Tories set out immigration plans

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:54 am

Yet more idiotic immigration proposals........when will these people learn?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6130080.stm

samkma · Post by **samkma** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:31 am

Thanks for the update Dawie.
Hope the use their brains not figures.

British · Post by **British** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:13 pm

Well, on second thoughts, I think UK (whichever government) should for once cut down on immigration or maybe Zero net immigration and then see for themselves how hte govt. treasury would suffer without immigrants. Once they have tasted that truth/reality, then automatically the British govt. and people will realise byu first hand experience that Immigrants are very very important for this economy to grow and prosper.

If immigration goes now, the stuff like Border security enhancements costing over £100M will fall upon British tax payers hands to be picked up and many more.

Only practical experience will teach good lessons, so I guess for once the UK govt. should shut down or reduce the immigration count by the annual quotas, etc, and see for themselves that the UK treasury would suffer severly.

I personally don't want this happen, since i am a British citizen and i don't want my country's treasury to suffer because of some stupid decisions by the UK politicians, but i am "sick and tired" of seeing the media/most of the British public and the Politicians pointing fingers at Immigrants (that too on the legal immigrants) saying they are the problem makers and need to be "kept out of the country", inspite of knowing the real fact that there has been a huge capital and asset creation and treasury funding in the UK because of the legal immigrants.

Marco 72 · Post by **Marco 72** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:24 pm

I don't think there is any way in which a government can effectively deal with immigration, even if it is made up of the most efficient and selfless public administrators. Immigrants are factors of production in the economy, and the government simply has no way of knowing what the 'appropriate' number of immigrants should be, just like they can't know the number of tractors, cars or software engineers that will be needed in two or three years' time. This is why socialist economies have never worked: free markets are better planners than politicians.

Obviously a 'zero immigrant' policy is bad, but a full 'open door' policy would be a complete disaster. The 'correct' policy must be somewhere in between, but who chooses the number of immigrants to be admitted, and on what basis? The only practical solution I can see is one which is politically unacceptable. In a nutshell: 1) Every employer would be given complete freedom to hire anyone in the world (e.g. programmers from India or cleaners from Bolivia); 2) Every local community, be it council, town, street, borough, block of flats, etc would be free to select its inhabitants on the basis of nationality, or other factors. That way a market equilibrium would soon be reached. Bolivian cleaners are probably cheaper than local ones, but if you can't accommodate them anywhere near you because local communities don't want them, they will become more expensive, and demand for them will decrease. Of course, this not going to happen, since nowadays equality is considered more important than anything else and any kind of discrimination is viewed as inherently evil. Personally I agree with Karl Popper in thinking that any attempt to enforce equality endangers freedom.

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:39 pm

the stuff like Border security enhancements costing over £100M

Peanuts! Wait till the pension bills grow. (But I agree with you)

Without immigrants most government employees won't get the pensions they now think they're going to get!

olisun · Post by **olisun** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:46 pm

OL7MAX wrote:
the stuff like Border security enhancements costing over £100M
Peanuts! Wait till the pension bills grow. (But I agree with you)

Without immigrants most government employees won't get the pensions they now think they're going to get!

I think nobody cares about pensions these days except a few... People slog their entire life only to find that they either get peanuts or are not eligible due to whatever reason.

Better to invest in properties etc. atleast we will have something after whenever we retire.

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:32 pm

Sure, you have that choice. But for the multitude expecting state pensions - they'll starve unless sufficient immigrants arrive to bolster the ratio of working to retired.

I wouldn't say they "don't care"

, they've paid into the system all their life, it's unlikely they won't care when pay-out time arrives.

And it's not just pensions. The older population will make other demands on state funds, particularly the NHS. And without young, working immigrants the UK simply can't afford it.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:44 pm

It seems as if the UK government wants to have its immigration cake and eat it too! What I mean is they seem to be slowly but surely recrafting immigration laws so that they can benefit from young immigrants but at the same time making it more and more difficult for those young immigrants to become old immigrants by changing the rules regarding settlement. They seem to want young immigrants to come for a few years to work and pay taxes and then go back to their home country before they start asking for too many rights!

We saw it first when they changed the required time for ILR from 4 years to 5 years, and we're seeing it again with the hideous mess that the HSMP is about to become.

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:53 pm

he he. So they'll all come here, gain experience, and take it away? And the UK will have a constant flow of low experience workers? Not a clever long term plan but politicians rarely think beyond the next election.

rg1 · Post by **rg1** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:08 pm

It seems as if the UK government wants to have its immigration cake and eat it too! What I mean is they seem to be slowly but surely recrafting immigration laws so that they can benefit from young immigrants but at the same time making it more and more difficult for those young immigrants to become old immigrants by changing the rules regarding settlement. They seem to want young immigrants to come for a few years to work and pay taxes and then go back to their home country before they start asking for too many rights!

Spot on!
In another thread I said the same thing! Basically govt. wants to exploint young people from developing worlds.

vin123 · Post by **vin123** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:58 pm

Spot on!
In another thread I said the same thing! Basically govt. wants to exploint young people from developing worlds.

Question:

If you are the govt guy holding budget for buying 'cars' from an outside world, don't you prefer to buy & drive young, energetic hi-spec & super performance cars. This of course will sound mean and greedy to some people.....but that's human nature

If you can choose to study/work/migrate and live in a country of your choice, then why blame the govt there if they prefer to choose young people ?

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:20 pm

If you can choose to study/work/migrate and live in a country of your choice, then why blame the govt there if they prefer to choose young people ?

The issue at stake here is not that the government prefers to choose young people. The issue is that they encourage young immigrants to come to Britain, exploit them and then offer them no hope of settlement in this country with the result that they have to go back to their country of their origin.

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:01 am

I bet you they didn't even factor that a percentage of those young people will find partners here and get married. That others who like it here will enter into marriages of convenience or find other ways of staying. And that some will just go AWOL. No, those are inconvenient truths that dilute the message they're hoping to get political mileage out of.

But I love the irony of the exploiters getting exploited.

Give it 10 years and the UK will have very few highly experienced staff (in some sectors) and a lot more economic migrants than the half-wit demographers have predicted. Oh well.

vin123 · Post by **vin123** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:26 pm

The issue is that they encourage young immigrants to come to Britain, exploit them and then offer them no hope of settlement in this country with the result that they have to go back to their country of their origin.

Yes, continuing to provide equal rights for housing benefits and unemployment wages after 5 years for immigrants ..... you call it exploitation.
What Tories are saying they will continue to "exploit" by introducing a capping and by separating asylum from migration.
Its very simple...every other party in UK (of course except BNP ) knows that they wont survive without the votes of immigrants. But there are so many ways of reading and interpreting it for others.
[/quote]

vivekR · Post by **vivekR** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:59 am

Preview
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: exploitation

I hate to say this, but as participants on this forum for immigrants, no one should sound so prejudiced and make it sound like the UK does the migrants a favour.

No one does anyone any favours. We dont do them any favours, We get rewarded well. The Govt are not doing any favours, not so when the country need educated Highly Skilled migrants like us to work in a general population of Vicky Pollards! Having said that, fact remain that in all my exntensive travel and experience of West Europe, the Brits are far ore tolerant and intelligent that the other W.European lot.

The point I guess is that: The Brits came to Countries like ... sau ... India. They invited us here as students and HSMP's. Then once they realise that they cannot match up to the supply and demand equation, they shunt the very same people they invited here!! Do this to one of the Out-sourcing Brit Employees in India, in such mass numbers, and lets see how they react politically.

Its always the way... the law of the Jungle.

I hate to say this, but as participants on this forum for immigrants, no one should sound so prejudiced and make it sound like the UK does the migrants a favour.

No one does anyone any favours. We don’t do them any favours, We get rewarded well. The Govt are not doing any favours, not so when the country need educated Highly Skilled migrants like us to work in a general population of Vicky Pollards! Having said that, fact remain that in all my extensive travel and experience of West Europe, the Brits are far ore tolerant and intelligent that the other W.European lot.

The point I guess is this- The Brits came to countries like ... say ... India. They invited us here as students and HSMP's. We have discussions and debates held on Indian TV where the Brit PM and his other ministers come there to participate in a very warm and willing discussion with Indian students repeatedly. These people then take their word for it and go into the worst of financial commitments to get the HSMP’s, or the student fees. They land here and make it one way or the other, if not all then atleast a given percentage of students do. Then once the Govt realises that this percentage is far too many in numbers and it does not suit their political purposes and that they cannot match up to the supply and demand equation, they shunt the very same people they invited here!!
Now imagine if someone in the developing nation did this to some of the out-sourcing Brit company in India, in such mass numbers displacing the Brit population, and lets see how they react politically.

Its always the way... the law of the Jungle.

vin123 · Post by **vin123** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:34 pm

No one does anyone any favours

As you said, I dont think favours or any form of exploitation prevails in our immigration system especially when its backed by a democratic process. Technically speaking, it happens when people(migrants) subject themselves lawfully or unlawfully to either of the above when situation demands.
Its foolish to blame the govt for not overseeing both, but it makes perfect sense if they are not taking action to reduce it.

vivekR · Post by **vivekR** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:48 am

Vin,

I did not want to point any fingers at anyone, and infact I am not even affected by the new rules, but then you never know. Since you have commented on what I did mention..... here's what I think.

'Your' immigration system is one of the oldest and most outdated, be it democratic one in the world. The system needs a serious overhaul and not this cellotape method of quick fix!! It has haboured the likes of Pinochet in the name of Human Rights! There is loads more such names from the past and there will be loads more in future. It may be democratic, I'll give you that, but it was kept the way it is now to serve the Brit's political purposes. Little did they know it would come and bite them, where they least expected!!

The basis of the whole change is that they need to show a drop in migrant numbers, in the next 2-3 yrs, which works well for elections. Then post elections, the flow will return to something similar in the next 2 yrs or so, because for sure the HSMP flow will not change much. Therefore in short, instead of stemming the inflow of illegal migrants and the likes, they cut the one which was the most important and the most law-abiding one, the HSMP!!

Says a lot about democracy there. Question is not whether it is a democratic process. It surely is, then again democracy being a very relative term based on which side you look at it from. Question is whether it is ethically right?
The Govt comes over to invite some people to settle in the UK (in the HSMP form, an applicant has to sign a statement saying that he promises to make the UK his abode... if I am not wrong?), and then his/ her host decides to pull the ground off his feet to stem a problem, by using them as the short term scapegoat? Why apply it to people who have been living in this false sense of security for the last 3-4 yrs?!!

I say again ... this is like the Law of the Jungle... 'democracy' just happens to be a part of 'your' system to run it!!

Anyone any comments.[/b]

Rog · Post by **Rog** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:59 pm

Vin123, here you are talking about families with children who have immigrated under a commitment from the UK govt to lead to eventual settlement, against Canada and Australia where you are on PR the day you land. (In case of the US H1-B visa they make no promise of eventual settlement and the applicant knows before going that he is entitled to stay only as long he has the employment with the specified firm and does not burn all his bridges back home). My 3 year extension letter clearly states that at the end of three years you can apply for ILR which now being breached. All of the western world needs skilled immigrants and UK is not doing anyone a favour. The Skilled Immigrants have kept their end of the bargain by struggling, working hard, paying taxes/NI without government support, and now the government treats them in an unjust manner. This is not very democratic and before sending off armies to other countries to establish democracies there, they should see how democratic they themselves are. No other western nation treats immigrants in this manner. If you wish to control the number of immigrants you can modify or delete a scheme but cannot arbitrarily throw out people already in the country.

vin123 · Post by **vin123** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:15 pm

vivek & Rog
I'm sorry - I had no idea with HSMP or its rule changes while posting but it certainly seems like there is an issue impacting people from what you both have described.
Generally speaking, from what I see, it is very difficult to arrive at consensus to any proposed changes to immigration policies/rules. So no efforts are made to consult with current or future immigrants. You have all the rights to call it non-democratic but unfortunately, that has been the case eversince -e.g doctor' worpermits rules, new visa regulations & when they made the ILR period to 5 years effective same day ...which I think was really outrageous. The only option is try and work hard and make sure you 'fit the bill' in all compatible ways - easy said than done I know.

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:07 pm

Yes, continuing to provide equal rights for housing benefits and unemployment wages after 5 years for immigrants ..... you call it exploitation

So these "temporary" workers are going to get NI rebates (as they likely won't benefit from N.I)?

What about big income tax refunds for all the demands they are not going to make on the state.... from education of their kids to free bus passes?

Taxing temporary workers at the same rate as permanent residents is fair, you think?

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Tories set out immigration plans

Tories set out immigration plans

exploitation

exploitation