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5 years for ILR rule implemented

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

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Marco 72
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Post by Marco 72 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:08 pm

WP_Holder_05_2002 wrote:Govt says the immigrants should pay extra. We are already paying extra. All of us (including international students for their P/T work) pay social security contribution, but we can't claim benefits. WE ARE ALREADY PAYING EXTRA.
WE FEEL THAT WE HAVE BEEN CHEATED AND A PART OF OUR LIVES IS STOLEN. WE MAY HAVE MOVED AT SOME BETTER COUNTRY IF WE KNEW THAT UK GOVT WILL BEHAVE US LIKE THIS IN THE END.
This happens pretty much everywhere. As far as I know no country in the world (except Israel) grants citizenship to new immigrants the moment they step off the plane...

WP_Holder_05_2002
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Post by WP_Holder_05_2002 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:00 pm

Marco 72 wrote:
This happens pretty much everywhere. As far as I know no country in the world (except Israel) grants citizenship to new immigrants the moment they step off the plane...[/quote]

We are not asking citizenship at the time we step off the plane. We are asking ILR after the 4 years on hard work and payment of tax at huge rate. We are asking whatever was promised 4 years ago.

badhorse
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Post by badhorse » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:55 am

jayj wrote:why are they being so belligerent ?
I thought about this question too "why are they being so belligerent?"

I think the root is at the UK people, mainly the so-called "local UK people" who think they are the true owner of "the land". They are fear of immigration and they vote for parties that appear tough.

In general UK people enjoy a good life but not work as hard as most other peoples. However, most of they don't know their good life is built on 200 years' accumulation by all means (good and bad) of their previous governments. Skilled immigrants work harder than them, and quite often are better educated than them, so most UK people feel they are under threat. Put it frankly, most UK people are not competitive at all. You only need to see how hard our kids study in the school.

So-called "local UK people" cry to let the government protect their job even they are not as good as immigrants. Who cares about UK PLC? If the whole UK economy becomes a job protection scheme, it will be destroied eventually and nobody gets a job. You think this is pretty obvious, but believe it or not, most UK people don't see the point!

There are economists who have long term view, who know that this country needs skilled immigrants, but UK politics is short-term, one election per 4-year. Therefore, to get popular vote, the government needs to ignore what economists say and do short-sighted things to stay in power. It is very simple. It shows that democracy has its limitation too.

This is the tragedy of this people, this country. Time has moved on, but UK is declining. It is trying to close its door. The USA is still going well in terms of economy, but that is thanking to its immigration policy came into effect 10-20 years ago. USA is now tightenting up immigration as well and its effect will show only 10-20 years later.

Unfortunately people tend to link current economic status to current policies and governents are good at manipulating figures to show that their policy is right. In fact, current economic status is due to old policies and the effect of new policies only show 10 years later. Not a lot of UK public think this way. Most UK people think the economy is good now, so they don't need immigrants. I can see after 10 years, when UK's economy is declining, UK people will blame the then government, not knowing it is their decisions now to blame.

The nowaday's world economy is about technology and knowledge. I don't think most UK people want to work hard and study hard to compete with other countries. They are more interested in debating more important things such as moral, religion, freedom, human rights and principles. They forgot that all these must be built on material and they forgot or don't even know the colonial history which enabled this people to enjoy their good life now.

Good life doesn't come free and cheap, someone somewhere needs to actually work hard to prduce the wealth! However, most UK people choose to shut their eyes and think as long they don't see hard working immigrants in this country, they are alright! They probably know they will regret years later, but they don't care. After all, it will be the problem of their children's and grand children's, not theirs? Well, not quite, look at the pension fund crisis, we need to work to 65/70 years old to get our pension now. Who to blame, the government or the business? The People Themselves! That is the price to pay for having a good life but not working hard enough!

So what are the conclusions:

(1) Democracy doesn't help immigrants, but the legal system might. Although politics is short-term and policy makers are short-sighted, judges are not. They must act according to principles and laws. I have one last hope for the British System, and that is the legal system. I think a judicial review can test whether British democracy can solve its contemporary problems.

(2) If the judicial review rules that the govenrment is in the right. Then, I will move to the USA and I call all immigrant professionals to move to USA. Why? Because everybody in USA is immigrants apart from native American Indians. After all, isn't that what UK people want us to do? Just disappear and go away?

PS: sorry for being very critical today. I must say that UK is still a leading country in many fields such as research, environmental protection and human rights etc. But the point is, it is declining, and fast... And it is down to the people... If immigrants don't want to go down with the sinking boat, we need to act to change the situation, or just move.

tobiashomer
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Post by tobiashomer » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:23 pm

Well, since we seem to be in a limbo-time while our last chance to reverse the pernicious 4-to5 ruling plays itself out through Judicial review, I will add my 2 cents' worth to Badhorse's obviously heartfelt and logical lament.

I am an American HSMP who just missed ILR and am severely inconvenienced as I have health issues that just came up and I wanted to retire, but cannot due to HSMP rules applying for a further year and, by all accounts, being more stringently applied than before. so I soldier on working despite health and worries about my family who would be deported if I croak before ILR is finally achieved, assuminig the goal-posts are not moved again, I survive, and we do get it in 2008.

However the very fact that I am here rather than in my native USA makes my point to Badhorse: it is not heaven over there, where every pickup truck has a gun rack and foreigners can be shot for knocking on the door asking directions; ambulances will not go to poor parts of town; and especially, for my money, where the government is in the most incompetent, venal and dangerous hands in my lifetime, almost 60 years. For all its warts, the UK tries to be a "caring society" and the goal of "doing the decent thing" is still there, muffled and behind the scenes.. Sometimes ignored by politicians (even lowly Home Office policy wonks), but understood as part of the reason people do things, whether in government or private life. I am afraid that in the US, "getting rich" is the motto and for those who achieve it and find lasting happiness in it, good for them.

I guess all I would say is, before you give up and leave the UK for America, ask friends from your own country who have already done so, what their experience has been.

badhorse
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Post by badhorse » Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:34 pm

Tobiashomer, thank you for your very pertinent comments. It is useful to hear your opinion.

As you said, for all its warts, UK system is still among the best, that I know. I really hope the UK can continue to be successful. But the current trend is not pointing to that direction, and we are beening victimized.

As to the decision of whether to go or not, it should be based on individual cases. Whereever you go, there is a price to pay, and there is a gain as well. It is different for every person. However, in general, the current UK immigration policy is shifting the balance towards pushing us away... That I know too. However, this detrimental move is being pushed by the government, not the legal system, hence I think we stand A chance of winning through the Judicial Review.

Coming back to the reality. Could VBSI please let us know how to contribute to the Judicial Review?

ssi
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Post by ssi » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:41 pm

Fellow immigrants in the US have similar problems with their Government and Green Cards: http://immigrationvoice.org/
badhorse wrote:Coming back to the reality. Could VBSI please let us know how to contribute to the Judicial Review?
We will issue a detailed statement as soon as we hear about the outcome of the preliminary application to the Hight Court. As of now, I can see two ways to help :
1) Send your written statements of hardship (preferably as affidavits) to HS&F solicitors;
2) Send your donations to an HS&F solicitors' account (more details in the near future).

It appears that in his latest responses,
http://www.vbsi.org.uk/uploads/Docs/Lia ... 061019.pdf ,
http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?mact=N ... eturnid=15 ,
the Immigration Minister admits that the retroactive implementation of the rule change was a mistake, but he also says that the Government simply does not want to foot the bill for correcting this mistake.

t4m52
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Post by t4m52 » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:55 am

To
SSI Comments
"the Immigration Minister admits that the retroactive implementation of the rule change was a mistake, but he also says that the Government simply does not want to foot the bill for correcting this mistake."


Why dont they just simply grant ILR to those who have 4 or more years as normal home office procedure where they charge fees for doing so and what other policy reversal cost they have other than that.

Also does government will now decide to do things if they are cost effective to them or rather do the right thing instead.

Can VBSI or MR Andrew Dismore tell the Minister of Immigration that the HO is already charging for processing the ILR so what more policy reversal cost are for them if they decide to allow people with four years of WP or HSMP time to apply for ILR as normal.

Thanks again to VBSI , Mr Andrew Dismore, CLEE, Stephen Kong, HS&F and all other members contributing their bit for this cause

ssi
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Post by ssi » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:13 am

A preliminary appeal for hardship cases has been published, http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?mact=N ... eturnid=15 , as well as SK's latest letter: http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?page=stephen_kong . Please send your stories.
t4m52 wrote:Can VBSI or MR Andrew Dismore tell the Minister of Immigration that ...
We do not have a direct line to the Immigration Minister. As you have seen, it took three months for him to reply to the July meeting's questions. And he replied not to us directly, but to a Labour MP. We will keep quizzing him via all available channels, the press being an important one.

t4m52
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Post by t4m52 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:20 pm

Image

I have printed with permission an excellent article about campainging /protesting against any government issue and how people will listen to you and you can get your voice heard and get some answers for your questions.
Please Leading people from forum, VBSI , and other people read it and take any extra steps necessary and inform others what they can do to help in this protest.

mdani
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passport withdrawal

Post by mdani » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:19 pm

Hello,

Sorry for barging in current discussion but please can anybody guide me regarding this, I need help urgently.

I have applied for wokpermit extension in Sept and then applied for FLR(IED) in Oct first week, I haven't still got my passport back with new stamp. please can you advice how long should I wait before I withdraw passport? as I have to go to india in second week of Dec.

What is the procedure for withdrawal and how long does it take?

what if I withdraw my passport and the application is withdrawn and my visa has already expired by the time I receive my passport after withdrawal? will I face problems at airport while gong to India. will there be any problem in future work permit application?


Please advice!

Thanks
Mahesh

a11
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Post by a11 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:58 pm

mdani, you should go to workingintheuk.gov.uk, print out the urgent treatment form, explain your situation and fax it to the number shown on the form. you will be fine

mdani
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Post by mdani » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:36 am

My company has already done the urgency treatment request. but still as a plan B I would like know, exactly how many days before I should ask for passport withdrawal, and what will happen when I recieve passport without stamp as my LTR would have expired by that time.

morerightsformigrants
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Post by morerightsformigrants » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:35 pm

for those who think that the 4-5 years retrospective and non transitional time was a one off.. think again. they announced it today and it comes into effect today... after 5:00pm they are improving..... it's even less transitional time this time.
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_11_ ... ounced.htm

abcd1
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Post by abcd1 » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:07 pm

Well, it was expected. And it is good that new criteria will eliminate points for experience (many qualified candidates are refused on this ground which is quite hard to prove).

HOWEVER, the shocking part is that (if I read that link correctly) those who will apply FLR under old HSMP will be judged under new rule! Does it mean that some older rule HSMP candidate may not qualify under new rule and will be asked to leave UK? :shock:

It also shows whatever VBSI or qualified immigrants shout for their right HO :twisted: simply does whatever it wants!

sams
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Post by sams » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:35 pm

Well, as H.O. announced new point system for HSMP initial and extension,
it will be very difficult for a person currently on HSMP aged over 34 to satisfy minimum 75 points for further extension.
When HSMP initial approval was granted, there was no clue for such rules for HSMP extension. People setteled here for last 3-4 years might have to go back, if not been able to satisfy min 75 points for further extension.

The way H.O. new rules are going against migrants, people affected by ILR 4-5 yrs rule change and just waiting for the extra one year to get ILR can further be decieved by H.O. with a future annoucment (expected in March 2007 or before) for new ILR rules (can be again minimum points system).

It can be expected that even after waiting for 5 yrs (4 + 1 extra) to get ILR, lot of people won't be able to satisfy those new points system to get ILR.....
It seems H.O. is only working towards an aim, not to provide any settlement to the hard working tax-payers without even thinking, how it's going to effect their lives...

tobiashomer
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Post by tobiashomer » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:17 pm

where does it say that points for experience are abolished? not on the link provided on the workpermit.com website to which the link leads. Have I missed something? Where is the correct information on the new criteria, if not there?

thanks

nonothing
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Post by nonothing » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:13 pm

the new HSMP criteria is literally the tier 1 criteria of proposed point-based system. that means the tier 1 comes into effect from December 2006, well ahead of their proposed schedule, which is April 2008, and it does affect the current HSMP holders!

Highly Skilled Migrant Programme guidance
http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... idance.doc

jayj
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Post by jayj » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:35 am

The way H.O. new rules are going against migrants, people affected by ILR 4-5 yrs rule change and just waiting for the extra one year to get ILR can further be decieved by H.O. with a future annoucment (expected in March 2007 or before) for new ILR rules (can be again minimum
What is the future announcement in March07? I was lead to believe the points based system is for people applying for WP,HSMP and NOT ILR...

Is this assumption that point system is going to be introduced for ILR?
Why are they messing things up here? If we only knew years back that they were not going to honour their rules, our lives have been wasted here... :cry: :x

jayj
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Post by jayj » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:55 am

I'e just got off the phone with solicitors , the point based system only applies to HSMP. Not for applications to ILR.

What do you guys think? wold they introduce this to ILR?

olisun
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Post by olisun » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:05 am

jayj wrote:I'e just got off the phone with solicitors , the point based system only applies to HSMP. Not for applications to ILR.

What do you guys think? wold they introduce this to ILR?
Who knows. if too many people start applying for ILR they might eventually do that...

jayj
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Post by jayj » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:17 am

Yeah but someone on the forum said that HO are going to announce this
March07. Is this an assumption or paranoia or does this person know something we don't ?

first2last4
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Post by first2last4 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:08 pm

Guys stop getting surprised :)

Save it for Mar 2007, Mar 2008 and on........

This is how UK HO is .... accept it or go back home...
Knowledge which is concealed is lost -Hadith

abcd1
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Post by abcd1 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:38 pm

It seems that HO has actually closed the HSMP scheme.

This is how.

Many people from other countries will qualify under the scheme.
Then they will come to UK.
BUT, when they are required to extend their FLR, unless they can earn high enough in UK, their FLR will be REFUSED! So, there is no gurantee that someone will stay in UK even after qualifying in HSMP. Remember, it is easier to get £7500 pa in India than getting £40000 in UK. Moreover, by that time, applicant's age will increase. So, it will be quite hard to qualify again during extension application.

djbabyboom
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Post by djbabyboom » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:21 pm

People setteled here for last 3-4 years might have to go back, if not been able to satisfy min 75 points for further extension.

Let's not take it for granted. Remember our lifes just had to find resources to "extend one more year" to become ILR eligible. Effectively, owner of already granted FLR is not a HSMP Entry Clearance holder these changes are refering to.

Otherwise this would be a real backhander: not only 5 years instead of 4 promised but also chances of failure to stay this very 5th year.

CAN ANYONE CLARIFY THIS? PLEASE

jayj
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Post by jayj » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:27 pm

So people living here law abiding , contributing , paying taxes etc...suddenly HO gets ridiculed by it's nationals and they suddenly decide to put in rules retrospective...how fair is this? We live here for 4 - 5- 6 years and they decline you because they can put in a rule and take you out without thinking of your contributions , law abiding. They not honouring their part,are they, we've honoured ours...
Their not focusing on the illegal immigrants but trying to get teh skilled migrant out.
This shall now open the doors to illegal staying and whatever as people have contributed here for years and now HO decides to take away these things they promised!!!!!!!!!
Shame on the HO and it' s Govt!

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