Consultation on changes to employment-related settlement

Pandagon · Post by **Pandagon** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:00 pm

GSOtodd wrote:What about the "resident labour market test being eased for high earners". What are they on about there? Does that mean that all jobs over the salary of 31,000 are exempt from the resident labour market test or only certain jobs that will be making a contribution. Surely if it was all jobs over 31,000 pounds a year, that wouldn't be getting the immigrant numbers down.

I don't know where people get this £31,000 minimum number from. Dear Damien Green didn't for a second confirm 31k is the minimum threshold. In fact, he insisted 31k is the start of a 'range' to £49k, and the final policy is likely to set the minimum at a number between 31k and 49k. Even BBC journalists mis-construed what he outlined at the Policy Exchange in London.

Given that the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) loosely suggested a 35k figure a couple of month ago, it would be a leap of faith to think the Tory (NOT Labour or LD!) would lower the threshold to £31k. I personally think they would set the minimum at 40k at least with certain exceptions made to skilled workers in critical public sector jobs, such as scientists and nurses.

So the message for everyone should be getting ready for minimum 40k instead of holding onto your bare chance at 31k!

On another note, I really can't help wondering what the Tory plan to do with EU immigrants if they are serious at all about meeting their 'tens of thousands' target or achieving 'controllable" immigration levels in the future. These people can claim every single shilling a Brit is entitled to as soon as they show up on UK shores and are least likely to pay taxes given the kind of jobs they take. They stand in direct contrast/opposite to the new "Selectivity" and "Quality" principle D Green put forward.

More and more countries are joining the EU (especially the poorer and more populous ones, think Turkey!), even if all non-EU skilled workers leave the UK overnight, they still won't meet their target and immigration is still going to shoot over the roof! Except, this time the UK will be (well, already is!) swamped by extremely unskilled EU workers who repatriate all their earnings instead of skilled non-EU professionals who want to build a life here and contribute to the society.

Agastya80 · Post by **Agastya80** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:30 pm

fomsand1 wrote:Wow!, very very interesting. We all can only speculate what the outcome of this review will be and which category of visas this will affect. I know from history that they make some sort of provision for those already in the UK or those already on old schemes and that the policy on Immigration usually changes at the beginning of the fiscal year, usually April. But one thing that is certain here is that it will change. Now who it will affect or not is what remains unclear. On this basis, I can only say that prayers and unity of purpose is the only key. If all of us members on this forum are unified towards one cause like the JR guys (of which I believe we are far more than they were at the time), I strongly believe we will have a case.
Thumbs up if everyone is in support of this?

Hi, I am up for this cause.

barabashka · Post by **barabashka** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:59 am

Pandagon wrote: I don't know where people get this £31,000 minimum number from. Dear Damien Green didn't for a second confirm 31k is the minimum threshold. In fact, he insisted 31k is the start of a 'range' to £49k

You are right, they are not clear about that.
Moreover, at least to me it is not clear WHEN one has to meet the minimum salary requirement. In the consultations they wanted to decide on "temporary" (that do not lead to settlement) or "permanent" (that can lead to settlement) nature of visas at the time of entrance to UK. So, what if someone earns less than minimum at the entrance but more than minimum when he/she tries to apply for ILR?

On the other hand, what if someone earns more than minimum at the entrance but for one or another reason (lets say got ill) earns less than minimum later on when he/she applies for ILR...

Nanjing612 · Post by **Nanjing612** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:02 am

I can't help but feel very sad and angry about these changes. The UK has historically been a place where people could go to achieve a better life. Now, the UK has become a place where you can only stay if you somehow make the UK better. What they mean by 'quality of life', the fact that almost all the rules for settlement are bypassed if you have a very high net income, and the minimum salary requirements is simple: if you're not rich, or on the track to be upper-middle class then we don't want you'. i get the argument from their side, with all the migrants from the EU coming, all the other illegals etc, but from a strictly human rights perspective, it's pretty appalling. Their language requirements are well intended but poorly put into practice, too. All these reports of families being torn apart because one spouse doesn't speak English well enough are terrifying. I used to live in London, numerous times, and it was always clear to me that the city is lead by and catered to the rich. it's a shame that that is increasingly the case now as well as for the entire UK. i mean, fast tracking someone into settlement because they have a net value of millions of pounds or because they have a high salary? i don't know how some of these people sleep at night. i have a psw visa, but im currently in China. i was thinking of coming back to the UK but these changes are a major put off. i could contribute, too. i have a master's degree and a teaching certification. but what's the point if ill have to leave in 5 years? even if i found a job that paid the required amount, im sure they'd make yet another change in a few months to make it even harder to stay. they're going overboard with these changes. just my opinion.

barabashka · Post by **barabashka** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:44 am

Well, I guess they do have the right to limit immigration, or even to stop it completely - if they think it is going to be better for the country.
What they do not have a right to do is to let people in on certain conditions, and then later on change the conditions.
For example, what are the conditions for people that come to UK on Tier 2 visa TODAY? No one knows...this is unacceptable.

timarli · Post by **timarli** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:25 am

barabashka wrote:Well, I guess they do have the right to limit immigration, or even to stop it completely - if they think it is going to be better for the country.
What they do not have a right to do is to let people in on certain conditions, and then later on change the conditions.
For example, what are the conditions for people that come to UK on Tier 2 visa TODAY? No one knows...this is unacceptable.

This has been on UKBA's webpage for a while:

"If you are considering applying for settlement in the future, please note that the Immigration Rules are subject to change. You must meet all the requirements of the Immigration Rules at the time when you make your application."

To be fair anyone reading this and still coming to the UK is agreeing to take all the risk. At least this will be UKBA's response to any issues.

Unfortunately it wasn't there when I was coming or many others...and when I ask them "what do you expect me to do, I've been here for 4 years", the response is the same: above statement.

sheraz_aries · Post by **sheraz_aries** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:29 am

timarli wrote:
barabashka wrote:Well, I guess they do have the right to limit immigration, or even to stop it completely - if they think it is going to be better for the country.
What they do not have a right to do is to let people in on certain conditions, and then later on change the conditions.
For example, what are the conditions for people that come to UK on Tier 2 visa TODAY? No one knows...this is unacceptable.
This has been on UKBA's webpage for a while:

"If you are considering applying for settlement in the future, please note that the Immigration Rules are subject to change. You must meet all the requirements of the Immigration Rules at the time when you make your application."

To be fair anyone reading this and still coming to the UK is agreeing to take all the risk. At least this will be UKBA's response to any issues.

Unfortunately it wasn't there when I was coming or many others...and when I ask them "what do you expect me to do, I've been here for 4 years", the response is the same: above statement.

But you can see that they also mentioned that the changes would effect migracts entering point bas system from or on 6 april 2011.

what your thoughts on this?

Nanjing612 · Post by **Nanjing612** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:34 am

There are still plenty of questions to be answered, most of which are about salary thresholds. What I don't understand is why they would advertise a visa that offers up to 5 years maximum guaranteed time in the UK. They might as well make it one year. I mean, 5 years is more than enough time for a person to start a job, meet a spouse, have a child, move up in the workplace etc. All the while they're paying taxes. Does the UK really think that highly of itself? It surely couldn't. No one wants to waste half a decade of his life.

timarli · Post by **timarli** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:17 am

sheraz_aries wrote:
But you can see that they also mentioned that the changes would effect migracts entering point bas system from or on 6 april 2011.

what your thoughts on this?

That's what they initially said but now I feel like it'll apply to anyone regardless of when or how they entered any route to settlement...Which will mean I wasted my 4 years!

I hope I will be wrong. Ideally these changes would apply to "anyone who entered a work-related settlement route after the rules changed"...

But again the statement on their webpage is a HUGE (for me unacceptable tbh) risk. And by doing this they are giving themselves such a big space to play around. I think anyone entered the settlement routes after that note will have little ground to object unfortunately.

sheraz_aries · Post by **sheraz_aries** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:54 am

timarli wrote:
sheraz_aries wrote:
But you can see that they also mentioned that the changes would effect migracts entering point bas system from or on 6 april 2011.

what your thoughts on this?
That's what they initially said but now I feel like it'll apply to anyone regardless of when or how they entered any route to settlement...Which will mean I wasted my 4 years!

I hope I will be wrong. Ideally these changes would apply to "anyone who entered a work-related settlement route after the rules changed"...

But again the statement on their webpage is a HUGE (for me unacceptable tbh) risk. And by doing this they are giving themselves such a big space to play around. I think anyone entered the settlement routes after that note will have little ground to object unfortunately.

But here the document clearly says that any one came in pbs after apr 2011 so we don't need to be worry about it if we applied before apr 2011. Agree?

timarli · Post by **timarli** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:08 am

sheraz_aries wrote:
But here the document clearly says that any one came in pbs after apr 2011 so we don't need to be worry about it if we applied before apr 2011. Agree?

Agreed sheraz_aries.

Fingers crossed the changes will be reasonable...

I should stop speculating coz it's making me more worried.

We'll see in couple of days anyway

david1955 · Post by **david1955** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:00 pm

i believe a lot of people are worried about this. People should read the MAC suggestion and the ministerial statement. It clearly says it will apply for only those people who came on or after april 2011

Below are the document you should read

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... mmigration

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Agastya80 · Post by **Agastya80** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:29 pm

david1955 wrote:i believe a lot of people are worried about this. People should read the MAC suggestion and the ministerial statement. It clearly says it will apply for only those people who came on or after april 2011

Below are the document you should read

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... mmigration

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

the documents says it will affect anyone entering pbs after april 2011. but what about the scenarious like -

- switching into tier 2 general after april2011 from psw category

- switching into tier 2 general after april2011 from tier 2 ict category

does this type of switching will be considered as entering new and therefore new rules will apply? or not..... dont know the answers yet..

david1955 · Post by **david1955** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:35 pm

Agastya80 wrote:
david1955 wrote:i believe a lot of people are worried about this. People should read the MAC suggestion and the ministerial statement. It clearly says it will apply for only those people who came on or after april 2011

Below are the document you should read

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... mmigration

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary
the documents says it will affect anyone entering pbs after april 2011. but what about the scenarious like -

- switching into tier 2 general after april2011 from psw category

- switching into tier 2 general after april2011 from tier 2 ict category

does this type of switching will be considered as entering new and therefore new rules will apply? or not..... dont know the answers yet..

In first it would be considered as switching as you are changing the category, so it will go under new rules
i am not sure about the second scenario and it would be a two way situation , coz tier 2 ICT used to qualify for settlement before april 2011 ann since then they have closed tier 2 ICT for settlement

GSOtodd · Post by **GSOtodd** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:40 pm

I don't think they need to change the settlement rules. I think too many people already know before accepting a job in the UK that their stay in the UK is unstable. Who wants to walk around and invest in a home or car or what have you with your heart in your throat and egg shells under your feet all the time? I've already explained the survey that my old university did. Less than one percent wanted to move to anywhere on the continent, and maybe one percent New Zealand and Australia. NO ONE wanted the UK or Ireland.

And the funny thing is, that there are probably more UK ex pats in the US than any other nationality. I think it is funny that they seem compelled to go over to the US and take jobs from hard working Americans but yet when we come over here, many communities (including the one I am living in now) treat me like scum. Even though I've got indefinite leave to remain in the UK, it may be very difficult for me to get promoted or change jobs for the simple attitude towards non Brits and non-EU. I understand that there is a need to restrict immigration but, when you pull the carpet out from under people when they were invited here legally when there WAS a need, this hurts.

dms_sbs · Post by **dms_sbs** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:06 pm

In first it would be considered as switching as you are changing the category, so it will go under new rules
i am not sure about the second scenario and it would be a two way situation , coz tier 2 ICT used to qualify for settlement before april 2011 ann since then they have closed tier 2 ICT for settlement[/quote]

I Think after reading MAC and settlement consultation that it would affect those who may be eligible under current rules for settlement in 2016. I think that person switching from non settlement route to settlement route will not be eligible for sure

Pandagon · Post by **Pandagon** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:06 pm

barabashka wrote: Moreover, at least to me it is not clear WHEN one has to meet the minimum salary requirement. In the consultations they wanted to decide on "temporary" (that do not lead to settlement) or "permanent" (that can lead to settlement) nature of visas at the time of entrance to UK. So, what if someone earns less than minimum at the entrance but more than minimum when he/she tries to apply for ILR?

On the other hand, what if someone earns more than minimum at the entrance but for one or another reason (lets say got ill) earns less than minimum later on when he/she applies for ILR...

This is ultimately a "Settlement" consultation, so it would only apply at the point when you apply for ILR. The Tory has already toughened rules on work related entry clearance - remember the cap?...have to be skilled...good English no matter the job you are hired to do needs it or not, etc.

david1955 · Post by **david1955** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:18 pm

Pandagon wrote:
barabashka wrote: Moreover, at least to me it is not clear WHEN one has to meet the minimum salary requirement. In the consultations they wanted to decide on "temporary" (that do not lead to settlement) or "permanent" (that can lead to settlement) nature of visas at the time of entrance to UK. So, what if someone earns less than minimum at the entrance but more than minimum when he/she tries to apply for ILR?

On the other hand, what if someone earns more than minimum at the entrance but for one or another reason (lets say got ill) earns less than minimum later on when he/she applies for ILR...
This is ultimately a "Settlement" consultation, so it would only apply at the point when you apply for ILR. The Tory has already toughened rules on work related entry clearance - remember the cap?...have to be skilled...good English no matter the job you are hired to do needs it or not, etc.

Note that the Home Office is not obliged to follow MAC's recommendations, just like last year when they completely closed Tier 1 General when the MAC recommended otherwise. So, I won't be surprised if they set the minimum for ILR even higher than 49k!

Basically, what they are saying is - We will do whatever we need for political reasons, to stay in office, we don't give it a d*mn about your non-EU immigrants! Unless, of course, if you are super rich and can fund 100 Brits on the dole with your taxes alone, then we will happily take your money!

if this happens then soon there will a petition against the home office and home office will soon find itself in the same situation as there were on the previous two occasions eg : hsmp jr

Pandagon · Post by **Pandagon** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:05 pm

david1955 wrote: if this happens then soon there will a petition against the home office and home office will soon find itself in the same situation as there were on the previous two occasions eg : hsmp jr

Calm down dear!

I think the Home office must be busy beefing up it's in-house legal unit, otherwise it would not even dare to dream of setting an income threshold for less well off Brits who want to bring in non-EU spouses. A high percentage of people outside the Southeast live on less than 20k.

That's where the majority of imminent legal battles will come from. I have to say it's a step too far, and it is indeed against human rights. It's reprehensibly unfair that all the poor Eastern European immigrants can come with their jobless spouses as they wish while your own citizens are not allowed to live with the persons they love.

When has it become Ok for the EU immigrants to have more rights than the citizens of the UK? Intriguing...

imprezasti · Post by **imprezasti** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:39 pm

Section 4.200 from Mac reco is somewhat reassuring- no impact on nos till 2016... Although we'll see how bold Damian really is...

friday · Post by **friday** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:06 am

I am reading this topic again and I now feel worried about Tier 1 extensions to be closed !! Do you think there a good chance that they will close Tier 1 extensions? and just in case they decided to close Tier 1 extension, do you think that the rules will apply immediately (maybe in April 2012 or earlier) , will they allow few months before the closure of Tier1 apply?

Also, is there a prefered time of the year when the home office publish a new rules?

Sorry to be more specific, but I am worried cause my initial tier 1 visa will end in August 2012 and I can apply for ILR in August 2013, so my next step is tier 1 extension which should give me more than enough time to apply for ILR due in August 2013. I plan to apply for tier 1 extension in June 2012!?Do you guys think I should apply for tier 1 extension much earlier to be on safe side? maybe next month?

thanks.

barker · Post by **barker** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:10 am

david1955 wrote:i believe a lot of people are worried about this. People should read the MAC suggestion and the ministerial statement. It clearly says it will apply for only those people who came on or after april 2011

Below are the document you should read

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... mmigration

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

If you go to page 7 of the analysis document, the second link posted by david1955, the chairmans foreword contains the text We estimate that between 10,000 and 38,000 Tier 1 and Tier 2 main applicants and dependants per year would, under the do nothing option, be granted settlement in each 12 month period from 2016 onwards (the first year any new settlement rules will have a direct effect).

Is there still any reason to feel that these changes will apply to people who are on visas in relevant categories issued before April 2011?

friday · Post by **friday** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:44 pm

I am worried if they close Tier 1 (General) extension, this means we need to switch to Tier 2 in 2012 and therefore, the new rules will apply to us.

May you please guys share your thoughts about the possibility of Tier 1 (General) extension closure?

friday wrote:I am reading this topic again and I now feel worried about Tier 1 extensions to be closed !! Do you think there a good chance that they will close Tier 1 extensions? and just in case they decided to close Tier 1 extension, do you think that the rules will apply immediately (maybe in April 2012 or earlier) , will they allow few months before the closure of Tier1 apply?

Also, is there a prefered time of the year when the home office publish a new rules?

Sorry to be more specific, but I am worried cause my initial tier 1 visa will end in August 2012 and I can apply for ILR in August 2013, so my next step is tier 1 extension which should give me more than enough time to apply for ILR due in August 2013. I plan to apply for tier 1 extension in June 2012!?Do you guys think I should apply for tier 1 extension much earlier to be on safe side? maybe next month?

thanks.

Post by **Greenie** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:47 pm

friday wrote:I am worried if they close Tier 1 (General) extension, this means we need to switch to Tier 2 in 2012 and therefore, the new rules will apply to us.

May you please guys share your thoughts about the possibility of Tier 1 (General) extension closure?

there is absolutely nothing to suggest they are going to close Tier 1 general to those who are already here in that category (or in a pre-PBS category from which switching into Tier 1 G is permitted.

I think people 'sharing their thoughts' is just going to fuel what is already a completely unfounded concern that you have.

rbk1597 · Post by **rbk1597** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:27 pm

Greenie, are you suggesting that those in pre-PBS categories atm are able to switch into Tier 1 General as we speak???

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Consultation on changes to employment-related settlement