid example) that the 2004 Act won't concern an Non EU person who is a family member of an EU person. Non EU person has the same rights and protection as the EU person as per Directive 2004 / 38

I usually do carry my ID, even if it´s not required. I shall sincerely hope that I won´t be arrested for carrying it?!

It is wise that you carry it. I acknowledge and accept that the Gardaí especially the GNIB can be ignorant people.

For this topic I am not (and never was) talking about carrying ID while travelling, I am talking about carrying ID in everyday-life, such as when commuting from home to work, going for shopping or taking the dog for a walk around the block.

I know what you were talking about. I accept that the link is slightly different. However, it makes sense to still always have such documents on your person when travelling around , even if it is some form of ID. Hardly always a passport though, that would be mad.

You know except that 2004 Act does not really concern anyone who has rights under EU law?

Sorry, again, I would not bother uttering anything had I read your second post.

[walrusgumble]

It is a very nice escape clause attached to the end of the Irish ID law. Technically it covers the requirements of EU law, but ...

It had to exclude situations concerning EU law, or it would be a breach of EU law and the op would be entirely justified. No different with other countries.

The reality is actually not so pretty or legal. The law is causing those covered by EU free movement law to be arrested because they do not produce the ID that (in theory) they are not required to produce.

Since you purport that, and I don't necessarily deny that it happens, how many actually really do get arrested? I would wager, very few (unless, sadly, they are Black, I accept then it may be common). If they are arrested they are free to sue and make complaints to the police.

Does a driving licence contain a person's nationality? People could carry around some form of id and proof of nationality, just out of habit. I know that I do.

I will find the reference from an Irish lawyer who was talking about her client's arrest.

I do not deny that it happens, I have read reports myself, its embarrassing especially the stuff about the police's reaction, but at least they have redress. But is it a common occurrence?

[ca.funke]

Hi walrusgumble,

I guess now we´re on one page and sort-of agreeing on things.

However, one more thing:

...that the Commission had quickly responded to your post...

Do you mean "quickly" as in "the reply is short" (I´d agree, it´s 1 page not much more than what I wrote), or "quickly" as in "they were fast to reply"? The latter would lie in the eye of the beholder: I sent the original question to the Commission on March 29th 2011, their reply came on December 15th 2011.

Regards, Christian

[walrusgumble]

Instead of answering point by point, I´ll give you a summary.

First of all I am not (and never was) talking about carrying ID while travelling, I am talking about carrying ID in everyday-life, such as when commuting from home to work, going for shopping or taking the dog for a walk around the block.

I know you were not. But as I said in another post, its wise to hold onto something. Many "illegals" don't get caught at the border or airport but later (just a comparison, a bad one I admit)

The EU has no jurisdiction concerning the relation between Ireland and 3rd-country-nationals, but it does have jurisdiction on the relation between Ireland and EU-nationals.

It does, but Immigration Act as you have now learned, is irrelevant. I would imagined if I had got my post in before the Commission, you would have slated me and told me that I was wrong.

The piece of legislation that you so passionately defend, effectively causes the following:

"Passionately defended"? They are strong words. I simply pointed out that you were wrong. You were kind of getting on your high horse. You would have justifiably been accused of distorting the truth. Since you quoted a provision from legislation, you would be expected to have known what the whole piece of legislation would have said.

If I had responded quicker, you would have hammered me and insist that I was wrong etc, have a huge argy bargy, only for you to stay silent after being proven wrong by a second source, the Commission.

• Irish nationals and other EU-nationals (and their family-members) are not required to carry ID.
• All other human beings present in Ireland are required to carry ID, always!

Oh lord, One World Theorists here. Now I now where your coming from. Next you will be saying the ID requirements are against Human Rights (despite many other countries, possible even your own) carrying them out, an invasion of privacy and some how comparison to branding cows.

Its a very small price to pay. It is a proportionate way of knowing very quickly, what Non EU person is legal or not, and if legal, what their entitlements are in the country. It is not a burdensome requirement, get real. Only illegals or people with false id have to fear this. Even if people forget their cards (plausible) they can insist on getting someone to bring them into the police station like a driving licence or car insurance (when stopped) You are told in advance what the law is, so abide by it to the best of your ability.

Now a Garda becomes genuinely suspicious of a person, for whatever reason.

• The suspect sais "I am an EU citizen, lawfully not carrying ID".
• If the Garda insists on checking the person, and it later turns out the person is indeed an EU-citizen, the Garda is in trouble.
• Otherwise the Garda may have caught an illegal immigrant.

[/list]
My question is: How shall the Garda know?

Actually, the Gardaí's powers have been curtailed. Section 13 (or 12) of that Act was deemed UNCONSTITUTIONAL recently. Powers of Garda. I can't remember the case.

A garda has a power to search and arrest if suspicious of a crime being committed. eg being illegal. They get a lot of hassle if they are wrong. Any one genuine never has to worry too much. The person is Better off carrying something with them.

To be fair to the Garda, he ain't going around asking to search every "foreign" looking person. It tends only to be on the Northern Border or if you have come to the adverse attention of the Gardaí for a suspected crime (most of the time)

I think it makes the Gardí´s life unnecessarily hard.

Common sense will sort it out. He has powers to search and arrest on suspicion via other legislation (non immigration) they will be fine with not tripping on power. All relax.

I think the same should apply for all, one of the following:

• All are obliged to carry ID, otherwise they may be held for establishing their identity and are guilty of an offence.

Eh NO. Why should Irish people have to do it? It will be obvious that they are no foreign. Its the foreigners problem not the Irish. It still does not change the fact that foreigner will still fail to comply with the law. We don't live in a Communist State. Any naturalized person, it will happen a few times, yes its embarrassing but you won't ever face court and you can sue for wrongful arrest. These problems are not common

[*]All are encouraged to carry ID, otherwise they may be held for establishing their identity but are not guilty of an offence.

Drivers licence, ID cards for the youngsters for drinking, ATM cards, PPS cards, Medical Cards. Its a fact of life that you will always have some kind of id on you. Non EU nationals and Non EU nationals who are members of EU families, need a card that says they HAVE PERMISSION TO BE IN IRELAND>

[*]Incidentally the case in many central European countries.[/list][*]No-one is obliged to carry anything, rendering effective checks impossible.[/list]

I was referring to the past. Does France have to? Germany?

These are places you speak of (and mainland Europe) have cross border movement that is very very very regular. We are an island. effort has to be made to cross over.

And, just to repeat it: I thought the current scenario is illegal because I did not know about 2(2).

You learned you lesson. Read legislation in FULL. For Irish law, ALWAYS read Section 2 as you will know who it applies to.

. So it´ll continue to be the stoopid rule as it is, nothing I can do... But good to know that at least some people like arbitrary, unclear laws

How the talk to is it arbitrary and unclear?

For stupid and lazy people who won't read legislation it maybe. I don't think you are stupid, so what is your excuse?

Arbitrary ? How? The legislation is clear, it applies to Non EU people who get status under Irish law only. There is no discretion.

Non EU people under Irish Law have a different legal basis to residence compared to those under EU law.

If you suggest that its discrimination, you really need to learn what "LEGAL" discrimination means (ie the one that deals with justifiable difference in treatment)

[walrusgumble]

Hi walrusgumble,

I guess now we´re on one page and sort-of agreeing on things.

However, one more thing:

...that the Commission had quickly responded to your post...

Do you mean "quickly" as in "the reply is short" (I´d agree, it´s 1 page not much more than what I wrote), or "quickly" as in "they were fast to reply"? The latter would lie in the eye of the beholder: I sent the original question to the Commission on March 29th 2011, their reply came on December 15th 2011.

Regards, Christian

When I started typing my first post, the Commission this morning, I think the Commission had yet to respond or you had yet to send your second post. I was slow typing it mind. By the time I posted my first post, I noticed that you had already posted up the Commission's response, thus making my post a bit pointless. To be honest I did not read the dates of your posts. So maybe I am wrong.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Ok, this is the point at which I suggest we should all go outside and have a tea and enjoy the sunshine (??) and fresh air (??).

The law, as written, is misleading and is bound to be incorrectly enforced. Suing the police is an option for very few people. I certainly would not want to do it.

[walrusgumble]

Ok, this is the point at which I suggest we should all go outside and have a tea and enjoy the sunshine (??) and fresh air (??).

The law, as written, is misleading and is bound to be incorrectly enforced. Suing the police is an option for very few people. I certainly would not want to do it.

Learn to read. The law is written in plain English. It is not misleading. If the Gardaí act in the manner that the OP suggests, then they are acting outside their own legislation. 2004 Act does not allow them to do these things. Mistakes can happen however, but, they can be punished.

Nice to see you won't or are unable to point out how common these types of incidents are.

I'm off for a refreshing nice cup of tea. Sun Shine? This is Ireland, Winter Ireland we are talking about

Next time people go complaining to the Commission, make sure ye have yer facts right.

Suing the police? You can via habeas Corpus if required and legal aid will be available. But the police will be very quick to realise the errors of their ways once it is proven that you are who you say you are. People should not worry only guilty people should worry

[ca.funke]

Oh lord, One World Theorists here. Now I now where your coming from. Next you will be saying the ID requirements are against Human Rights (despite many other countries, possible even your own) carrying them out, an invasion of privacy and some how comparison to branding cows.

Its a very small price to pay....

• All are obliged to carry ID, otherwise they may be held for establishing their identity and are guilty of an offence.

Eh NO. Why should Irish people have to do it? It will be obvious that they are no foreign...

Carrying ID is a "very small price to pay", but Irish people still shouldn´t have to, because everyone can easily know that they´re Irish? Just like a Chinese national, who was naturalised today? Yesterday he was clearly Chinese, and today after the ceremony, god! The difference!


Phew...

My personal favourite is this strategy:

• All are encouraged to carry ID, otherwise they may be held for establishing their identity but are not guilty of an offence.

This is incidentally the case in Germany and in Switzerland.

I always feel good to carry ID, but when I forget it I neither mind nor worry.

This brings me to my last comment in this matter:

I just wanted to update this thread by posting the >>reply from the Commission<<. I wasn´t planning to trigger this whole conversation. So now I´ll just stick to Directive´s advice:

Ok, this is the point at which I suggest we should all go outside and have a tea and enjoy the sunshine (??) and fresh air (??),,.

and have a tea.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The law, as written, is misleading and is bound to be incorrectly enforced. Suing the police is an option for very few people. I certainly would not want to do it.

Learn to read. The law is written in plain English. It is not misleading. If the Gardaí act in the manner that the OP suggests, then they are acting outside their own legislation. 2004 Act does not allow them to do these things. Mistakes can happen however, but, they can be punished.

Nice to see you won't or are unable to point out how common these types of incidents are.

I'm off for a refreshing nice cup of tea. Sun Shine? This is Ireland, Winter Ireland we are talking about

Next time people go complaining to the Commission, make sure ye have yer facts right.

Suing the police? You can via habeas Corpus if required and legal aid will be available. But the police will be very quick to realise the errors of their ways once it is proven that you are who you say you are. People should not worry only guilty people should worry

Wow. You seem surprisingly angry.

Can you point out where it says clearly that this ID law does not apply to my non-EU wife when she visits Ireland with me? Maybe you can put it in a very clear simple extract of the law so that it can be easily carried in leu of non-required ID? Because I do not think I would be able to put it in such a form that a cop-on-the-street would be able to easily understand and use.

I should also appologize that I have not got the reference for you yet. It is actually on my computer at home. Would you mind waiting until I get to it?

As I said, I think suing the police is a very bad option. Painful, expensive. And unfortunately Habeas Corpus would not help you much in this case. Once again, my dear wife would not want to or be able to use subtle EU law or common law arguments in such a situation.

Only the guilty should worry about unclear laws? I am not sure I agree. And see the original post for examples: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=74873

[acme4242]

This is what happens.
http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/news-bul ... n-issue-32

The Immigrant Council of Ireland has written to the Minister for Justice,
Equality and Law Reform, asking him to investigate the unlawful detention
of an Irish citizen on “immigration grounds” on November 4.The man, who
was born in China, was pulled over by gardaí in relation to a road traffic
matter and asked to show his passport. Despite showing two other forms
of identification and informing the officer he was an Irish citizen, he was
taken to Kevin Street Garda Station, searched and placed in a cell until his
wife came to the station with his passport. He was then released without
charge.The An Garda Síochána Press Office confirmed to RTE’s Liveline
programme that the man was arrested on suspicion of having committed
an offence under Section 12 of the Immigration Act, something it is
impossible for an Irish citizen to do.

While elsewhere, in the US, if you tell a police officer you are an American
Citizen, that is the end of it, the police could not demand anything else.
like a passport. The Idea is to protect US Citizens inside the US from the
police. You can only demand Passports at the port of entry.

While some may say this is a loophole, its the only way to protect citizens
in their own country if they have a different colour or accent from what
police consider their white American norm.

But in March 2011 After 7 years, the clearly bad Irish ID law is declared unconstitutional
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 37954.html

The decision by Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns to rule section 12 of the 2004
Act unconstitutional means the Garda can no longer rely on this
mechanism to demand presentation of ID on threat of conviction. The
Department of Justice said last night it was studying the implications, and
whether it should appeal.

It is understood justice officials believe other legal instruments may be
used as a basis to demand presentation of ID

[walrusgumble]

Just like a Chinese national, who was naturalised today? Yesterday he was clearly Chinese, and today after the ceremony, god! The difference!

Legally, yes. Did the Chinese National who naturalised today get stopped by the police? Did he get arrested and detained? Link with that? Ok, I know what you mean, but how many have actually being stopped and detained over the past 5 years? Things like this, the Immigrant Council would have complained about. Is it a regular occurrence?

It still no justification for an Irish person to have to do something that he never had to do before.

Your being a tad bit hysterical.

Phew...

My personal favourite is this strategy:

• All are encouraged to carry ID, otherwise they may be held for establishing their identity but are not guilty of an offence.[/list

Everyone carries some form of ID anyway. Making a mountain out of a mohill.

This is incidentally the case in Germany and in Switzerland.

Countries with borders with other EU states and who are in the Schegen. Ireland is an isolate island and is not part of Schegen. People knew these problems or should have known these problems before coming to Ireland. If not they were stupid.

I always feel good to carry ID, but when I forget it I neither mind nor worry.

Good to hear that you are responsible. I can id too. YEah, you can forget it that is easy. But how many times have YOU being stopped arrested and detained? If so, it was illegal and you can sue (assuming 2004 act did not apply) You definitely won't be going to court once you spoke to an intelligent police officer.

But, you should have known the rules when you came here. You must have a driver licence and insurance evidence when driving, why not id? If you forget the licence or insurance, all you have to do is go to the station later (if you were stopped by gardai) and produce same. No different if you were dealing with an intelligent officer

This brings me to my last comment in this matter:

I just wanted to update this thread by posting the >>reply from the Commission<<. I wasn´t planning to trigger this whole conversation. So now I´ll just stick to Directive´s advice:

Ok, this is the point at which I suggest we should all go outside and have a tea and enjoy the sunshine (??) and fresh air (??),,.

and have a tea.

Grand, it was good clean fun. Still see no sunshine though.

[walrusgumble]

This is what happens.
http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/news-bul ... n-issue-32

The Immigrant Council of Ireland has written to the Minister for Justice,
Equality and Law Reform, asking him to investigate the unlawful detention
of an Irish citizen on “immigration grounds” on November 4.The man, who
was born in China, was pulled over by gardaí in relation to a road traffic
matter and asked to show his passport. Despite showing two other forms
of identification and informing the officer he was an Irish citizen, he was
taken to Kevin Street Garda Station, searched and placed in a cell until his
wife came to the station with his passport. He was then released without
charge.The An Garda Síochána Press Office confirmed to RTE’s Liveline
programme that the man was arrested on suspicion of having committed
an offence under Section 12 of the Immigration Act, something it is
impossible for an Irish citizen to do.

While elsewhere, in the US, if you tell a police officer you are an American
Citizen, that is the end of it, the police could not demand anything else.
like a passport. The Idea is to protect US Citizens inside the US from the
police. You can only demand Passports at the port of entry.

I hope the gardai involved get a bollocking and the man gets a reward.
Interestingly enough, I would question the grounds for relying on Section 12, why was he stopped in the first place? Normal routine Road Traffic matter?

While some may say this is a loophole, its the only way to protect citizens
in their own country if they have a different colour or accent from what
police consider their white American norm.

To be fair, and I am not trying to excuse the cops, America has more experience in this than the Irish. Begrudgingly, I would say, the Gardaí made a honest mistake. After all many are thick gobshites.

A simple call to the Irish INIS would have sorted that problem out, i would imagine.

I wonder did the American police have cool computers in their car to check.

But in March 2011 After 7 years, the clearly bad Irish ID law is declared unconstitutional
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 37954.html

The decision by Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns to rule section 12 of the 2004
Act unconstitutional means the Garda can no longer rely on this
mechanism to demand presentation of ID on threat of conviction. The
Department of Justice said last night it was studying the implications, and
whether it should appeal.

It is understood justice officials believe other legal instruments may be
used as a basis to demand presentation of ID

[/QUOTE]

That is the one I was referring too. So it was Section 12

To me, the example you gave is highly suspicious work of the Gardaí. I understand that it was a simple road traffic stop. You can't go off fishing then.

I know I said honest mistake as to the fact he was or was not irish, but it could easily have been a case of trying to keep their superintendents happy and raking up arrests and convictions (this actually happens!) If the gardai used their heads more often, this shite would not happen.

Time for tea

[ca.funke]

Daer walrusgumble,

I really don´t want to get into the topic again, so I´ll bite my tongue...

...however, in your last post there are numerous quotes which aren´t actually from me.

Would be nice if that could be corrected?

Thanks and rgds, Christian