Dutch PhD student at end of study

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:49 pm

Dear all,

I am a Dutch PhD student who has been studying and living in the UK for the last three years with my Pakistani husband. He came here on a family permit and is now holding a 5 year Residence Card which is valid for a another 2-3 years. I have been getting a student stipend for the last three years, but it has stopped now as I am approaching the end of my studies. My husband has found a nice job in the meantime with a fixed contract. We were planning to start a family now as we thought we were safe with his job/salary but now I started doubting whether I should not try to look for work after completing my PhD?

My worries are whether we are still allowed to stay here even though I am not technically excersising treaty rights? What should we do when my husbands 5 year residence card expires, will he be able to get a permanent residence card or will his residence permit be extended? He does need to travel to Pakistan sometimes to visit his family. Can they still make him to leave the country?

Hope someone can help me!

Best wishes, Anne-Marie

Post by **Greenie** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:58 pm

if you are going to cease study and not find work, you will need to rely on being self-sufficient (which can include relying on your husband's income) however you will both need to have CSI (Comprehensive Sickness Insurance) in order to prove you are self-sufficient.

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:01 pm

Thanks Greeny,

My husband is covered by Bupa via his work. We have the option to include me in the policy as well, but so far haven't. Do you think he can get his perminent residence if we do?

Thansk, Anne-Marie

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:50 pm

May I just clarify that I have also been covered by Bupa (does Bupa qualify as comprehensive sickness insurance?) since August last year (I had forgotten that). So does this mean I am now a self sufficient person and still excersising treaty rights?

Thanks

nonspecifics · Post by **nonspecifics** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:16 pm

CSI has to cover all existing medical conditions and you will be required to send the document specifying what that the BUPA policy covers.

You will have to read the policy details to know if it is comprehensive or not.

zheni · Post by **zheni** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:00 pm

Were you issued a student certificate by UKBA when you commenced your studies?

Did you have CSI for that period?

Were you exercising treaty rights in the UK, in another capacity, before starting your course?

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:06 pm

When my husband applied for his Residence card, I applied and got a residence document without having any CSI. I also applied for and received a NI card though as far as I know no tax has been payed over my stipend. I believed being registered with the NHS was enought so up till now I was unaware of the need of having CSI. I started my PhD the day I arrived in the UK so did not excersise any other treaty rights.

nonspecifics · Post by **nonspecifics** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:33 pm

If you received a residence certificate on the basis of being a student, and it was before June 2011, then you are exempt from the requirement for CSI.

It doesn't say so explicitly, but I am presuming the exemption for CSI only lasts for as long as you are a student. Perhaps, someone can clear that up?

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:40 pm

I received my residence certificate in 2009, so if you are right I don't need to worry about that period, that is one worry less.

I will check with Bupa whether we are on comprehensive insurance with them, if not I will change the policy.

Thanks very much for all your help everyone!

zheni · Post by **zheni** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:50 pm

nonspecifics, my interpretation of the transitional arrangements is the same, that the exemption from CSI covers the period of study, only.

Anne-Marie, there should not be a problem with the CSI for the study period, the issued student certificate is a proof that at the time of issue you satisfied the conditions of exercising treaty rights as a student. If you ever become self-sufficient you must have CSI as this category is not covered by the transitional arrangements.

Best of luck!

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:17 am

Thanks a lot everyone. I am still a bit worried though as I read so many stories of people being self sufficient and still being refused the permanent residence. Is it a safe option or is it better if I try to find work once I have handed over my thesis?

And what happens in the case we are refused permanent residence? Would we be kicked out? What do people do in such case?

Thanks

fysicus · Post by **fysicus** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:50 am

Anne-Marie wrote:And what happens in the case we are refused permanent residence? Would we be kicked out? What do people do in such case?

Nothing serious is likely to happen.

Worst case scenario: if PR is refused because for some reason it is argued that you did not exercise treaty rights properly at some time during the five year qualifying period, you can always apply for a new Residence Card for your husband (EEA2). Such applications are decided on your circumstances at the time of application, independent of what may have happened in the past.

I see no reason to worry about deportation or things like that.

zheni · Post by **zheni** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:40 pm

You should not be worried about deportation.
If you are refused PR, they would not deport you. Even if you are refused for not exercising treaty rights, you still have free movement and no one will deport you.
I might be wrong but I think that an EU citizen and their family members can only be deported or denied entry to the country if they are a treat to national health or security.

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:46 pm

Thanks for the confirmation, that is a real relief. The only worry in that case would then be my husbands job as I think his employer won't be happy to keep him there if his residence card has expired and he doesn't get a replacement.

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:22 am

Dear all,

Thanks a lot for all your replies. I just checked with Home office and they said that as long as I can show a valid certificate with ANY private insurance that should be sufficient. They said as Bupa is a well known company that it should be fine.

Also checked with their website to double check if I can count my husbands salary for my self suffiency it says this:

"If you are economically self-sufficient, you need to supply evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance for yourself and any family members included in your application. You also need to supply evidence of funds sufficient to maintain yourself and any family members included in your application during the time you intend to reside on this basis. These funds can come from the employment or self-employment of any of your family members legally working and residing in the UK with you. Documentary evidence of their employment or funds should be supplied." (From: GUIDANCE NOTES FOR APPLYING AS A EUROPEAN NATIONAL OR AS THE FAMILY MEMBER OF A EUROPEAN NATIONAL, May 2011)

To my best knowledge I shall conclude that I am therefore legally self sufficient and don't need to worry about my treaty rights.

Post by **Greenie** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:42 pm

Anne-Marie wrote:Dear all,

Thanks a lot for all your replies. I just checked with Home office and they said that as long as I can show a valid certificate with ANY private insurance that should be sufficient. They said as Bupa is a well known company that it should be fine.

Also checked with their website to double check if I can count my husbands salary for my self suffiency it says this:

"If you are economically self-sufficient, you need to supply evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance for yourself and any family members included in your application. You also need to supply evidence of funds sufficient to maintain yourself and any family members included in your application during the time you intend to reside on this basis. These funds can come from the employment or self-employment of any of your family members legally working and residing in the UK with you. Documentary evidence of their employment or funds should be supplied." (From: GUIDANCE NOTES FOR APPLYING AS A EUROPEAN NATIONAL OR AS THE FAMILY MEMBER OF A EUROPEAN NATIONAL, May 2011)

To my best knowledge I shall conclude that I am therefore legally self sufficient and don't need to worry about my treaty rights.

Don't trust what the UKBA say on the phone, they are known to give out incorrect information. It is simply not true that they will accept any private insurance. It needs to be comphrensive. The European Casework instructions set out further what they require.

nonspecifics · Post by **nonspecifics** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:06 pm

As the old saying goes: "A verbal agreement is not worth the paper it is written on."

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:16 am

Dear All,

After another frustrating call with the Home Office I am none the wiser and would like to ask you one more question regarding my situation.

I know I have been exempt from the SCI rule as a student, as I applied and got my residence card before June 2011. Now my question is whether I am still exempt during the time I am writing up my PhD thesis? My scholarship has ended at the end of 2011, but I will be registered as a student at my university untill the end of this year to allow me to write up and graduate etc.

All the HO could reply was you need CSI, you need CSI, without even really listening to my particular situation which is very frustrating and not helpfull.

Another question I have is this: From a completely different angle: My husband has the right to apply for the Dutch nationality now as he has been here with me for 3 years. We are currently in the process and hope to finalise it at the end of this year. This would be well within the expiry date of his 5 year residence card. Do you think we should still worry about all the previous stuff (treaty rights, permament residence cards) after he has become a Dutch national? Or are we just being over cautious?

Thanks, Anne-Marie

Post by **Jambo** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:50 am

Anne-Marie wrote:Now my question is whether I am still exempt during the time I am writing up my PhD thesis? My scholarship has ended at the end of 2011, but I will be registered as a student at my university untill the end of this year to allow me to write up and graduate etc.

As long as the university sees you as a student and will confirm it in writing, you are a student. The scholarship has no affect on it.

Another question I have is this: From a completely different angle: My husband has the right to apply for the Dutch nationality now as he has been here with me for 3 years. We are currently in the process and hope to finalise it at the end of this year. This would be well within the expiry date of his 5 year residence card. Do you think we should still worry about all the previous stuff (treaty rights, permament residence cards) after he has become a Dutch national? Or are we just being over cautious?

If both of you are not planning to apply for British citizenship as well, then I would not worry at all. Having or not having PR has no affect on EEA national daily life.

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:11 am

Thanks Jambo,

So in that case it does not matter if we have PR or not? We would have the same rights as British Nationals? I am thinking of the future if we ever get children and they need to go to school etc?

Thanks

Post by **Jambo** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:17 pm

The only main differences from British nationals are not able to vote in the general elections and some restriction working in sensitive posts (working for MI6 etc although they might pose restriction on "new" Britons anyway).

There are no restrictions what so ever on education, NHS regardless of your PR status.

The only other issue worth knowing about kids is that they will be British from birth if one of the parents holds PR status before their birth. If you would like them to get a British passport, you will need to prove that you had PR before their birth (but the application for PR doesn't need to be before they are born, just the evidence to prove it needs to cover the years before they are born).

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:47 am

Dear all,

Yesterday we have had some great news, my husband's application for Dutch citizenship has been accepted. I was wondering what this means for our life here in the UK. He works full time, I am pregnant and planning to be a stay at home mum. We are not planning on getting PR here in Britain, but I was wondering whether we still need to worry about exersising treaty rights (as I am unemployed)? Would we be allowed to claim child benefits for instance?

So far we have been paying for comprehensive sicknes insurance, because my husbands' residence permit was going to expire next year and I needed to proof self sufficiency. Ofcourse now he has got the Dutch nationality we don't need to worry about residence permits anymore, which is great, but can we stop the CSI that now as well?

Best wishes, Anne-Marie

Post by **sheraz7** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:58 pm

If your goal is not to upgrade to British nationality then if you wish you can cancel CSI but as you planning to apply benefits then certainly the benefits authorities will be eager to see whether you are a qualified person. And if are a self sufficient then most likely they will ask CSI too.

fysicus · Post by **fysicus** » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:21 pm

Anne-Marie's husband is now an EU citizen, exercising treaty rights as a worker. I see no compelling reason to have (or maintain) CSI, nor any problem in claiming child benefits.

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