Directive/2004/38/EC - Ireland - Directions from arrival

sierra · Post by **sierra** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:20 pm

hi will you please let us know what documents you submitted to accompany spouse visit visa for your spouse i mean did you submitted bank statement and job documents and hotel reservation etc.
or just your passport your wife passport and marriage certificate thanks .
we are going to apply in january i am british as well and need to apply for my non eu spouse from pakistan to accompany eu spouse from pakistan thanks again

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:09 am

Submitted Covering letter, English marriage cert and both our passports. Got visit visa in 5 working days.

Moving on. I did not register for job seekers.

I have obtained work and started today. I have a 1 year contract job working for a blue chip company in Dublin city centre.

Now is the time for the Residence Permit application.

I have my signed contract of employment, proof of address (PPS number confirmation from Irish revenue which I used as proof of address to open the bank account, same as NI number in UK) and should have a letter from the bank soon as I have opened an account. No utility bills in our names as we are currently living with friends and I have used their address for the bank/pps number. However, we have nothing in my wifes name for this address.

Will her application be ok with the following documents:
Signed contract, 1 year of employment;
My proof of address from the bank/Irish Revenue;
Original English marriage certificate;
Non-EU Spouse's passport;
My UK passport

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:56 am

andyjohnst wrote: Will her application be ok with the following documents:
Signed contract, 1 year of employment;
My proof of address from the bank/Irish Revenue;
Original English marriage certificate;
Non-EU Spouse's passport;
My UK passport

Should be fine with these.

As you can see from http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/ecj-c-15703/ there are only a few things they are allowed to ask for.

30 Those conditions [for a Residence Card] are exhaustive in nature (see, to that effect, Case 48/75 Royer [1976] ECR 497, paragraph 37; Case C-363/89 Roux [1991] ECR I-273, paragraphs 14 and 15; and Case C-376/89 Giagounidis [1991] ECR I-1069, paragraph 21).

The Irish tend to ask for more, but I think you can gently push back.

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:50 am

Quick question Directive/2004/38/EC, I don't know if you would be able to help. My Mother-in-law who is a non-eu national would I be able to use this directive for her to visit me and my wife once my non-eu wife get's her residence permit?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:54 am

andyjohnst wrote:Quick question Directive/2004/38/EC, I don't know if you would be able to help. My Mother-in-law who is a non-eu national would I be able to use this directive for her to visit me and my wife once my non-eu wife get's her residence permit?

It depends on the relationship.

Does she fit in: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ly-member/ ?

Or does she fit in: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ficiaries/ ?

Note that your wife will apply for a Residence Card. No "permission" is involved.

But the RC does not change her status. So if your mother in law qualifies, then she qualifies now (even without your wife having a RC).

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:57 pm

Hi - Is there a need for a covering letter or anything stating the directive or should I just send the documents with the EU 1 form?

Looks like the Irish do ask for additional items. This is with regards to:

(c) Evidence of current activities of the EU Citizen in the state.

Need to show signed contract - I have this
Two recent payslips - I don't have this. Only just started the job and paid monthly, first payment is end of Jan.
Most recent P60 or Tax Credit Certificate - Again, I don't have this.

(d) Evidence of residence of applicant and EU citizen in the state

If renting
Letter from landlord/agency, rental contract or rent book - Don't have this as we are just living with friends until the end of Jan. Will then rent somewhere.
Letter of Registration of Tenancy from the Private Residential Tenancies Board - Again, do not have this as we are living with friends
Utility bills for applicant and EU Citizen - I have my letter from bank confirming my opening of a bank account and also have my PPS number from the Revenue in Ireland. No Utility bills as we do not pay them. My wife has not any bills in her name or any letters from anything.

It does say at the bottom of the Explanatory leaflet that : If for any reason you cannot supply some or all of the required documentation above, you must provide a written statement
explaining why. Provision of some or all of the above documentation is not a guarantee of a successful application

Any help or guidance would be great.

agniukas · Post by **agniukas** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:52 am

You can submit the required documents when you receive them. The decision will be made closer to the six months line. Until then you can submit all the required documents.
As soon as you move in to the rented accomodation, send them tenancy agreement, a letter from the landlord and the bills as soon as you get them. ask the landlord to register you with PRTB and get the PRTB letters. same applies to your payslips, when you get them, send them in.
If you are working, you have to reister with Revenue. Once you do that you wil receive a Tax credits cert, which you should forward to INIS.

agniukas · Post by **agniukas** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:54 am

Send in the EU1 form. if you feel like explaining your situation, add a cover note letter. The more documents you submit in the first intance, the better. Also get a letter from the company where you work.

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:38 pm

This is a copy of the letter I sent to INIS with my wife application for a Residence Card

This is the letter I have wrote to the INIS.

This letter is to be taken into consideration with my wife’s application for a Residence Card.

I, ****, a UK citizen (passport number ****) arrived in Ireland on 2 December 2011, with my wife **** (passport number ****) a Azerbaijani citizen. Since then, I have gained employment in state, working for ***** in Dublin 4. I commenced my contract on 20 December 2011. Therefore, I am currently exercising my EU Treaty Rights, under EU Directive 2004/38/EC.

We have enclosed my UK passport, my wife’s Azerbaijani passport, our UK marriage certificate, 2 x passport photo’s for both myself and my wife, my offer of employment, along with signed employment contract, proof of address from the Permanent TSB bank and the Department of Social Protection Client Identity Services.

With regards to the documents provided, ECJ Case C-157/03, Commission v Spain [2005] states that the documents we have provided fall in line with the documents required as laid down in Article 4(3)(c), (d) and (e) of Directive 68/360, Article 6 of Directive 73/148 and Article 2 of Directive 90/365. Those conditions [for a Residence Card] are exhaustive in nature (see, to that effect, Case 48/75 Royer [1976] ECR 497, paragraph 37; Case C-363/89 Roux [1991] ECR I-273, paragraphs 14 and 15; and Case C-376/89 Giagounidis [1991] ECR I-1069, paragraph 21).

At this moment in time, we are unable to provide certain documents which you have asked for in the application for the following reasons:

Evidence of residence in the state
As we have only just moved to the state, we are currently residing with friends, at the address above (****). Once I have received my first wage, on 27 January 2012, we will then be in a position to obtain rental accommodation. At this point, we will then forward on the required documents (i.e. letter from landlord/agency, rent contract or rent book) Included now are a letter from the revenue confirming my PPS number and also a letter from Permanent TSB bank confirming the opening of my bank account.

Evidence of current activity of the EU citizen in the state
Enclosed in the documents is my contract of employment with **** Limited, dated 19 December 2011. As my employment started on 20 December 2011 and the company make salary payments on the last Friday of every month, my first payment of salary will be on the 27 January 2012 with the next salary payment on 24 February 2012. Therefore, once I received my payslips from ***** Limited on or around the 27 January 2012 and 24 February 2012, respectively, I will forward them onto you to be attached with the documents you already hold. As this is my first employment in the state I do not hold a recent P60 to supply to you. With regards to Tax Credits Certificate, I have also sent the 12A form of (Application for a Certificate of Tax Credits and Standard Rate Cut-Off Point) to the Revenue on 21 December 2011 and I currently waiting to receive my certificate. Again, once I receive this, I will forward onto you to accompany my wife’s application for a Residence Card.

If you have any further questions or queries with regards to this, please do not hesitate to contact me and I will do my best to resolve such queries.

Hopefully, they will actually read it and proceed accordingly. I would envisage that they will sent requests for the additional documents anyway.

Happy days and Happy New Year to EVERYONE!

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:48 am

Wonderful letter! I wish more people did things like that. Good for you in quoting the Spain case. Please please let us know how DOJ follows up!

But why are you going to provide proof that you are renting in Ireland? Even if you were living in an illegal squat, you are still entitled to a RC. Proof of a rental contract is not in the list of required things for an RC (except in Ireland).

IQU · Post by **IQU** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:52 pm

yes its one of the best letter i ever read it.good luck

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:32 am

Application sent 30 December 2011, registered post. Will arrive 3 January 2012.

When I receive a response from the DoJ I will post to update everyone.

Happy New Year!

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:55 pm

Welcome aboard, Andy.

sierra · Post by **sierra** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:27 am

hi andy can you pm please the coverinvg letter for non eu spouse visa which you enclosed with your wifes visa application to ankara embassy as i am applying in this month as wel, for my non eu spouse so we dont have to submit bank statement and employment details etc . i am british national also thanks in advance mate . or just copy it here so others can benefit as well

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:25 pm

Hi Sierra,

Here is a copy of the covering letter I sent for my wifes Accompany EU Spouse Visit visa. They issued a type C visa. Remember, I was with my aife in Azerbaijan and travelled with her. If you are not travelling with her you may need to change it some what.

Documents submitted:
Wife's Passport (NON-EU)
My passport (UK)
UK wedding cert
signed application
Copy of current visa to Azerbaijan, signed and dated (although this was in passport too, I wanted to highlight it to their attention.
Copy of signed UK dirving licence, signed and dated (just thought I would send this to show proof of address in UK, although this is not needed)

To whom it may concern:

Application Transaction Number: {your application number}

Application for visit visa: {wife’s name};{wife’s DOB}; Passport number: {wife’s passport number}

My name is {wife’s name}. I am applying for a visa to visit The Republic Of Ireland and the visa should be issued on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC. I will be travelling to Ireland with my husband from {your location{, to visit friends in Dublin and Ballina. My husband is also taking me for my birthday to visit the beautiful country.

From Directive 2004/38/EC, I quote from Article 5.1 and 5.2 (Right of Entry),

1) Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport.

No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.

2) Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

I am a direct family member of my husband, {your name}. {your name} is a citizen of the United Kingdom and his passport number is {your passport number}.

Enclosed is a copy of my husbands’ passport, who is currently on holiday in {your location , if you’re there} with me. Also enclosed is a copy of his current Visa to {location} which is proof that he is still in the country and intends to travel with me to Ireland, once I have been issued the said visa. I have also enclosed our original marriage certificate which took place on the {date of wedding} in {location}. We were married in UK so if you were not married in UK you will need to get a notarized copy to say it is genuine}.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to receiving my visa.

Yours faithfully,

Good luck with your application and let me know who you get on or if I can help anymore.

sierra · Post by **sierra** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:04 pm

many thanks andy this is realy gonna help to all those who are applying to accomapany non eu spouse visa .
we will be applying under same catogery as well to accompany the spouse i am british national and living in pakistan with my spouse for over 2years now . and we both have to travel to gether i got pakistani visas stamp on my passport as spouse of pakistani national i am gonna send photo copies of that and our marriage is reg is foreign office in pakistan which is just like british home office .
but as over here in pakistan its ony ireland consulate and despite many phone calls and emails they dont know about directives and they were asking for bank statement ,employment details etc of my pakistani spouse.
i think visa should be issued from the ireland karachi consulate only send them documents or either from ireland embassy tehran in iran.
going to attach all documents and some more material from the directives as well to avoid the bank statement and other stuff needed from visa any ways i sent an email to ankara embassy and they replied no no bank statment is needed but i have to apply from pakistan it was just to clarify family member of eu dont need the bank statment etc . thanks , mate . and will let know the out come of application

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:11 pm

Sierra,

Proof of relationship is all that's required. I assume when you say "British national" that you are in fact a British citizen (UK national) and not the holder of another form of British nationality.

sierra · Post by **sierra** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:30 pm

Ben Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:11 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sierra,

Proof of relationship is all that's required. I assume when you say "British national" that you are in fact a British citizen (UK national) and not the holder of another form of British nationality.

you are right ben i am british citizen or uk national that would be proper to say . and about proof of relationship we are married and marriage is registerd in pakistan for about 2 and half years in foreign office which is just like home office and i am on family visa which is just like uk spouse visa and there is no exit stamp on my passport since i came to pakistan we are living together as married couple .
i think t his is enough to prove our relationship our marriage is registerd for over 2 and half years or bit more and we are living to gether .
so in my opinion to prove realtionship its enough . that we are together for 2 and half years as married couple and passport stamps visa on my passport marriage certificate etc every thing proof that.
thanks again ben i

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:35 pm

That's all you need then so. And your passports. And your spouse's completed visa application form. Make clear that it's an EUTR visa that's being applied for.

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:17 pm

Got a letter in the post from EU treaty section. Acknowledging the application, sending back the original documents we sent to them and asking for the 2XPayslips and stuff about renting and utility bills etc etc. Saying once we send these in they will proceed with the application. No mention of coming to get the stamp 4 in her passport.

Tried calling them. IMPOSSIBLE! Don't bother. The correct option just tells you to email. I did that anyway. They spelt my name wrong 6 times on the letter and got the wrong date for our wedding and might I say a completely different day.

Her visa "expires" on 15 January 2012, because the idiot on the immigration desk at airport only stamped for 1.5 months, so this needed sorting today!

So off we went, with my head was up my arse, to the GNIB office in Dublin 2. Queued up. First guy useless. "need to resubmit application with the additional docs" He didn't know what he was talking about. Few tooing and throwing he finally admitted he was wrong and he just gives out the stamps....Anyway long story short. Left him to try someone else. FYI - he was probably the fattest guy that works there if you happen to go in, avoid him. He is useless!

I went to the reception/security and asked to speak to EU treaty rights section. Told not a public office and they don't speak to anyone. Call them or write into them. Explained situation. Still same answer. I asked for him to call them, he wouldn't. I demanded he said, and I quote "I'm fcuking sick of this" and tried to ring them. No joy - he walked off and another bloke came. He was fairly useless too. More arguing.

I wasn't going until I spoke with someone from EU treaty. 30 mins later he threatens me with he will get the guarda if I don't leave. I said go get them. Anyway, he came outside, took my letter and went off again. 10 mins later comes back and says come back at 1500 and someone will see you.

Came back at 1445 and the women didn't come down till 1535 to see us. She was fairly stupid too. The point she was trying to make didn't really make sense. Saying something like she wasn't sure if my wife was in Ireland or something. She said I can see she is here now so will give the stamp 4. She couldn't give today, for what reason, I don't know. So she "extended" the visit visa until 2 March 2012 and said we will get a letter next week to come get the stamp 4. Then we put the rest of the docs in and she will get RC.

Sort of got what I wanted out of it. I was going to argue saying these doc aren't required but I was tired of fighting at this point and I had to get back to work (at this point I had already had a 3 hour dinner

So waiting for the letter to come now so she can get the stamp 4 in her passport.

I must say, I am disgusted with how they operate at this section. Disgusted at the letter which is a breach of the directive with regards to documents required. How they did not read my letter, incorrectly spelt names and personal information. The incompetent staff that work there.

I would like to take it further about these additional documents. Also, is it 6 months from the point they acknowledge the application to when they have to give an answer?

Do you think I can contact solvit about this?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:42 pm

Welcome to Ireland.

Six months from submission of application is when residence card must be issued.

Temporary Stamp 4 in itself is not a right, but it's a welcome extra. Usually it's only offered once all requested documents have been received by the DoJ.

The GNIB does not issue Stamp 4 to family members of EEA nationals without authorisation from the DoJ.

If by "extending the visit visa" the woman endorsed Stamp 3 conditions in your wife's passport, then this is unlawful as such an endorsement prohibits employment.

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:28 am

Yes - She simply put a stamp in her passport, to make the type C visit visa extend from 1.5 months to the full 3 month term. We arrive on 2 December 2011 and it should have been stamped then until 2 March 2012 but the guy only done it to 15 January 2012 so she has just made it to 2 March 2012.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:34 am

Solvit, on the basis that the Irish authorities have endorsed your wife's passport with a stamp that causes to strip her of her right to work.

However, practically speaking, you've been promised temporary stamp 4 next week, so by the time the Solvit case is opened it will be closed again.

Muttsnuts · Post by **Muttsnuts** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:47 am

andyjohnst wrote:Got a letter in the post from EU treaty section. Acknowledging the application, sending back the original documents we sent to them and asking for the 2XPayslips and stuff about renting and utility bills etc etc. Saying once we send these in they will proceed with the application. No mention of coming to get the stamp 4 in her passport.

Tried calling them. IMPOSSIBLE! Don't bother. The correct option just tells you to email. I did that anyway. They spelt my name wrong 6 times on the letter and got the wrong date for our wedding and might I say a completely different day.

Her visa "expires" on 15 January 2012, because the idiot on the immigration desk at airport only stamped for 1.5 months, so this needed sorting today!

So off we went, with my head was up my arse, to the GNIB office in Dublin 2. Queued up. First guy useless. "need to resubmit application with the additional docs" He didn't know what he was talking about. Few tooing and throwing he finally admitted he was wrong and he just gives out the stamps....Anyway long story short. Left him to try someone else. FYI - he was probably the fattest guy that works there if you happen to go in, avoid him. He is useless!

I went to the reception/security and asked to speak to EU treaty rights section. Told not a public office and they don't speak to anyone. Call them or write into them. Explained situation. Still same answer. I asked for him to call them, he wouldn't. I demanded he said, and I quote "I'm fcuking sick of this" and tried to ring them. No joy - he walked off and another bloke came. He was fairly useless too. More arguing.

I wasn't going until I spoke with someone from EU treaty. 30 mins later he threatens me with he will get the guarda if I don't leave. I said go get them. Anyway, he came outside, took my letter and went off again. 10 mins later comes back and says come back at 1500 and someone will see you.

Came back at 1445 and the women didn't come down till 1535 to see us. She was fairly stupid too. The point she was trying to make didn't really make sense. Saying something like she wasn't sure if my wife was in Ireland or something. She said I can see she is here now so will give the stamp 4. She couldn't give today, for what reason, I don't know. So she "extended" the visit visa until 2 March 2012 and said we will get a letter next week to come get the stamp 4. Then we put the rest of the docs in and she will get RC.

Sort of got what I wanted out of it. I was going to argue saying these doc aren't required but I was tired of fighting at this point and I had to get back to work (at this point I had already had a 3 hour dinner :evil:

So waiting for the letter to come now so she can get the stamp 4 in her passport.

I must say, I am disgusted with how they operate at this section. Disgusted at the letter which is a breach of the directive with regards to documents required. How they did not read my letter, incorrectly spelt names and personal information. The incompetent staff that work there.

I would like to take it further about these additional documents. Also, is it 6 months from the point they acknowledge the application to when they have to give an answer?

Do you think I can contact solvit about this?

To be honest, you went about that all wrong. You should have supplied the documents as requested rather than going in and causing a scene. The INIS are entitled to request various proofs for an EU FAM stamp.

GNIB members don't have a clue as it's not their job to determine the completeness of applications, they check that you have permission to remain from INIS and if so, issue a stamp in your passport.

You have to remember that they're Civil Servants too so they are unwilling to do anything for you that goes even remotely outside their job description.

You're suggesting that their action is a breach of Directive 2004/38, maybe I'm missing something here, but can you point out what the exact breach is?

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:00 pm

INIS are not entitled to ask for various proof. The only thing you have to prove is that you are exercising your treaty rights buy providing contract of employment.

There is no requirement to supply rent books, rental agreements, utility bills pay slips etc etc.

I could be living as a traveler in a caravan. How could I supply proof of home owner/rent book etc etc then?

That is the breach,not Directive 2004/38. I have provided everything in accordance with ECJ Case C-157/03, Com/mission v Spain [2005] states that the documents we have provided fall in line with the documents required as laid down in Article 4(3)(c), (d) and (e) of Directive 68/360, Article 6 of Directive 73/148 and Article 2 of Directive 90/365. Those conditions [for a Residence Card] are exhaustive in nature (see, to that effect, Case 48/75 Royer [1976] ECR 497, paragraph 37; Case C-363/89 Roux [1991] ECR I-273, paragraphs 14 and 15; and Case C-376/89 Giagounidis [1991] ECR I-1069, paragraph 21).

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Directive/2004/38/EC - Ireland - Directions from arrival