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IOC & British

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

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gokul76
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IOC & British

Post by gokul76 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:52 am

Dear friends
Please guide me over this. I came to Uk from India with a student Visa on 2001. Still studying. I study and also work part time. This year I got my French Passport as one of my parent was French ( the pondichery thingi!). So now I hold Indian and French passport. I am thinking to give back my Indian passport and try for ILR through my french. Will I qualify for it. Which is better : asking for IOC or renouncing Inidan citizenship.Please help. I think I need to fill in EEA3. Is supporting documents like my university attendence letter and pay slip enough. I have got seals on my Indian passport that I came to Uk on 2001. I have never been out of this country more than 6 months.what exactly should I do now. Please guide? Please also let me know the cost of the process?

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:10 pm

Firstly, you lost your Indian citizenship the moment you aquired French citizenship. There is no need to renounce your Indian citizenship because you are already no longer an Indian citizen! Congratulations.

Secondly, why do you want to apply for ILR in the UK if you have just aquired French citizenship which allows you live here unrestricted for as long as you want? The only reasons I can think of are if you want to aquire British citizenship, or you want your children or dependents to aquire British citizenship.

Unfortunately from what you have described, you don't qualify for ILR either as an Indian citizen or as a French citizen.

You don't qualify as an Indian citizen because you are no longer an Indian citizen, and even if you were you don't fulfil the requirements for ILR under the 10 year rule because you haven't been here in the UK for 10 years yet. Although this is a moot point because you are no longer an Indian citizen.

You don't qualify for ILR as French citizen either, because in order for an EU citizen to obtain ILR in the UK they have to have lived here for 5 years. Although you seem to have lived in the UK for 5 years, it was under your Indian passport and not your French passport, so your ILR clock only started ticking when you aquired your French citizenship.

In any case, be happy, you have an EU passport and you can live anywhere in the EU for as long as you like. There's really no need to get ILR in the UK unless, as I said, you or your dependants want to eventually become British citizens. If this is the case, then you have 5 years to wait until you get ILR and then another year of living here as a holder of ILR before you can apply for British citizenship.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

gokul76
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Post by gokul76 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:36 pm

Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Yes I intend to get British citizenship eventually. I have a few doubts. 1. Does France and India dont allow dual citizenship. I beleive India and france do. So how can I loose Indian citizenship without renouncing?. So if in this case any consideration of ILR years to be reduced?

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:39 pm

gokul76 wrote:Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Yes I intend to get British citizenship eventually. I have a few doubts. 1. Does France and India dont allow dual citizenship. I beleive India and france do. So how can I loose Indian citizenship without renouncing?. So if in this case any consideration of ILR years to be reduced?
In general, France does allow dual citizenship but India does not.

Losing Indian citizenship and becoming French does not in itself affect your UK immigration status. However, your time as a student does not count for ILR except under the 10 year rule.

It would be simpler to switch your status now to that of EEA citizen and then you will get ILR in 5 years (from now).

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:44 pm

gokul76 wrote:Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Yes I intend to get British citizenship eventually. I have a few doubts. 1. Does France and India dont allow dual citizenship. I beleive India and france do. So how can I loose Indian citizenship without renouncing?. So if in this case any consideration of ILR years to be reduced?
You lost your Indian citizenship without renouncing it because under Indian citizenship laws anyone who voluntarily aquires the citizenship of another country AUTOMATICALLY loses their Indian citizenship from the moment they aquire the other citizenship.

Make no mistake, if your circumstances are as you have described, then you are no longer an Indian citizen.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

gokul76
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Post by gokul76 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:20 pm

I still beleive India allows dual citizenship http://www.workpermit.com/news/indians_ ... enship.htm
I got my french because one of my parent is French. So I beleive I had 2 citizenship right from my birth to an Indian and French parents. However my paperwork was not done when I became 18 and as Iam 29 now I had to explain quite a lot and got my French.
However, I dont mind loosing Indian citizenship but will I get wrong if I ask them mulitple visa to India as I have got my relatives there and few properties.

gokul76
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Post by gokul76 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:43 pm


British
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Post by British » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:11 pm

Hi gokul,

The links you have given here are all talking something totally different - not "Indian citizenship". They are talking about OCI and an OCI is just nothing but a long term VISA to visit India.

If you still not convinced, try entering India with your Indian passport which you are claming to be valid even now, and you will be arrested for committing a criminal offense under the Indian citizenship Act, since they will charge you that you entered Indian borders with an Indian passport that is not valid anymore and you clamined to be an Indian citizen to the Immigration officers when in reality you have lost it the moment you had aquired the French citizenship.

I knew from the begining that Indians (and all others too!) will never understand this thing about OCI. They will all think it is citizenship, but in reality it is nothing more than an extended PIO card.

That is all i can say, then its upto you!

Anyway, rest assured that you are not an Indian citizen anymore.

Also as per Indian laws, you are supposed to surrender your Indian passport to the Indian consulate within a resonable period of time after aquiring your another citizenship, and you can get it back (if you need it for record purposes) after cancelling your invalid indian passport.

You may say, pepole hardly do this practically, but i would suggest it is better to get this done, sinec it is illegal to hold an uncancelled Indian passport by a non-indian citizen.

JAJ
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Australia

Post by JAJ » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:35 pm

British wrote: If you still not convinced, try entering India with your Indian passport which you are claming to be valid even now, and you will be arrested for committing a criminal offense under the Indian citizenship Act, since they will charge you that you entered Indian borders with an Indian passport that is not valid anymore and you clamined to be an Indian citizen to the Immigration officers when in reality you have lost it the moment you had aquired the French citizenship.
It seems he acquired French citizenship at birth (if he had a French parent) so the point at which he would have lost Indian citizenship would have been when he obtained a French passport.

gokul76
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Post by gokul76 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:27 am

Thanks British for your guidance. I will call the Indian embassy and ask an appointment to return my passport and anything else I have to do. Ok, my concern is about British as I said and Jaj agreed I am french by birth because one of parent is French. She was French by birth aswell . Her French nationality certificate was on 1956. My grand parents (maternal side) are French since 1923, I beleive my great grandfather was also French. So why my ILR does not count from 2001. I did my paper work late, I agree but I am french by birth and so I dont understand.

Marco 72
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Post by Marco 72 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:47 pm

JAJ wrote:Losing Indian citizenship and becoming French does not in itself affect your UK immigration status. However, your time as a student does not count for ILR except under the 10 year rule.
I disagree. If what he has written is correct, then it sounds like he has been a French citizen since birth. According to the instructions on form EEA3 (page 2) studying is a way of exercising Treaty Rights in the UK, so he may well qualify.

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:04 pm

Marco 72 wrote:
JAJ wrote:Losing Indian citizenship and becoming French does not in itself affect your UK immigration status. However, your time as a student does not count for ILR except under the 10 year rule.
I disagree. If what he has written is correct, then it sounds like he has been a French citizen since birth. According to the instructions on form EEA3 (page 2) studying is a way of exercising Treaty Rights in the UK, so he may well qualify.
If you read the poster's original message you will see that he originally entered the UK on an Indian passport with a student visa and only received his French passport THIS year. Therefore he was not exercising his treating rights in the UK and does not qualify for ILR at all since he has only begun exercising his treaty rights this year.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

ppron747
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Post by ppron747 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:16 pm

I agree - although it occurs to me that it might be worth giving it a try, given that no fee is involved. I wonder if the path might be smoothed if it were possible to get an official letter from the French consulate confirming that gokul76 has been a French citizen since birth - or since his parent obtained it - whichever is applicable...

Only a thought...
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
Want a 2nd opinion? One will be along shortly....

gokul76
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Post by gokul76 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

yes I think I will ask french embassy to provide me a letter on what basis I am offered French. I am sure its because my mum is French. So then it should from my birth I am french. I will ask a letter of them.

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:10 pm

I do not think you will get very far. The guidance notes for permanent residency applications for EU nationals:

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/docume ... iew=Binary

quite clearly state you must have to have been exercising your treat rights as the national of an EU state for the previous 5 years before your application.

If you do apply the Home Office is unlikely to be able match your French identity with your Indian records in their immigration system and therefore will not know that haven't actually been exercising your treaty rights, however when you submit your supporting documentation to them to prove how long you have been living here, items such as college records, tax records, etc might very well reveal the fact that you entered the country as an Indian citizen on a student visa and remained as such right up until this year when you received your French passport.

It wouldn't take much for a caseworker reviewing your application to find it rather odd that your supporting documentation indicates that you have lived as an Indian citizen with a student visa in the UK for the last 5 years and are now trying claim permanent residency as a French citizen.

But having said that, I suppose it's worth a try. You might be lucky enough to have a dim caseworker.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:25 pm

then it sounds like he has been a French citizen since birth.
I believe that having a French mother does not automatically confer French citizenship. You have an entitlement to it. Not the same thing.

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