Refused for my in-laws, right to appeal, depend. proof uk?

[the_pit]

Dear All, I really need your help this time, I was trying to search for an answer but I couldn't find something that specifically applies to my case.

We have applied for Residence Card (EEA2) for my Wife, Daughter and Brothers in Law (twins, 18 years old).
After one month we received the COA saying that my wife can work, but not my brothers in law until there is a decision.
Now a couple of weeks later I received my Italian Passport, and a decision for my brothers in law which is to REFUSE the residence for them.

The reason is I haven't provide them with enough evidence that show that they are dependant on me here in the UK, since their arrival. (They are happy with evidence of them depending on me prior to the arrival, and also with the relationship evidence). The only thing it seems to be missing is to prove they depend on me here.

(We have the right to appeal)

This is a bit funny for me, because if they are only 18 years old, they were depending on me for the last years, I invited them to UK, of course they still depend on me if they cannot start working here. what other option they consider (HO)?

The problem is, how to prove it, they live with me, there are witnesses, and the Gym membership is charged to my debit card (all 3, me and them) and I don't know. They are with me, of course they are not in the rental agreement (neither my wife is), If they were under 18 just a couple of month ago, how can they don't depend on me.

I think Home Office should prove that they don't live with me, because I can't prove other thing, unless somebody from HO comes to my home and at that point they will realise they are living with us.

Please any idea? we need to appeal as soon as possible.

PS: My EU Passport was returned, don't know why because my wifes and daughters app is still in progress.

HELP!!! please!

[the_pit]

I was thinking, maybe the NHS card will work?

[Azhaar]

bank statements showing gym membership for them could help, NHS Cards can help as well..

photographs may help, you have to get a letter from ur landlord to say at least that they are living with as part of your family..

this could help

[Punjab]

I was thinking if you have any proof that you are spending your money on them like their tution fee or sponsoring them for anything it will help.

[the_pit]

bank statements showing gym membership for them could help, NHS Cards can help as well..

photographs may help, you have to get a letter from ur landlord to say at least that they are living with as part of your family..

this could help

My Landlord doesn't know, and I don't think he will be happy to know there are 2 more people living in my 2 bedroom flat.

Thanks a lot

[the_pit]

I was thinking if you have any proof that you are spending your money on them like their tution fee or sponsoring them for anything it will help.

The problem is the only thing I pay for them that is not in cash is the gym membership.

Apart from that, I pay for their cigarettes, I give them money to go out on the weekends, I buy clothing when necessary, and of course I buy groceries for the whole family. But all this is hard to prove.

Thanks for your input, still not feeling confident about this issue

[Obie]

The law provide that they are supposed to be dependant or member of your household in the country they are coming from, and when they enter the UK, they can either be dependent on you or a member of your Household.

Provided you can show evidence they live in a home for which you have primary responsibility, they are supposed to be recognised as Extended family members.

As stated earlier, having established that one is an extended family member is not the end of the matter. There is a discretion as to whether or not residence card can be issued in accordance with regulation 17(4) (5).

In your case, it appears this discretion has not been exercised, as the HO wrongly concluded that your in-laws, are not dependent on you in the UK, without given any consideration as to whether or not they are part of your household.

[the_pit]

The law provide that they are supposed to be dependant or member of your household in the country they are coming from, and when they enter the UK, they can either be dependent on you or a member of your Household.

Provided you can show evidence they live in a home for which you have primary responsibility, they are supposed to be recognised as Extended family members.

As stated earlier, having established that one is an extended family member is not the end of the matter. There is a discretion as to whether or not residence card can be issued in accordance with regulation 17(4) (5).

In your case, it appears this discretion has not been exercised, as the HO wrongly concluded that your in-laws, are not dependent on you in the UK, without given any consideration as to whether or not they are part of your household.

Actually the answer mention that they cannot probe they live with me checking my rental agreement. So if they were on the agreement the outcome would have been different, maybe. But that is impossible.

One question, because they are 18, and of course as soon as they have permission, they will try to get a job and continue with their lives without depending on me. Is this something I can tell or I shouldn't. It is pretty obvious, if they are adults, healthy, etc.. If they have the residence, they will look for work.

Do it need to avoid talking about that?

I still don't know how can I prove they live with me.

Anyway, many many thanks for your help.

[the_pit]

Another question is why they returned my EU passport if my wife and daughter application is still in progress, I assume they dont need it anymore....

[keffers]

On what basis did your brothers-in-law enter the country?

Was it on a family permit or a tourist visa in which case they would have had to have shown or be expected to be able to fund their stay?

[the_pit]

On what basis did your brothers-in-law enter the country?

Was it on a family permit or a tourist visa in which case they would have had to have shown or be expected to be able to fund their stay?

Thanks for asking keffers, they entered in a tourist visa with an invitation letter from me, saying I will take care of them economically and they will live in my house for 6 months.

So yours is a good point, because it is clear that they depended on me, because they entered with that letter, and the immigration officer when they were at the airport even called me to check some things before allowing them to come in.

The problem is they overstayed because they have applied for the EEA2 (before their tourist visa expired, but now it is expired).

But it was a very good question, maybe I can use that thing of the invitation letter in my favour.

Thanks and I listen to your thoughts please.

[Obie]

Documents indicating proof of address such as NHS card if they have one and bank statements. Any correspondents they received at your address will be helpful.

You can also state this fact in your evidence in chief (witness Statement).

You really dont want to say much about the visa application, as this might undermine yours and their credibility.

The HO has a habit of using this in court, saying people lied their intention on visitors visa application, therefore any statement they make cannot be trusted.

[the_pit]

Documents indicating proof of address such as NHS card if they have one and bank statements. Any correspondents they received at your address will be helpful.

You can also state this fact in your evidence in chief (witness Statement).

You really dont want to say much about the visa application, as this might undermine yours and their credibility.

The HO has a habit of using this in court, saying people lied their intention on visitors visa application, therefore any statement they make cannot be trusted.

Thanks Obie, you always helping on every thread, do you know if I need to mandatory have legal representation? Because I was thinking to go ahead by myself.

What is Evidence in Chief?, the only reference to witnesses in the form I need to fill and send (IAFT-1) is one part where it says "who will be attending the oral hearing" and I can mark "Witnesses" , but nothing else...

How the witnesses thing work please.
Can they only "talk" or they MUST provide evidence.

Thanks a lot.

[Obie]

It is not mandatory to have a legal representive, but it may help if you are not too conversant with the rule.

Your evidence in chief is the witness statement you submit, which you will state in the end is your evidence in Chief.

Full consideration will be given to it.

If you feel confident you may proceed unrepresented.

[the_pit]

It is not mandatory to have a legal representive, but it may help if you are not too conversant with the rule.

Your evidence in chief is the witness statement you submit, which you will state in the end is your evidence in Chief.

Full consideration will be given to it.

If you feel confident you may proceed unrepresented.

Obie, thanks again, I don't feel confident to be honest, but I don't want to spend more money on this and I heard solicitors charge a lot for appeals, if we were talking about 100-200 pounds, I will go for it.

BTW, do you know anyone who can help me for that sum of money and knows what he is talking about?

For now, what I am planning to do is to send NHS cards (copy), copy of bank statement where it is showed I am paying for all the gym memberships, and.... that's it. I have no more.

My brothers in law have girlfriends who came here some time, they know their situation, can we use them as witnesses in the oral hearing?

I am quite lost to be honest, and I have no much time left..

Million of Thanks

[Obie]

Unfortunately i am unaware of any firms that charge 100-200 pounds to represent.

You may be able to get legal aid from some firms in certain circumstances.

I am really not sure how the girlfried can help. Are they settled in the UK and have leave to remain?

I believe the issue is centered on whether or not they are part of your household and i think you may be able to prove that. Dependancy may easily be proven as you sponsored their visit and providing for them.

You may be asked to explain why EEA family permit was not applied for

[the_pit]

Unfortunately i am unaware of any firms that charge 100-200 pounds to represent.

You may be able to get legal aid from some firms in certain circumstances.

I am really not sure how the girlfried can help. Are they settled in the UK and have leave to remain?

I believe the issue is centered on whether or not they are part of your household and i think you may be able to prove that. Dependancy may easily be proven as you sponsored their visit and providing for them.

You may be asked to explain why EEA family permit was not applied for

One of the girlfriend is from Peru but she is settle, she works for Pret so I assume she is all legal as Pret would not hire an illegal worker. (she is a general manager there).

The only way to show I sponsored their visit is by showing the invitation letter, but again, in the letter it says they will leave after 6 months.

Regarding the Family Permit, one reason it was because at first we didn't thought on them staying, but then the idea was growing and now we think is the best.

Other reason could be that in Paraguay (the country where they are from) there is no UK consulate/embassy, so in order to do the FP they should have been moved to Buenos Aires and that was a bit complicated.

Can I say they want to start working as soon as they have the residency?

Because they say in the refusal letter "We think you can continue sending money to him if they are in Paraguay".... (something like that).

But the truth is I don't want to keep sending money and they don't want to be dependant on me their whole life. In Paraguay the economic situation is horrible, they would not get a decent job easily, they will struggle a lot over there.. However here, they can do anything and have a decent life even with the most basic job, so it is also for their future, and they will be independent in a short time, while if they return I will need to still send money for a long time.

In one part they say "we don't see how the fact they return to their country can affect negatively to the EU family member, or how can put in danger the continuty of excercise of the threaty rights" (or something like that, I am trying to remember now).

So considering the above, if they return, they WILL cause problems to me, because they will require more money for longer time, and I if they stay it will be easier for everyone..

Don't know.. just guessing...

Thanks a lot man.

[the_pit]

Well, finally I sent the appelation. Let's see what happens, I will keep you informed. Thanks for all your help