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EEA3 - Permanent residence

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

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JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:35 am

micka wrote:I am applying for the Permanent Residence status because I believe I am eligible
You'll find out when the Home Office decides your application. But it does appear that unless you can prove you held Lithuanian citizenship prior to 1 May 2004 you may have a problem (you might have a problem anyway).

Also be aware that if your EEA permanent residence application is refused, it may be too late to revert to making an application for ILR based on your work permit.

Your choice on how to proceed. Ordinarily one would advise getting specialist legal advice, although in the circumstances it would probably be cheaper just to pay the fee for ILR under normal rules when you qualify.

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Post by John » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:40 am

It depends on whether he applied for Lithuanian citizenship, or just a first Lithuanian passport
Of course, but the words he chose to you were "As of 4 weeks ago I was granted Lithuanian citizenship.", which seems to suggest he was not a Lithuanian citizen say 5 weeks ago.

If however he has been a Lithuanian citizen for years and now has simply got his first Lithuanian passport, well that of course would be very different.

But Micka, if that is not the case, I think JAJ has given you good advice. You might want to get specialist legal advice before proceeding to put in an application. But wait a minute, that would probably cost you more than the £500 you are trying to save! Might be safer and easier just to pay that £500 to IND and not take any risk.
John

micka
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Post by micka » Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:45 am

This is all very interesting. You are all adamant that the Home Office is going to pick on this tiny technicallity for what...to get £500 out of me, considering I would be eligible for ILR but you think not EEA.

If you want to start talking about laws, well the Lithuanian citizenship laws states that "The following persons shall be citizens of the Republic of Lithuania. 1) ..." Where 1 is spot on my circumstances (Grandfather). So without a layers advice, I would claim that that meant I have always been Lithuanian, this paperwork and passport was just the process needed to prove it to the rest of the world...

However I am not arguing here. I will fill out the form as it states and no Home office person is going to dig into my Lithuanian history to try and discover the date I applied for the 'paperwork' becasue there will be no reason to. As I said above, there is no indication of 'start dates'. I will have a letter of Employment from my one employer for the last 5 years and voila...

I hear the Home Office is already in a state. I mean, they almost threw me out of the country at customs AFTER my work permit was approved because I had yet to pick up the paperwork. Go the communication.

And lastly (trying not to rant),
1 - if it is refused I get a resident permit, no biggy.
2 - If I leave for more than 2 years I probably don't want to come back anyway (Though HIGHLY likely I would get back in on EU rights)
3 - I don't hear any news about UK about to dissalow EU treaty rights and leave the EU - will worry about that if it happens. Geez, they are letting almost anyone through the fence in these days. (Bad joke)
4 - Girlfriend is British so if still with her then have other routes (in the unlikely even of a problem...)
5 - Australia is a lot warmer than Britain (though sometimes too hot, hence why here) but I will have a home somewhere.

I am not in some life/death situation that hinges on this decision. Which is why I find this almost heated discussion amusing.

Thanks all

popeye
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Post by popeye » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:47 pm

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/lawand ... ules/part7

EEA Nationals and their families

Settlement

255. Any person (other than a student) who under, either the Immigration (European Economic Area) Order 1994, or the 2000 EEA Regulations has been issued with a residence permit or residence document valid for 5 years, and who has remained in the United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of that Order or those Regulations (as the case may be) for 5 years and continues to do so may, on application, have his residence permit or residence document (as the case may be) endorsed to show permission to remain in the United Kingdom indefinitely.

255A. This paragraph applies where a Swiss national has been issued with a residence permit under the 2000 EEA Regulations and, prior to 1st June 2002, remained in the United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of these Rules and in a capacity which would have entitled that Swiss national to apply for indefinite leave to remain after a continuous period of 5 years in that capacity in the United Kingdom. Where this paragraph applies, the period during which the Swiss national remained in the United Kingdom prior to 1st June 2002 shall be treated as a period during which he remained in the United Kingdom in accordance with the 2000 EEA Regulations for the purpose of calculating the 5 year period referred to in paragraph 255.

255B. This paragraph applies where an Accession State national has been issued with a residence permit under the 2000 EEA Regulations and, prior to 1st May 2004, remained in the United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of these Rules and in a capacity which would have entitled that Accession State national to apply for indefinite leave to remain after a continuous period of 5 years in that capacity in the United Kingdom.

Where this paragraph applies, the period during which the Accession State national remained in the United Kingdom prior to 1st May 2004 shall be treated as a period during which he remained in the United Kingdom in accordance with the 2000 EEA Regulations for the purpose of calculating the 5 year period referred to in paragraph 255.

http://www.official-documents.co.uk/doc ... 3/1053.pdf

4. Paragraphs 255 to 255B are deleted but this is subject to the transitional provision in paragraph 5.
5. Paragraphs 255 to 255B shall continue to apply for the purpose of determining an application made before 30th April 2006 for an endorsement under paragraph 255.

popeye
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Post by popeye » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:54 pm

http://www.official-documents.co.uk/doc ... 3/1053.pdf
“2.3 From 30 April 2006, EU nationals and their family members acquire a permanent right of
residence under certain conditions and generally after five years of residence in the host Member State under European law.”

“7.(a) the introduction of a permanent right of residence in a host Member State, which generally
applies after 5 years residence in that Member State by an individual, provided that during
this period s/he has been exercising”

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/lawand ... memohc1053

“2.4 Regulations 15 and 18 of the 2006 Regulations transpose this right of permanent residence contained in the Directive and apply it to all EEA nationals and their family members.”

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/em2006/uksiem_20061003_en.pdf

Article 16 Directive 2004/38 General rule for Union citizens and their family members
16(1) Union Citizens who have resided continuously for a period of five years in a host Member State shall have a right of permanent residence.
E Preminalo 4rez national Legislation 4rez :

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/em2006/uksiem_20061003_en.pdf
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061003.htm

THE IMMIGRATION (EUROPEAN ECONOMIC AREA) REGULATIONS 2006
CHAPTER IV – RIGHT OF PERMANENT RESIDENCE
Regulation 15(1)(a):
15. —(1) The following persons shall acquire the right to reside in the United Kingdom permanently—
(a) an EEA national who has resided in the United Kingdom in accordance with these Regulations for a continuous period of five years;
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/sit ... 770123.pdf

Article 16 of the Directive states that: “Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.” Residence is not conditional on any other condition than having been lawfully resident in that country.

Bye Bye Accesion Member Citizens Description, Bye Bye Counting Before After etc...

All replaced on 30 April 2006 by :
"legally for a continuous period of five years"

Residence is not conditional on any other condition than having been lawfully resident in that country.

Right of permanent residence

"Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them."
Last edited by popeye on Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:13 pm

popeye wrote: "Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them."
I doubt it will work if one has not been an EEA citizen for that full five year period.

popeye
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Post by popeye » Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:52 pm

Yet According to EUROPE DIRECT SIGNPOST SERVICE, that is what they said abot the directive:

Directive 2004/38. This Directive gives EU citizens who have the right to reside in an EU country for the previous five years. In particular, Article 16 of the Directive states that: “Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.” Residence is not conditional on any other condition than having been lawfully resident in that country. As a result it appears that, if you have been resident in the UK for 5 years or more on 1st January 2007 then you should be able to rely on that provision.

SIGNPOST SERVICE - Please Do Not Reply To This Email - Answer to the enquiry 32330 posted on 25/10/2006

Enquiry posted on
25/10/2006

Enquiry
32330:

Reply
Dear Mr Popeye, Thank you for your query. We understand from your query that you wish to know if, when Bulgaria joins the EU in 2007, whether you will be able to benefit from the right to obtain permanent residency under the terms of Directive 2004/38. This Directive gives EU citizens who have the right to reside in an EU country for the previous five years. In particular, Article 16 of the Directive states that: “Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.” Residence is not conditional on any other condition than having been lawfully resident in that country. As a result it appears that, if you have been resident in the UK for 5 years or more on 1st January 2007 then you should be able to rely on that provision. The UK’s recently announced restrictions apply to employed workers not self-employed workers and these should therefore have no impact on your right to claim permanent resident. The only circumstances in which you will not have such a right will be in the case where the Accession Treaty explicitly limits the full application of Directive 2004/38 until the end of the transitional period. The full details will be known when the accession treaty is signed between the EU and Romania. You can find out more from this official EU website: http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/romania/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/key_doc ... 006_en.htm You may wish to contact us again at that time to obtain clarification on the issue. We hope this answers your query. Yours sincerely, Citizens Signpost Service

The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission.

Note: To post another enquiry, please visit the Signpost Service Web Site or contact EUROPE DIRECT


and acording to:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061003.htm#15
15. —(1) The following persons shall acquire the right to reside in the United Kingdom permanently—



(a) an EEA national who has resided in the United Kingdom in accordance with these Regulations for a continuous period of five years;

and this:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/em2006/uksiem_20061003_en.pdf

http://www.official-documents.co.uk/doc ... 3/1053.pdf
4.2 The provision in the Directive for permanent residence (under European law) supersedes the
provision for EEA nationals to be granted permanent residence under UK domestic law as set out
in the Immigration Rules.
Further minor consequential amendments to the Immigration Rules are
also required to reflect the coming into force of the 2006 Regulations.


http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l33152.htm
Right of permanent residence

Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them. This right of permanent residence is no longer subject to any conditions
Last edited by popeye on Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Marco 72
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Post by Marco 72 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:28 pm

popeye wrote:Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them. This right of permanent residence is no longer subject to any conditions
Does this mean one no longer needs to have "exercised Treaty rights" during this time, or even to have been an EEA citizen throughout the whole period?

popeye
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Post by popeye » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:50 pm

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/applyi ... unationals
"On 30 April 2006 the United Kingdom implemented Directive 2004/38/EC on the Free Movement of Persons. The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 transpose the provisions of this Directive into UK domestic legislation. The Regulations will be available shortly on this website. All European applications made on or after 30 April 2006 will be considered in accordance with these Regulations and with the revised European Casework Instructions (ECIs) which will also be available shortly on this site."




with the implementation of the Citizens' Directive, 2004/38 EC, the Home Office has issued a new set of operational instructions, the European Casework Instructions
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/docume ... iew=Binary

2. Eligibility for permanent residence
The following are eligible under Regulation 15 of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations
2006:
• EEA nationals who have resided in the UK (in accordance with the
Regulations) for a continuous period of 5 years;

nothing Else...IF you can see Treaty Rights somewhere I will be happy to admit that I am Wrong or the letter above is wrong :

apart from non-EEA national family member, tere is no mentioning of treaty rights anymore, there is no other condition as far I can see
"• EEA nationals who have resided in the UK (in accordance with the
Regulations) for a continuous period of 5 years;" :

The following documents must be supplied by a non-EEA national family memberwho has retained the right of residence and who is applying for a Permanent
Residence Card under Regulation 15(1)(f) having completed 5 years residency:
• A valid passport
• Documentation confirming that s/he has completed 5 years residency in
accordance with the 2006 Regulations as the family member of an EEA
national exercising Treaty rights / as a person who has retained the right of residence.


Anyway if I am wrong or this is doubtful , guys , please excuse me...

popeye
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Post by popeye » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:31 pm

Yet this is some kind of a Joke, because if these are the updated ECIS:

Accesion State Citizens:
"9. Permanent Residence
A8 Nationals and their family members are eligible for permanent residence once they have exercised their Treaty Rights in the United Kingdom for 5 years.
The time spent in the United Kingdom prior to 1 May 2004 does not count towards the qualifying period for permanent residence. However time spent as a registered worker on the Workers Registration Scheme will count towards the qualifying period. If we receive a request for permanent residence the applicant should be informed that /she does not qualify for permanent residence and will only be entitled to a document certifying permanent residence when s/he has exercised Treaty Rights for 5 years in the United Kingdom. S/he should also be told that his/her application will be treated as withdrawn after 28 days unless s/he indicates in writing, that s/he wishes to continue with his/her application. A letter informing the applicant of the above can be found at Annex F of this chapter.
NB: Employment prior to 1 May 2004 does not count towards the qualifying period. This would also include people in self-employment under the ECAA association agreement or those who were granted leave to enter or remain under the Immigration Rules in categories leading to settlement. Should the applicant choose to continue with the application, s/he should be refused on the basis that s/he has not exercised Treaty Rights for 5 years in the UK. Please refer to Chapter 6 for details on refusing permanent residence."

And look into The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061003.htm

I cant see any Descriptions as before of an A8 national or an Accession State national and Just Union Citizens.

So I gues Somebody is really in Mistake:

"have exercised their Treaty Rights" from above against :

“Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.” Residence is not conditional on any other condition than having been lawfully resident in that country."

Somebody have to ask HOIND if this is their Upated Guidance and why
Descriptions as before of an A8 national or an Accession State national still exist, also when we dirrective is only talking about Legal Residence of Union Citizens.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pd ... ookieSet=1

Directive 2004/38/EC on the Rights of Citizens of the Union and their Family Members to Move and Reside Freely:

"What are the most important new features presented by the Directive? Among others,we underline the following five.
First, the Directive abolishes the sector-by-sector or piecemeal approach to free movement rights. It replaces, integrates, and supplements the existing Community legal instruments dealing separately with the categories of workers, self-employed persons,students, and other economically inactive groups. This is a very positive step forward because it goes beyond the current narrow approach of dealing with each category of persons separately, which often resulted in a fragmentation of the concept of EU citizenship. In addition, the Directive codifies the main principles recognised and developed by the Court of Justice’s jurisprudence. By doing so, it simplifies and strengthens the right of free movement and residence of all Union citizens by reducing the disparities that seem to persist between the treatment of nationals of the host Member State and EU citizens exercising their free movement rights in that state."
Last edited by popeye on Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Marco 72
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Post by Marco 72 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:32 pm

Even if that is the case, the IND doesn't seem to have taken any notice. Form EEA3 (version 08/2006) states, among other things:

To qualify for permanent residence you need to have excercised a Treaty right in the UK for 5 years through employment, self employment, study, economic self sufficiency, retirement or permanent incapacity (provide details below and continue on a seperate sheet if neccessary). If you have been supported by the employment or funds of a family member you may still qualify. If you were excercising rights in ways other than employment, self-employment or study, please state the category (eg economic self-sufficency) in the space(s) for employer/school/college addresses for the year(s) concerned. [...] We will require documentary evidence of the exercise of Treaty rights over a 5 year period.

popeye
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Post by popeye » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:49 pm

I guess this is the first stop:
http://ec.europa.eu/community_law/compl ... dex_en.htm

Let them know how infringed you feel about the administrative (action or practice) that they have put in practice and lodge a complaint, somebody is definitely doing a big mistake, I think is HO adopting fully the Directive 2004/38/EC , making a national legislation and then continuing to operate the same old policy at the same time when they state that the Directive is already operating trough national legislation:
(The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006):

http://www.official-documents.co.uk/doc ... 3/1053.pdf
4.2 The provision in the Directive for permanent residence (under European law) supersedes the provision for EEA nationals to be granted permanent residence under UK domestic law as set(Look Notes) out in the Immigration Rules. Further minor consequential amendments to the Immigration Rules are also required to reflect the coming into force of the 2006 Regulations.

I don't know man...I gues you have to consult EU Bodies this is my best bet ...

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/comparl/l ... ult_en.htm
Directive 2004/38/EC, was adopted on 29 April 2004. It provides for maintaining the right of residence without formality to periods of less than three months, and granting the right of permanent residence after a continuous period of residence of five years, for active European Union citizens, students, or those who have sufficient resources to support themselves or the members of their family so that they are not a burden on social assistance in the host Member State.

http://www.cesifo.de/link/_special/spec ... b-2004.htm
http://www.cesifo-group.de/link/special ... 2004-e.pdf

D. Right of permanent residence
Article 16 (1):
“Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III [i.e., Articles 6–15, among these the existence of sufficient resources and comprehensive sickness insurance cover].”

Second, expulsion is ruled out if individuals have acquired a right of permanent residence. Formally, this right is granted after a maximum of five years of legal residence without interruptions of more than six months per year. (Only in the case of absence of two or more years in continuity is the right lost).

After five years, a right of permanent residence is also given to persons who are not employed. It is granted without any further conditions, even if these individuals do not have sufficient resources or comprehensive sickness insurance cover.




http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/sit ... 770123.pdf
Right of permanent residence
Section I - Eligibility - Article 16

General rule for Union citizens and their family members

1. Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.

Note:
3. Continuity of residence shall not be affected by temporary absences not exceeding a total of six
months a year, or by absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service, or by one
absence of a maximum of twelve consecutive months for important reasons such as pregnancy and
childbirth, serious illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another Member State or a
third country.

Marco 72
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Post by Marco 72 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:27 pm

This is interesting: it would appear that the UK is in violation of Directive 2004/38/EC, which should have been transposed to national legislation by 30 April 2006. If some people are affected by this, they might consider consulting an experienced immigration solicitor to check if there's anything that can be done. Personally I wouldn't be too optimistic, unless they have a lot of money.

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Post by JAJ » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:29 pm

popeye wrote: “Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.” Residence is not conditional on any other condition than having been lawfully resident in that country."
Popeye, instead of quoting vast tracts of legislation, why not give a little interpretation as well? There is no doubt that an EEA citizen exercising Treaty Rights for 5 years is entitled to permanent residence after 5 years.

However, there is no clarity on some of the following cases:

- a person admitted to the UK in another capacity who acquires an EEA nationality after admission to the UK; and

- a dual EEA/other citizen who is admitted to the United Kingdom under the Immigration Rules in another capacity on the basis of his "other" nationality.

There is no doubt that any of these people could switch to EEA status once in the United Kingdom, but the 5 year clock for permanent residence may start from that point and not backdated to the original arrival in the UK.

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Post by JAJ » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:30 pm

Marco 72 wrote:This is interesting: it would appear that the UK is in violation of Directive 2004/38/EC, which should have been transposed to national legislation by 30 April 2006.
The UK implemented the directive on 30 April 2006.

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Post by popeye » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:54 am

JaJ I am sorry, I am also stuck on this topic for some time, so When you look at the directive and the legislation, it is absolutely clear that you don't have to be in UK exercising your Right of Residence trough Self-Employment or Employment, With the directive By interpreting it JAJ, we can see what the Germans state :
“After five years, a right of permanent residence is also given to persons who are not employed. It is granted without any further conditions, even if these individuals do not have sufficient resources or comprehensive sickness insurance cover. “
And I can’t see any Treaty rights mentioned in this quote.

I give up on interpreting anymore, read the letter from The SIGNPOST SERVICE, SIGNPOST answer was:

"Residence is not conditional on any other condition than having been in that country."

I have tried to find documents that prove the answer right, unconditional Residence other than lawfully resident ...Which cannot reset the clock because is unconditional JAJ.That is why I quote so much interpretations by someone else, or the legislations itself.
From April 2006 to EU Citizens IN the UK apply only the EU directive trough national legislation.
Why not JAJ the Directive is Speaking of Union Citizens ant this is one of the conditions - European Citizen
, the second is the 5 Years continuous residence without absences not exceeding a total of six months a year.

“Residence is not conditional on any other condition than having been lawfully resident in that country”

WHY not JAJ?don't have to quote you...:)
the directive is giving all EU Citizens same advantage and is actually Making a provision where Bourgeois Categories ( self-employed, Employed) and the others stop to exist, all under single description Union Citizens.

This topic JAJ is quite a Complicated one, but looking at the Directive, I can't see why and how a Government Body would refuse a Permanent Residnce Permit if these two condition are met.

This is my opinion and is not a rule and I am not an Expert , you also have your opinion which I respect and understand well.
And because the directive is taking over any national Law you can actually ask ECAS or SIGNPOST SERVICE to give you an answer as they are in position to give answers to those who need them in case of right of movement or residency problems.

Thanks JAJ I did not intend to spam the Topic or quote so much just to annoy someone, only tried to prove the answer of the letter right and this was for myself, and this is because I am not a believer, same as you.
Last edited by popeye on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JAJ » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:09 am

popeye wrote: This is my opinion and is not a rule and I am not an Expert , you also have your opinion which I respect and understand well.
I see no evidence that the legislation grants automatic permanent residence to the cases mentioned (eg where individual acquires EEA citizenship after admission in another capacity).

Of course you are entitled to any opinion you like, however you might have a court battle on your hands if you'd like it to be tested. And until a definitive court ruling is made, your opinion is just that - an opinion, not necessarily a definitive interpretation of the law!

popeye
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Post by popeye » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:40 am

If you are third country Citizen you need to be covered by the National Immigration LAW.
If you are Union citizen you are covered by the Directive and any national law is just a legislation of the directive.

If you are British you can take advantage of the both when returning from abroad.
Once you become a Union Citizen you are retreated as A Union citizen and protected against discrimination based on nationality, non discrimination rule is applied to every Union citizen and if other EU citizen can rely on the directive the same rules should apply to the without discrimination, only the Accession Agreements limits the Directive and its scope with transitional period 2+3+2, but they only concern accession to the labour market and not the other fundamental rights.
Once being in the country and fit into the description, trough the directive (5 years, non Conditions) and the non-discrimination policy all the rules apply to all Union Citizens.

European citizenship of a person derives from their nationality of an EU Member State.

So Why do you think anyone who is European Citizen by nationality should be treated in different way, once relying on the integrated policy or the directive should in fact be treated in the same way that all other members are treated(except the Accession Treaties). The Requirement is Nationality, Lawful residence for five years …regardless “any other condition than having been lawfully resident in that country”
the directive is talkig about lawfull residence period, so once you are holding EU passport you should be able to
Rely on te rules that apply ot the Whole Community and that is Why EU Law Comes first and takes over the nationall Immigration Law….
Again this is only my opinion based on the materials studied for the last year or so.
Last edited by popeye on Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JAJ » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:07 am

popeye wrote: Again this is only my opinion based on the materials studied for the last year or so.
I'm sure we shall all be interested to know how you get on should you take this matter to court.

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Post by Marco 72 » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:19 am

JAJ wrote:
Marco 72 wrote:This is interesting: it would appear that the UK is in violation of Directive 2004/38/EC, which should have been transposed to national legislation by 30 April 2006.
The UK implemented the directive on 30 April 2006.
It doesn't look like it. According to the directive, the acquisition of permanent residence for EU citizens after five years is automatic, unless an expulsion has been issued against them. The directive states

Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them. This right of permanent residence is no longer subject to any conditions. The same rule applies to family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who have lived with a Union citizen for five years. The right of permanent residence is lost only in the event of more than two successive years' absence from the host Member State.

(my emphasis). In other words, the UK is acting against the directive by requiring EU citizens to prove they have "exercised Treaty rights" during these five years.

All that happened last April was that the Home Office increased the time required to qualify for ILR from four to five years (which strictly speaking it didn't have to do) but the right of permanent residence is still subject to strict conditions, as you can see from form EEA3 on the Home Office website.

popeye
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Post by popeye » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:03 am

I have my indefinite since this may; I don’t need to battle with anyone.
Also JAJ, there is no need to go to court, there is plenty other institutions that can be addressed first, Ombudsman’s UK, EU, EU Commissions, etc…and look like UK HO is in quite difficult position because all complain could be based on the directive and how HO IN is applying the European Policy not their own.
HO IND does not have a policy any more, they have joined the Club, Agreed with the Directive adopted it and not like some previous directives 2003/109/EC, you don’t need to go to cout to point an administrative issue.
In my opinion EU Bodies should be informed and they are in full position to ask HO why the directive is applied in different manner.
JAJ I am not trying to be clever, if it wasn’t my INDEFINITE, I will probably facing the same issue as many others will face, there is another surprise for HO and ECAA Agreements - right to establishment, in Four different CASES ECJ have ruled the Right of establishment I same as Right of Establishment art 43 Treaty EC, the rulings are not related to employment and are in fact a secondary legislation enforced by ECJ.
I am sure Laurie Fransman QC and Nicola Rogers should be able to answer a lot of questions, they are barristers and direct contact wit pubic is not allowe, but contact can be arranged trough solicitors, so if anyone is affected these are the people who have been dealing with similar cases in the past , just to mention Barkoci and Malik case.

God luck to anyone who is affected,
Last posting

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Post by JAJ » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:20 pm

Marco 72 wrote: (my emphasis). In other words, the UK is acting against the directive by requiring EU citizens to prove they have "exercised Treaty rights" during these five years.
No it isn't. In order to be lawfully in the United Kingdom an EEA citizen must be exercising Treaty Rights.

EEA citizens do not have an unconditional right of establishment in other member states.

popeye
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Post by popeye » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:07 pm

http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/freemovement.pdf
JAJ read it again and stop interpreting...read it again, all my spamming posts ...

The European Court of Justice is likely to strike down any attempts by
member states to discriminate against people from other member states.
The Court has already made a series of rulings breaking down the distinction between workers’ right of free movement and the right of non-economically active people to free movement. The new directive marks a significant further step in this direction.

3) Permanent right of residence after five years – without having to work
• The new directive also specifies that any EU citizen or member of their
family who lives in the UK for more than 5 years has to be granted a right of permanent residence, granting them full rights of UK citizenship and equal
access to welfare benefits.
• This right is not linked to having worked in the UK at all and therefore the right of permanent residence is acquired by virtue of not being expelled within five years. The Government expressed concern about this, telling the European Scrutiny Committee that, “we have concerns that the current wording … would allow EU nationals and their family members to gain permanent residence even if they had not met the conditions of Chapter III
[Right of Residence] for four years by working, studying, or being selfsufficient.”
• The Government promised that, "The UK delegation will push to ensure that the text is changed so that only those EU nationals and family members who met the conditions of Chapter III would be entitled to permanent residence."9 Unfortunately the Government did not succeed in getting these changes made.


Residency and welfare rights in the directive
1. All EU citizens are given an automatic right of residence for up to three
months in another member state with no strings attached, such as the need
for self-sufficiency. (Dir. Art. 6)
2. Once an EU citizen has worked for a year in the host state then he is
entitled to all the social security and other benefits of a home national.
This can only be denied if the host state can show that either he was
voluntarily unemployed or is not looking for work (Dir. Art. 7.3(a) and 24.1.)
3. Once an EU citizen has done any form of employment in the host state,
including a short fixed term contract, then he will be entitled for at least 6
months to the same social security benefits as a home national (Dir. Art.
7.3(b) and 24.)
4. An EU citizen cannot be expelled simply because he is drawing benefit:
“An expulsion measure shall not be the automatic consequence of a Union
citizen's or his or her family member's recourse to the social assistance
system of the host Member state”(Dir. Art. 14.3.)
This undermines the rights of the host state to demand that a non-working
EU citizen must show that they are self-sufficient in order to be able to
reside in the UK (Dir. Art. 8.4).


5. As long as an EU citizen can say that he is genuinely looking for work, they and their family members cannot be expelled (Dir. Art. 14.4.)
6. EU citizens will retain their right to reside in another member state “as long as they do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system”. However, legal experts have queried whether it would ever be
possible for national authorities to prove in Court that the burden imposed
by one claimant or their family was “unreasonable”. This is extremely
significant, as the right to residence is the normal test of eligibility for most
benefits. (Dir. Art. 14.1)
7. After 5 years of legal residence, an EU national is entitled to permanent
residence and has full entitlement to draw benefits as enjoyed by home
nationals (Dir. Art. 16.) As the right to reside is not linked to any status as
a worker but to citizenship, all that is required for 5 years of legal
residence is simply not to have been expelled.


Stop it JAJ and look at it man they are doing a mistake , not the citizens...read what was the purpose of the directive on the first place.
HO don't have a policy anymore, they think they have but this is not the fact anymore, they are simply the ones who should put the policy in practice and not interpret it in the way they like.

Serious this is my last post on this topic, god luck everyone.

popeye
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Post by popeye » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:38 pm

What’s really interesting here is how well aware of the situation British government is, they have tried to change the policy to suit them before, well unfortunately for HO their Exercised treaty rights was the last thing that the Directive Subject was.
So I guess they still apply the policy in the way the think is right - Treaty Rights and Five years Legal Residence trough Treaty Rights.
Cherry Picking Again, We like this one but we don’t like that one...We Are members of the club but we don’t like the cleaning duties.

JAJ, I guess they want that case badly so they can change the directive trough secondary legislation with ECJ ruling, they know exactly what they want.
So Guys don’t be surprised that IND haven’t changed their Application forms or have published guides that are quite different than the directive.
Finally an interesting match up… I hope to see some experienced Barristers on the line…
Like JAJ said we shall see when the opinion mature into a Court case, good luck to everyone.

No more Spamming.

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Post by JAJ » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:14 am

popeye wrote: Like JAJ said we shall see when the opinion mature into a Court case, good luck to everyone.
Well maybe. We shall see.

It is of course an open question as to whether British public opinion will some day demand unilateral abrogation of EU laws on this subject (among others) irrespective of consequences for EU membership.

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