Pregnant by non-EU partner- best route to family life in UK?

[Verdandi]

Hello all,

I'm in a relationship with a Moroccan man - we've been together since March 2011 (have spent a total of 10 weeks with him and his family in Morocco over 2011 and am going back out to see him for a week during January) and after my last visit I found out I was pregnant. I've already got a young child from a previous relationship and am currently a stay-at-home mother, student and voluntary worker (i.e. no income from employment). He just works casually in his village, usually for less than £5 per day. We are committed to sharing family life together but I want this to be in the UK. Before I discovered I was pregnant I was already hoping to have him visit me here on a General Visitor visa, but now our priority is to get him here to be with me for the birth of our child in May 2012.

I've read and re-read the UK Border Agency website and am still not sure what the best way to proceed is. I guess my main questions are:

1) Is he eligible to apply for a 'general visitor' visa given our cicumstances? I know we're ineligible to apply as unmarried partners but if we state my pregnancy and desire to have him here for the birth of his child on a 'general' application, would this work against us?

2) If we were to apply for a Marriage Visa and get married then it seems, from my study of previous posts on here, that our current financial circumstances would make it nigh on impossible to pursue life together beyond that. It seems ridiculous - if I'm living here alone as a single mother, I'm entitled to full benefits anyway, yet if we desire to pursue a 'traditional' family life together we have to prove we have 'no recourse to public funds' (yet his background and my personal beliefs mean that we share an ideal of him being a 'breadwinner' whilst I concentrate on home and family). From my perspective, my family has more chance of coming off public funds if he can be with us rather than not :-/

Other points I can think of . . . I have access to £2000 to sponsor his application and his family are hoping to sell some land to provide him with a further £1000+, so I'm hoping that we're covered for at least an initial stay of 6 months. The English test is another issue for the Marriage Visa, but I personally believe he'd do fine based on what I know he can say and understand (but he doesn't yet feel confident in his English).

Any opinions or advice gratefully received!

Thanks,
Vicky

[MPH80]

Using your numbering ...

1) Yes - it would affect it - and lying about it (e.g. not mentioning it) would potentially compromise further applications. The reason it'd have an effect is that they look for strong ties to the home country for the person to return. Having a new child in the UK would be very difficult to leave.

The answer to this - if you want to go down this road - is to prove strong ties. That's going to be very tough given he works casually. I would go so far as to suggest impossible.

2) Fiancee does seem more appropriate. The key is that you require no additional benefits to support him - not that you require none. Does that make sense?

To be honest - £3k, with the fact that you're going to have to spend £800-odd on the initial visa, then a further £550 for the FLR(M), you're going to have just £1.5k to support him for 6 months - that's only £250 a month for him to live on - that's VERY tough. You have to allow for food, travel etc.

I appreciate this isn't a good situation. What about the possibility of moving to Morocco?

M.

[Verdandi]

Thank you for your response, that makes things somewhat clearer. However, I'm in some ways more confused and feeling very naive - the Border Agency and UK in Morocco websites state that a visa application costs £76. What do the £800 and £550 FLR cover?? I haven't seen reference to this anywhere else, just information about the fee and necessary funds to support a stay :-/

Living in Morocco is obviously an option in the future but would be far from ideal - I'm committed to three years' work for a charity in the UK as of this year (mainly unpaid but contracted to it as they've paid for my university studies to take on a particular role) and, despite having some traditional values that fit in with a Muslim society, I believe opportunities for myself and my children would be very limited over there. My partner doesn't really understand this but that's because he's never experienced my life in the UK, and it feels like a priority to me for him to see what my life is like here - or maybe that's the thing for the future?! I'm open-minded about the future, but my initial aim is to at least have him with us here for the birth and first few months of our child's life. Ultimately, if he's got a limit of 6 months on his visa and no right to remain, then the powers lie with the UK authorities to make sure he respects that, which I have no doubt that he will, but how do you prove good intention? Like you say, I think it would be hard for him to prove strong ties to Morocco, for despite the closeness and loyalty he feels for his family and Berber heritage, it means little to the authorities on paper.

[Lucapooka]

Thank you for your response, that makes things somewhat clearer. However, I'm in some ways more confused and feeling very naive - the Border Agency and UK in Morocco websites state that a visa application costs £76. What do the £800 and £550 FLR cover??

Very simply and without going into specifics, the 76 is for a visit visa (can be general or for marriage). This will not allow you to settle in the UK and you must leave the UK within six months. The 800 is for a fiancee visa that will allow you to marry and settle. After the marriage you then pay 550 to convert your leave to settlement; there is no need to leave the UK.

[MPH80]

A visitor visa costs £76.

A settlement visa - which is what a fiancee visa is - costs £810

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas ... e-cp/fees/#

This gives you an initial 6 month period to marry, then you extend the visa (one married) using the form FLR(M) - which costs £550 (for a postal application - more for in person/same day). After two years of FLR(M) if you're still together - he can then apply for Indefinite Leave (ILR) - which costs a further £972 (currently). Finally - after 3 years of originally arriving in the country - he can apply for british citizenship - that costs £836.

Note this is all based on the current rules and there is a consultation and plans to change them.

Now - there is the concept of a marriage visitor visa which costs the same as a standard visitor visa - but you'll face the same problem as a standard visitor visa - he's got to prove that he's going to leave at the end of his stay - and having a british partner in the country, with a child, and no permanent job in his home country will make it very hard to prove.

You're stuck between a rock and a hard place really. No funds to prove a fiancee visa, no reason for him to return on a visitor visa.

There's another option which is to bypass the fiancee bit of the visa (I'm going to assume the important bit is the birth of the child). You travel to Morocco, marry immediately (if possible under the law there - no idea!), then apply for a spouse visa for him. You save the additional £550 of FLR(M) by doing this and he can work immediately on arrival.

This can help with the funds because you can organise someone to offer him a job from here and thus have a job (and therefore income) waiting for him here. Evidence of this will then help sway the decision.

It might not be the ideal marriage, but then it doesn't have to be the only ceremony you do - you could do a simple "just the two of you" type ceremony, then top it up with a full wedding in the UK or Morocco after.

There is also an option around a court ruling called 'Zambrano' - the ruling says that if there is a dependant person in the UK (who is a british citizen - which your child would be) who is dependant on someone outside the UK - that person they are dependant on has a right of abode in the UK. However, you have to show that the child IS dependant on the father. This also doesn't grant him entry until after the birth and if you're going down that route there are visas specifically for access to a child.

I'm also going to suggest something I wouldn't normally. You have the voluntary group who have funded the university education - well - yes you have a contract with them, but the worst they can do is sue you in the UK. IF you chose to move to Morocco permanently there wouldn't be much they could do from the UK to recover the money from the breach of contract. It's not ethical, but it is practical in this case.

I think what you need to do is make a list of what your top priorities are over the next few months/years. THis will then help inform your decision as to where you go from here.

M.

[Casa]

Picking up on the suggestion of moving to Morocco, it may well be difficult for your husband to support both you, the baby and his step-child on a casual wage of around £5 a day.
Do you have any family member in the UK who would be willing and able to provide 3rd party financial support if your husband applies for a fiance or spouse visa?

[MPH80]

Duplicate post - ignore

[Verdandi]

Thank you all, it all seems to make sense now.

I'm going to be in Morocco in 3 weeks' time and have toyed with the idea of getting married over there, but I don't know if I'll be able to acquire the appropriate paperwork in time. One of the conditions under Moroccan Islamic marriage law seems to be to prove I'm a 'believer' by paperwork from clergy to say that I'm Muslim, Christian or Jewish (I have a strong spiritual faith but I'm of none of these religions), but my boyfriend seems to think it's enough for me to just say I'm Muslim without having to officially convert in a mosque. But, if I get the paperwork in time and am happy to travel around Morocco sorting out paperwork and translations there, we could well get married within a fortnight of me going over there without me needing any special visa to do so. It's certainly not how I envisioned getting married as it just feels like a means to an end given the circumstances, but there also seems to be little against doing it if we're both committed to each other and if it cuts out some of the hassle of doing things on a UK visa.

Writing up pros/cons and priorities does seem to be the next sensible step now I'm clearer about what may or may not work for us. Thank you for the insight, I've been struggling to research visas online for weeks without getting anywhere and thanks to this forum now feel like I am

[Casa]

I believe you'll need evidence of your Shadahah...the confirmation as muslim...or as an alternative, your christening certificate as a Christian..assuming you're not Jewish.

[STLewis]

hi,
I agree with Casa - I was christian but converted to islam in egypt a few days before our wedding took place. This was done at the main mosque in cairo and I was given a Certificate confirming my conversion.

When I married a few days later, you are asked your religion, and I had evidence of this - i was able to submit this, all went ok.

however, the day we married another couple were before us (russian or ukraine lady with egyptian), and they were in and out of the office, arguing, having problems...my husband told me it was because when she was asked what religion she was, she advised she didn't have one. They refused to marry them.

Im unsure whether this will be similar in Morrocco, but just be aware, that you will most likely require evidence of some sort of religion. Maybe just stating christian is enough, presumably i needed to provide my certificate to prove conversion to islam. Both religions are placed on the marriage certificate in egypt.

If you do decide to get married in morocco, check out the embassy website as this will explain everything, where you need to go and what is required. You may need to make a stat dec before marriage a few days before etc.

[milos85]

There is also an option around a court ruling called 'Zambrano' - the ruling says that if there is a dependant person in the UK (who is a british citizen - which your child would be) who is dependant on someone outside the UK - that person they are dependant on has a right of abode in the UK. However, you have to show that the child IS dependant on the father. This also doesn't grant him entry until after the birth and if you're going down that route there are visas specifically for access to a child.

Hi, our situation is pretty much same as op and this Zambrano ruling caught my eye.
My wife is British citizen and she's going to give birth to our baby girl in a month. I am Serbian citizen currently in Serbia waiting on decision for spouse visa while my wife is in the UK, but i am afraid that i will be refused based on insufficient funds.

So if i do get refused would this Zambrano ruling be a good option, or do we go for appeal(which can take long time)?

What evidence would i need to provide to prove that child is dependant on me? Does that mean financial or?

How much does this type of application cost and what are waiting times?

[milos85]

Anyone got any info about this? I think it would be useful to a lot of members here.

[Casa]

Milos85, you need to continue in your own thread. You're confusing this one as your situation is different....you're not considering marrying in a Muslim country.

[Casa]

Verdandi, STLewis is right. You can't marry in Morocco without proof of your religion...whichever religion that is. Neither can you marry giving 'no religion'.

[Verdandi]

To be honest, I'm not even sure where we stand in Morocco with me being pregnant - they usually check to ensure the woman isn't pregnant before giving permission for marriage and want to know that you haven't had premarital 'relations' with your partner. However, I also know that when women do become pregnant outside of wedlock in Morocco and the men decide to stand by them, marriage is preferable to single motherhood, so there must be a loophole somewhere.

Thanks for the information about the religion issue - my partner said it was fine just to 'say' I'm Muslim because that's what people there do, but that's presumably because they've been born into it and it's the cultural norm to be Muslim. However, they know it's not the norm for a British woman . . .

Finding it quite upsetting, I'm deeply spiritual, god-loving and pray regularly, and it doesn't feel morally right to lie about my faith by calling myself Muslim or Christian when I'm not. However, I have been to church before and, perhaps because of my own cultural influences, feel more comfortable with the idea of 'converting' to Christianity in order to make this marriage happen. But it feels false and is leading me to think that applying for a fiance visa for the UK might be the best option after all? That would, in theory, give us 6 months together as well (rather than the flying visits I can now do to Morocco) before pursuing the leave to remain as a spouse - I'm finding it hard to figure out from the Border Agency site whether you have to show evidence for financial ability to remain in the UK after marriage before even the 6 month marriage part of the fiance visa application is accepted (if that makes sense?), or whether I initially just have to show I can sponsor my partner for the initial period to sort the wedding, etc, and worry about the FLRM requirements later?