Visa required for my UK born/Australian national daughter?

[John G]

When our baby was born, we did the application by post. Too much to do and too little sleep to bother doing it in person. Plus it is cheaper!

See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_174109 under "First child passport"

Hi Guru, many thanks for the link!

Will take up your recommendation and will probably apply in the new year.

Thanks again for all the helpful info!

John

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Remember to travel with the child's birth certificate initially. It can be used to prove, if ever needed, that the child as free movement rights (as child of an Italian) within the EU.

[John G]

Remember to travel with the child's birth certificate initially. It can be used to prove, if ever needed, that the child as free movement rights (as child of an Italian) within the EU.

Thanks, will do that defo!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

John, I have sent you a PM

[mastei76]

John, I'll also try again and apply by post in the new year - let's keep us updated to see how things progresses.

I have been advised to get an immigration lawyer but honestly it makes my mad to just think that I shall waste serious money on something which is as simple as following a step-by-step guide (or at least, that is how it should be!).

[oflondon]

I'm a non eea family member of a European Union citizen ( wife ) and wish to let you know that I got my baby's british passport with ease within 2 weeks of applying. The baby was born in april this year and my eea wife has been exercising treaty rights since her arrival to the U.K in 2005 non-stop and has never claimed any benefits whatsoever before our child's birth. I contacted IPS when i wanted to apply and they told me that my EEA spouse MUST NOT have received any benefits whatsoever before the child's birth OTHERWISE the passport application will be refused.
We submitted all the necessary documents ( WE DID NOT RECEIVE ANY BENEFITS WHATSOEVER BEFORE OUR CHILD'S BIRTH )stated by IPS through telephone conversation, by special delivery and within 2 weeks, we got our baby's passport. FYI

[John G]

If I were you...

I would submit a passport application by post.
Include all the relevant documentation.
Include a clear cover letter saying that you had PR at the time of the birth.
In the cover letter point them at the relevant sections of their guidance.

Make sure you photocopy EVERYTHING before you send it off, and send it by special delivery.

If it is accepted, then you are done.

If it is rejected, then you get all the documents back and can at that point appeal. That can go on in parallel with your trip to Colombia.

Guru, did everything you said above and got the UK passport for her a few weeks back.

Funnily enough, when we got back from Colombia in late January, they hassled me at the border control because my daughter didn't have the EEA thingy on her Australian passport ... after making us wait 15 to 20 min, they eventually let us through stamping her Australian passport for 6 months valid in UK.

I told them "she is getting a UK passport any ways!" I was fuming! I guess they have a job to do.

In any case, as an update to all, she has her UK passport now, so all good.

Anyone reading this, apply via post! Put in good cover letter and send it with all evidence etc (P60's, pay slips, bank statements if needed)

Thanks

John

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Funnily enough, when we got back from Colombia in late January, they hassled me at [UK] border control because my daughter didn't have the EEA thingy on her Australian passport ... after making us wait 15 to 20 min, they eventually let us through stamping her Australian passport for 6 months valid in UK.

I told them "she is getting a UK passport any ways!" I was fuming! I guess they have a job to do.

While I know what it can be like to be travelling with a small child after 12 hours of travelling, I actually find this a really positive story.

Since she is a family member of a Eu citizen, they are 100% required to let her in. And they did. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/ Did the stamp say anything like 1A or does it say that she can work?

They are also required to let her in if she is, as you say, a UK citizen. But proving that at the border might take longer than proving that she is a family member of an EU citizen.

[ca.funke]

Hi John G

...I looked into applying for a UK Passport for her by virtue of me being an Italian national...

I recommend reading >>this<< about the difference between nationality and passport.

I´m pretty sure your daughter is

• Italian (through you / Italian bloodright) AND
• British (being born to an EEA-permanent-resident) AND
• Australian (through you / Australian bloodright).

Furthermore the mother might have also passed an additional citizenship?

I would strongly recommend to establish all nationalities, and apply for all corresponding passports.

[Edit: last paragraph deleted, irrelevant]

[Jambo]

Did the stamp say anything like 1A or does it say that she can work?

The stamp in the passport would not say 1A. This is just the HO internal name (although the actual instrument might be labelled 1A to assist the IO).
Code 1A normally doesn't say you are allowed to work but on the other hand it doesn't say you are not allowed to work (as visitor visa stamp would).

[John G]

Funnily enough, when we got back from Colombia in late January, they hassled me at [UK] border control because my daughter didn't have the EEA thingy on her Australian passport ... after making us wait 15 to 20 min, they eventually let us through stamping her Australian passport for 6 months valid in UK.

I told them "she is getting a UK passport any ways!" I was fuming! I guess they have a job to do.

While I know what it can be like to be travelling with a small child after 12 hours of travelling, I actually find this a really positive story.

Since she is a family member of a Eu citizen, they are 100% required to let her in. And they did. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/ Did the stamp say anything like 1A or does it say that she can work?

They are also required to let her in if she is, as you say, a UK citizen. But proving that at the border might take longer than proving that she is a family member of an EU citizen.

Hi Guru,

Just had a look at my daughters Australian passport and the stamp is in a box. There is no mention of 1A.

It says:

Leave to enter the United Kingdom is hereby given for six months.

Then in a box just below this writing it has the following code:

MEC 21 139

then below all this is a separate date stamp for when we returned in late Jan 2012 from South America.

Not sure what this all means? I assume they just stamped her passport with a short stay code of some sort?

In any case, as I said previously, it's all irrelevant now as she has her UK passport and has right to live/enter/leave as she wishes for the rest of her life!

I did have one quick question though!! Does the fact she has a UK Passport mean she doesn't need a certificate of citizenship for the UK? or do I need to apply for this separately for her?

From my own research I understand that the UK Passport by itself allows her the right of abode in the UK in the future.

Any clarification on this would be very much appreciated.

I do have a slight doubt and the only reason why I do, is that when I applied for her Australian passport by virtue of decent I FIRST had to apply for her Australian Citizenship and ONLY after that, do they issue the Australian passport.

Thanks

John

[John G]

Hi John G

...I looked into applying for a UK Passport for her by virtue of me being an Italian national...

I recommend reading >>this<< about the difference between nationality and passport.

I´m pretty sure your daughter is

• Italian (through you / Italian bloodright) AND
• British (being born to an EEA-permanent-resident) AND
• Australian (through you / Australian bloodright).

Furthermore the mother might have also passed an additional citizenship?

I would strongly recommend to establish all nationalities, and apply for all corresponding passports.

[Edit: last paragraph deleted, irrelevant]

Hi,

Thanks for the link! Very interesting read!

Well she has two passports now. Australian by descent and British by virtue of me exercising my EU treaty rights.

I know I can get her the Italian passport but am not convinced of the benefits of doing so

She has the British passport that will allow her to reside in the UK/Europe (assuming the EU is still around ... which I assume it will be )

and she has the Australian passport (which most people would bite their arm off to get hold of )

She could also get the Colombian passport, as her mother is Colombian, but again, with what benefit? The Colombian passport only creates headaches for everyone I know that has one ... the Colombian would only be useful for some travel within South America and to work in Colombia from what I can see.

Can you please elaborate on why you "would strongly recommend to establish all nationalities, and apply for all corresponding passports.":?:

Thanks again for the link

John

[ca.funke]

Can you please elaborate on why you "would strongly recommend to establish all nationalities, and apply for all corresponding passports.":?:

Hi John,

I´d just make sure that she can prove that she has all these nationalities. I would agree that one EU-passport and the Australian will probably be enough. But you never know what will happen in South America / to the EU at some stage. Maybe she´ll need a Colombian or Italian Passport at some stage.

So I´d try to get all of the possible passports for at least one time, and then keep them as proof. So if your daughter ever needs a fresh one (of any of the four), it´ll be easier to get hold of it.

Obviously this doesn´t change (as per link) that your daughter has (most probably) four nationalities, which is sort-a-cool!

Rgds, Christian

[John G]

Can you please elaborate on why you "would strongly recommend to establish all nationalities, and apply for all corresponding passports.":?:

Hi John,

I´d just make sure that she can prove that she has all these nationalities. I would agree that one EU-passport and the Australian will probably be enough. But you never know what will happen in South America / to the EU at some stage. Maybe she´ll need a Colombian or Italian Passport at some stage.

So I´d try to get all of the possible passports for at least one time, and then keep them as proof. So if your daughter ever needs a fresh one (of any of the four), it´ll be easier to get hold of it.

Obviously this doesn´t change (as per link) that your daughter has (most probably) four nationalities, which is sort-a-cool!

Rgds, Christian

Hi Christian,

ah OK, I see what you mean now.

Cool, well I guess there is no harm in getting her the Italian passport then

I will look into this when I apply for my new Italian passport in a few weeks

Thanks again for all the helpful info and all the best for the future

John

[Jambo]

Any clarification on this would be very much appreciated.

I do have a slight doubt and the only reason why I do, is that when I applied for her Australian passport by virtue of decent I FIRST had to apply for her Australian Citizenship and ONLY after that, do they issue the Australian passport.

Unlike her Australian citizenship, her British citizenship is automatically from birth and doesn't require any application to be made.

If you wish, you can apply for confirmation of her nationality from the HO using form NS but for a UK born child I would not think it is necessary.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Can you please elaborate on why you "would strongly recommend to establish all nationalities, and apply for all corresponding passports.":?:

Hi John,

I´d just make sure that she can prove that she has all these nationalities. I would agree that one EU-passport and the Australian will probably be enough. But you never know what will happen in South America / to the EU at some stage. Maybe she´ll need a Colombian or Italian Passport at some stage.

So I´d try to get all of the possible passports for at least one time, and then keep them as proof. So if your daughter ever needs a fresh one (of any of the four), it´ll be easier to get hold of it.

Obviously this doesn´t change (as per link) that your daughter has (most probably) four nationalities, which is sort-a-cool! :)

Rgds, Christian

Hi Christian,

ah OK, I see what you mean now.

Cool, well I guess there is no harm in getting her the Italian passport then :!: :?: :P

I will look into this when I apply for my new Italian passport in a few weeks :!:

Thanks again for all the helpful info and all the best for the future :!: :!: :D

John

Some implications of lots of passports.
1. Cost more money and need to be renewed.
2. Consulate protection, you may find that you can't get it if arrested in one of the countries you hold citizenship.
3. Military service (may or may not apply depending on sex of person).
4. Tax - some countries expect their nationals to pay tax no matter where they live.
5. Interesting dinner conversations.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Can you please elaborate on why you "would strongly recommend to establish all nationalities, and apply for all corresponding passports.":?:

Hi John,

I´d just make sure that she can prove that she has all these nationalities. I would agree that one EU-passport and the Australian will probably be enough. But you never know what will happen in South America / to the EU at some stage. Maybe she´ll need a Colombian or Italian Passport at some stage.

So I´d try to get all of the possible passports for at least one time, and then keep them as proof. So if your daughter ever needs a fresh one (of any of the four), it´ll be easier to get hold of it.

Obviously this doesn´t change (as per link) that your daughter has (most probably) four nationalities, which is sort-a-cool! :)

Rgds, Christian

Hi Christian,

ah OK, I see what you mean now.

Cool, well I guess there is no harm in getting her the Italian passport then :!: :?: :P

I will look into this when I apply for my new Italian passport in a few weeks :!:

Thanks again for all the helpful info and all the best for the future :!: :!: :D

John

While I agree at an emotional level with ca.funke, for specific countries there can be downsides.

In your case, I would be very hesitant to register the child's Colombian citizenship and then get a passport. It makes visiting Colombia with the child significantly more complicated when both parents do not travel, and there is a serious issue of military service for young men (with combat ongoing over the past 20 or 30 years).

US citizenship, for example, also has a significant problem: taxation on income no matter where you reside. If the child was American and had never ever visited the US, but got a very well paying job in (for example) Spain, they would still have to file US income tax, and likely pay quite a bit.

Some citizenships have distinct penalties associated with them.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Some implications of lots of passports.
1. Cost more money and need to be renewed.
2. Consulate protection, you may find that you can't get it if arrested in one of the countries you hold citizenship.

You do not need to renew most passports. But you have gone through the initial "proof that I am a citizen" for the first one, so subsequent renewals are easier.

Not clear that "Consulate protection" actually buys you much, unless you are arrested in a pretty lawless/corrupt place and your home government gives the local government a lot of financial assistance and your government is willing to get involved.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I did have one quick question though!! Does the fact she has a UK Passport mean she doesn't need a certificate of citizenship for the UK? or do I need to apply for this separately for her?

I am not even sure you could apply for a certificate of citizenship if you wanted to. I have never heard of somebody born in the UK who had citizenship at birth who has one. Mostly it is people who have "Naturalized" or "Registered" to be British citizens who get them.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Some implications of lots of passports.
1. Cost more money and need to be renewed.
2. Consulate protection, you may find that you can't get it if arrested in one of the countries you hold citizenship.

You do not need to renew most passports. But you have gone through the initial "proof that I am a citizen" for the first one, so subsequent renewals are easier.

Not clear that "Consulate protection" actually buys you much, unless you are arrested in a pretty lawless/corrupt place and your home government gives the local government a lot of financial assistance and your government is willing to get involved.

Fair enough, let's hope one never needs it (consulate protection), but this is listed as one of the "problems" people can face when visiting their "home" country, even though they have no real ties there. To be clear, you're one of us, you don't need consular protection (that might just be a visit from someone from the consulate who can call home).

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

US citizenship, for example, also has a significant problem: taxation on income no matter where you reside. If the child was American and had never ever visited the US, but got a very well paying job in (for example) Spain, they would still have to file US income tax, and likely pay quite a bit.


The US was the one I was thinking of. I met a UK chap who'd been born in the US of British / German parents. He lived in Britain all his life. His parents thought it would be a good idea to get him a US passport. He spent a lot of time giving up his US citizenship due to the taxation issue. I don't think it was easy for him.

[ca.funke]

Some implications of lots of passports.
1. Cost more money and need to be renewed.
2. Consulate protection, you may find that you can't get it if arrested in one of the countries you hold citizenship.
3. Military service (may or may not apply depending on gender of person).
4. Tax - some countries expect their nationals to pay tax no matter where they live.
5. Interesting dinner conversations.

1. I´d get each passport once, to be able to apply for new ones later, if necessary. Basically using them as proof of citizenship. I don´t know any country that enforces renewing passports.
2. "Consulate Protection" depends on nationality, not passports. Difference >>here<<. If the girl of this case wants to be eligible for Consulate Protection by "another country" in "one of the countries she holds nationality" she would have to renounce that nationality. Not applying for a passport doesn´t change anything.
3. Military service can be a problem. Not sure about Columbia, but Italy, Australia and UK don´t have military service. And not for girls anyway.
4. Country that asks you to pay tax no matter where you live is the US of A. I don´t know of any other country.
5. Sure might be.

...I would be very hesitant to register the child's Colombian citizenship and then get a passport... It makes visiting Colombia with the child significantly more complicated when both parents do not travel, and there is a serious issue of military service for young men (with combat ongoing over the past 20 or 30 years)...

If Colombian nationality is so undesirable, then it might be better to officially renounce it (if possible)? That would be even safer than "not registering" it. Because if Colombian officials finds out -while in Colombia- that it was tried to conceal Colombian citizenship, this might well end up worse than "just" having it?

[Jambo]

"Consulate Protection" depends on nationality, not passports. Difference >>here<<. If the girl of this case wants to be eligible for Consulate Protection by "another country" in "one of the countries she holds nationality" she would have to renounce that nationality. Not applying for a passport doesn´t change anything.

I guess the argument is that although citizenship and passport are different things, if she doesn't apply for the first passport and claim her nationality, the authorities in that country most likely would never discover that she is "one of them".

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

"Consulate Protection" depends on nationality, not passports. Difference >>here<<. If the girl of this case wants to be eligible for Consulate Protection by "another country" in "one of the countries she holds nationality" she would have to renounce that nationality. Not applying for a passport doesn´t change anything.

I guess the argument is that although citizenship and passport are different things, if she doesn't apply for the first passport and claim her nationality, the authorities in that country most likely would never discover that she is "one of them".

I think the answer is "it depends". Depends on how firmly the citizen insists on talking with people from her embassy, and how convincing she can be.

If somebody has a passport, then there is a pretty clear statement of their citizenship.

And if there is a natural disaster or consular evacuation being done by the British, and I have lost my passport or I have my passport but my child does not, then it is very likely I can talk my way on to the evacuation. Imagine the headlines: "Evacuation refuses to carry British child and parents". (It probably helps that I look pale and pasty white).

[Jambo]

I agree. I believe that when referring to "consular protection", this was less in cases of natural disasters but in cases when a dual national (UK/Columbia for example) is arrested in Columbia. The UK consulate won't be able to help much in this case if you hold a Columbian passport.

My point was that it is likely the Columbian authorities will not know you are Columbian if you never held a Columbian passport before and in that case, the UK consulate could help.