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Irish Marriage Laws

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yankeegirl
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Irish Marriage Laws

Post by yankeegirl » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:00 pm

Hi,

I have been trying to find out the requirements for marrying in Ireland. I have been to the appropriate government sites and it seems a bit confusing. My biggest probelem is the residency requirements for marriage license/certificates are confusing and I can't find what documentation they need to prove the requirements are met. Also, does the Irish government require a Certificate of Approval (or equivalent) for non-nationals marrying, as is required in the UK? I'm American, fiance is Irish.

Thanks :)

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:21 pm

Details of Irish Civil weddings are at: http://www.groireland.ie/getting_married.htm#section2

Most Registry offices in Ireland only offer Marriage by Registrars Certificate, so you can ignore the details about Marriage by Registrars Licence.

If you are not normally resident in the area (i.e. have no household bills in your name there), you will need to supply evidence that you lived in that area for the 7 days preceding your marriage, e.g. Hotel Booking, Letter from houseowner in that area confirming that you both stayed with them for the previous 7 days. Contact the Registrar in the locality you wish to marry in to confirm what proof they will expect. Note that this is a legal obligation and is taken quite seriously by the Registrar.

Certificate of Approval to marry is not required in Ireland. You must both swear an oath that you are not and were not previously married though.

Also read other posts on this board regarding Marriages in Ireland. e.g. http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... +registrar and http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... +registrar

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:29 pm

Thanks for your reply :)

virulo
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Post by virulo » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:17 pm

>>You must both swear an oath that you are not and were not previously married though.

hi!

whan if I am divorced??? Thanks.

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:18 am

Details of Irish Civil weddings are at: http://www.groireland.ie/getting_married.htm#section2

SECTION 3: RE-MARRIAGE OF PREVIOUSLY MARRIED PERSONS AND MARRIAGE OUTSIDE IRELAND:

3.1 - Re-marriage of persons who have been previously married:

If either party has been married previously, it is necessary for that party to produce either a Divorce Decree (Absolute) or a Death Certificate, as appropriate.

If either of the parties to a proposed marriage were previously married this fact should be brought to the attention of the Registrar of Marriages at the time that the written notification to marry is being given by the parties to the proposed marriage.

In the case of a divorce granted by a Court of another State the following procedure applies. If the Divorce Decree is in a foreign language, an English translation of the Divorce should be provided, duly certified by a relevant official body or recognised translation agency. In the case of a foreign divorce, consideration is given to the question of whether the divorce is recognisable under Irish law. In this regard certain information as to place of birth, countries of residence and other relevant facts must be supplied on a questionnaire provided by the Registrar. The information is then forwarded to the General Register Office, whose consent must be obtained before the ceremony can take place.

In the case of a divorce granted by the Irish Court the Court decree in relation to the divorce should be presented to the appropriate Registrar of marriages at the point in time when the written notification of intention to marry is being given by both parties.

It should be noted that a distinction exists between nullity, separation and divorce and the broad distinctions are outlined below:

* if no valid marriage existed in the first instance a decree of nullity may be sought from the Irish Courts - a civil decree of nullity means that the first marriage had no legal effect and the parties concerned are free, in civil law, to marry.
* If a valid marriage is in place and a couple separate (by judicial means or by agreement) re-marriage of the parties concerned is not permitted;
* If the parties to a valid marriage subsequently divorce (and this divorce is recognised by this State) the parties concerned may re-marry in civil law.

The procedures involved in seeking decrees of nullity, separations or divorces are a matter for the appropriate Courts and Registrars of Marriage do not have any function in regard to those procedures. Contact should be made directly with the appropriate Courts Offices.

It should be noted that an annulment granted by the authorities of the Roman Catholic Church does not have any effect in civil law and persons who have obtained a church annulment only are not free to remarry in civil law.

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:14 pm

Thanks for the links. I still have a couple of questions so I'll give you a brief background of my situation.

I'm American, partner is Irish. I came over summer of 2004 on a 90 day Irish visa waiver, was going to stay with a friend in Northern Ireland til partner and I had permanent accommodation in Dublin and apply to stay (either from ROI or back home, whatever was advised.) Got pregnant, partner accepted a job in NI and then we set about looking into UK laws regarding me staying. Went to Citizens advice, by that time I was about a week over my 90 day Irish waiver and had no UK stamps in passport. (No border patrol when enterin NI and I was unaware that I needed to seek it out) Was advised to either go home, amrry or wait til baby waas born, then apply to stay in NI. We had our daughter in 2005 and were told when we went back to Citizens advice, baby didn't give me a claim to stay and the COA requirement meant we couldn't get married in the UK. Then talked to someone at the Law Centre in NI, was told to marry elsewhere and apply for family permit as spouse of EU citizen exercising treaty rights. Ideally we want to marry in the ROI, both for financial reasons and the fact that all of his family resides there, where as if we go back to the US to do it, will be more expensive and I don't have much family.

I talked with someone at the Immigrant Council of Ireland and she said the fact that I don't have a valid visa isn't something that should come up when marrying in the ROI. However, I was reading one of the links and, if I read it correctly, we have to serve notice not onlywhere we intend to marry but also where we live in Northern Ireland. Since I'm here illegally, serving notice in NI i would anticipate would be problematic for me. I just want to know what my best route would be to legalize my status without being separated from my partner and daughter.

Thanks!

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:39 pm

Where did you read that you have to serve notice in your own area? You should serve notice in the area you intend to marry only. After receipt of this notice, you must wait 3 months before you can meet the Registrar to carry out the paperwork and start on to the next stages.

As a US citizen you do not need a visa to enter ROI so you will be legally here when you marry.

Currently by law the Registrar does not have to check your legal status (visa status) for a marriage, but that is in proposed legislation. And any marriage that is officiated without the correct visa (resident visa only, not tourist visa), would be deemed void by the State. I presume they can't work this retroactively, but this legislation is due to come sometime in the near future.

What is your plan after your marriage in ROI? To apply for a EU Treaty rights visa to join your spouse in NI? Where do you plan to apply for this? In ROI? I think at some stage you may have to make the trip back home, or to another country you are legal to be present in to apply for the visa to rejoin your husband.

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:21 pm

Civil marriages are solemnised in the office of a Registrar of Civil Marriages (click here for fees). Persons wishing to have a civil marriage must serve notice upon the Registrar of the district in which they reside. If the parties intending marriage reside in different districts, notice must be served on the Registrar of each district. (N.B. if the marriage is to take place in the Republic of Ireland, one of these districts may be in the United Kingdom). The service of notice requires personal attendance at the Registrars Office and it is a separate procedure from the giving of at least three months written notification as set out at section 1 above.


I came across this in the link you gave me. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. From what I was told at the Law Centre, if I was already married and present in the UK (ie.coming back over the border) I could apply for EEA residence perment from within the UK. Was this incorrect? I recognize that I'm in a bit of a pickle, and don't want to compund it by doing anything else wrong. Yes, it is out intention to get married and then reside in NI.

Thanks again

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:19 am

OK, now I know where you are getting it from. No, you do not have to service notice in NI. The stages for civil marriage in ROI are as follows:
1. Complete Notification of Intent to Marry form and post to Registrar in ROI
2. 3 months later organise a meeting with the Registrar in ROI to serve "Notice of Intent to Marry".
3. Reside in Registrars district for the 7 days preceding your meeting with the Registrar
4. Meet the Registrar and "serve notice" or "complete paperwork"
5. A Minimum of 7 days later you can then marry in the Registrars district.

To Marry by Registrar you must reside in the district of the Registrar, even if it is only for the 7 days preceding the marriage. So that quote which refers to "serve notice in the district in which you reside" is talking about the discrict in the ROI where you will marry.

Does this make it clear?

For example, my husband and I were due to marry in the Dublin Registry office, and submitted my "Notice of Intent to Marry" to them. We later decided to marry in a different area as we couldnt secure a date for months in Dublin, so we asked them to forward our "Notice of Intent to Marry" to another Registrar. We then moved to that locality for the 7 days preceding the Meeting before meeting to to serve "Notice of Intent to Marry".

BTW: Where do you intend to marry in ROI? As a bit of advice, I'd recommend you choose a quieter Registry office than the Dublin one. It can take 6 months to get a meeting with the Registrar, and months after that to secure a date for a wedding! Choose another Registrar from http://www.groireland.ie/registrars.htm

Regarding your second question, I think you should probably put that to the UK boards, I honestly don't know. Surely you would be illegally entering NI again (i.e. no entry visa) if you return after your marriage, so seeking to legalise your entry by applying for a EEA Treaty Permit would be refused? Or do US citizens not need a visa to enter the UK? If so, then yes, perhaps you can simply apply for your EEA Treaty Permit on your arrival there. Best to ask on UK Boards.

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Post by JAJ » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:13 pm

yankeegirl wrote: I came across this in the link you gave me. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. From what I was told at the Law Centre, if I was already married and present in the UK (ie.coming back over the border) I could apply for EEA residence perment from within the UK. Was this incorrect? I recognize that I'm in a bit of a pickle, and don't want to compund it by doing anything else wrong. Yes, it is out intention to get married and then reside in NI.
Do you realise that if you get an EEA permit, it will take you five years to get UK permanent resident status (necessary for obtaining British citizenship).

While if you obtain a spouse visa under standard UK rules, it will take only two years.

Concerning your child, where and when was your child born?

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:54 pm

Thanks for all the info. We're planning on getting married in Donegal. Easy to meet the requirement as we are in Derry and can stay in Donegal and my partner can just commute to work for the 7 days or however long. We aren't going for the UK visa for a couple of reasons. First, my overstay would be a bigger issue, and more likely to be refused. Second, residing in Ireland (north or south) with Irish spouse will make me eligible for Irish citizenship after I think 5 years and would be easier if I just obtained Irish citizenship as both partner and daughter are Irish citizens. My daughter was born April 2005 in Northern Ireland.

Thanks...you guys are amazing!

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:35 pm

Regarding Naturalisation as an Irish citizen, you only need to be married and residing in Ireland for 3, not 5 years. read Gov website http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/ ... riage.html
To claim citizenship by marriage, you must meet the following conditions:

* You must be married to the Irish citizen for at least 3 years
* You must have had a period of one year's continuous "reckonable residence" in the island of Ireland immediately before the date of your application
* You must have been living on the island of Ireland for at least 2 of the 4 years before that year of continuous residence
* Your marriage must be recognised as valid under Irish law
* You and your spouse must be living together as husband and wife
* You must be of good character and intend to continue to live on the island of Ireland
* You must have made a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State.

Certain periods of residence do not count for the purpose of reckonable residence, for example, periods when you did not have permission to remain in Ireland, or you were here on a student visa, or you were seeking asylum.
If you read many posts on the UK forum, you'll see that many people found it a simple enough (once they had craploads of documentation) process to get their spouse visa application accepted for the UK (despite overstaying and working illegally), once they returned home and applied to return to the UK. Doing this would give you the option of applying for ILR in the UK after 2 years. This would give you another option of a long-term visa/citizenship route to take. But if you know for sure that you want to remain living in Ireland for the next 3 years, and would prefer to naturalise as an Irish rather than a British citizen, then why not go that route!

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Post by JAJ » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:39 am

yankeegirl wrote: Second, residing in Ireland (north or south) with Irish spouse will make me eligible for Irish citizenship after I think 5 years
As scrudu said, you can apply after 3 years (although clock only starts ticking when you get married and they won't count unlawful residence in NI). However bear in mind that processing times are long. 2-3 years to process a naturalisation application and with the huge increase in the pool of eligible persons in the Republic of Ireland, that's not likely to improve anytime soon.

Equivalent processing times for British naturalisation are 4-6 months.

The other possible complication with Irish naturalisation is that the "discretionary" aspect is much less well understood compared to the case in the United Kingdom. British naturalisation is technically discretionary but cannot be refused on the whim of a minister or public servant - there are established policies which must be respected in taking decisions.

There is of course no reason why you could not seek both citizenships, as the law does allow this.
and would be easier if I just obtained Irish citizenship as both partner and daughter are Irish citizens.
Also bear in mind that if you choose to live in the United Kingdom as an Irish citizen but not a British citizen, you're a very welcome guest - but that's about it. It's not your country, basically.

How long has your future husband lived in the United Kingdom? After 5 years he is eligible to apply for naturalisation as a British citizen if he wishes. After then you would be able to access the shorter waiting period for the spouse of a British citizen. However you would still need to have UK permanent resident status.
My daughter was born April 2005 in Northern Ireland.
You need to know that children born in the United Kingdom to resident Irish citizens are normally automatic British citizens (at birth). However, as she was born before 1 July 2006 and you are not legally married, she probably did not acquire British citizenship at birth based on her father's status.

That said, once you get married, she should immediately acquire British citizenship on that basis. I would not expect front-line UK Passport Office officials to necessarily understand the law in a case like this, so you should (after you get married) write to the Home Office Immigration & Nationality Directorate in Liverpool and ask for a letter confirming her British citizenship by virtue of sections 1(1)(b) and 47 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

In fact, if her father's "domicile" was still in the Republic of Ireland when she was born, and if Irish law has abolished the concept of illegitimacy (as opposed to just its consequences), then she may be British already. However if you're planning to get married anyway, just write to the Home Office IND afterwards and see what they say.

Have you obtained confirmation of her US citizenship and obtained a Consular Report of Birth Abroad together with a US passport for her?

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:24 am

Thanks for the additional info. My partner has been in NI since Oct. 2004 and was residing in NI when she was born. I only recently found out how to go about reporting her birth to the consulate and getting her an American passport and have started that process. With regards to British/Irish citizenship, we had decided just to have her be a Irish/American dual citizen as we were told when we went to register her birth here in NI that she wouldn't be British because neiter of us had permanent residency. (Apparently though as I understand it, Irish citizens are considered "settled" pretty much as soon as they move to the UK) To be honest, I guess I just didn't see the point in her having two EU passports. It's really important to me for her to be an American citizen and I have never heard of someone being eligible for 3. Argh, this get sooooo confusing lol.[/quote]

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Post by JAJ » Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:39 am

yankeegirl wrote:With regards to British/Irish citizenship, we had decided just to have her be a Irish/American dual citizen as we were told when we went to register her birth here in NI that she wouldn't be British because neiter of us had permanent residency. (Apparently though as I understand it, Irish citizens are considered "settled" pretty much as soon as they move to the UK)
You were "told" wrong and your understanding is correct.

Your daughter however doesn't acquire British citizenship until you get married. Once you do get married it's an automatic process in law that confers British citizenship on her and is not nullified by the opinions of badly informed public servants.

Don't accept the opinion of any public servant other than the Home Office Immigration and Nationality Directorate on this subject. And only then in writing with reference to the British Nationality Act 1981 and Immigration Act 1971 (in other words, the people answering the phone at the Home Office might not know the law either)
To be honest, I guess I just didn't see the point in her having two EU passports. It's really important to me for her to be an American citizen and I have never heard of someone being eligible for 3.
EU member states are still different countries and it is not unknown for an EU member state citizen living in another country to find their rights restricted in some way unless they take out local citizenship.

For example, Irish citizens cannot hold policy or managerial level Civil Service jobs in the United Kingdom unless they also hold British citizenship.

Triple citizenship is not unknown and is quite legal where countries allow multiple citizenship. In fact the combination of British/Irish/US is one of the more common scenarios found.

If your partner wishes to become a British citizen he will be eligible for naturalisation in October 2009.

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Post by JAJ » Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:59 am

yankeegirl wrote: as we were told when we went to register her birth here in NI that she wouldn't be British because neiter of us had permanent residency. (Apparently though as I understand it, Irish citizens are considered "settled" pretty much as soon as they move to the UK)
This Home Office document may help. Start at section 8.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/docume ... iew=Binary (pdf)

It explains how citizens of EU/EEA states have been considered to be "permanent residents" of the UK:

- before 2 October 2000 : automatically
- from 2 October 2000 to 29 April 2006 : not unless an application for permanent residence is made; and
- from 30 April 2006 : automatically after 5 years

But the really important point from the point of view of your daughter's status is that Irish citizens get automatic permanent residence because of older arrangements that go beyond EEA rights. From section 5.3:

"Citizens of the Irish Republic, whether exercising EEA free movement rights or not, are not normally subject to any form of immigration control on arrival in the UK because of the Republic’s inclusion in the Common Travel Area (s.1(3), Immigration Act 1971)"

and then in section 8.5 discussing the consequences for entitlement to British citizenship:

"The 2006 Regulations do not affect the position of EEA nationals entitled to remain indefinitely on some other basis, for example because they have been granted indefinite leave to remain under the Immigration Rules, are entitled by virtue of diplomatic status to exemption from UK immigration control or because, as Irish nationals, they benefit under the Common Travel Area provisions. Persons in these categories should continue to be regarded as free from any restriction under the immigration laws on the period for which they may remain."

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Post by Wisco » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:06 am

[quote="JAJAs scrudu said, you can apply after 3 years (although clock only starts ticking when you get married and they won't count unlawful residence in NI). [/quote]

Actually it starts ticking when you get your GNIB registration sorted. So if you get married tomorrow but don't register with GNIB until December 5 (for example), your reckonable residence starts December 5. You then have to wait 3 years, then you can send in your citizenship application, so long as you remain resident in the Republic for that time.

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