CSI Insurance for EEA2 or EEA4 application

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:01 pm

Hello,

I know this topic has been discussed few times already, but I am still a bit confused, I am Canadian married to Austrian citizen since 2006, we came to the UK in April 2007 and was granted my residency permit which should expire in August 2012. I am preparing to apply for the EEA4 as I have now finished 5 continuous years of residency and want to get my PR. They are asking for comprehensive insurance which seem to have been added after I applied through the EEA2 in 2007. My wife did not work throughout the 5 years as she is looking after the children. I have however worked since coming here ( different jobs). Do I need to have CSI for all the 5 years we stayed here for her now? or is it enough if I get one for the now with her and also have my name on the policy?

Thanks for your help

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:04 pm

Yes, you can be required to have CSI if you your wife was self-sufficient under the terms of the directive.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:59 pm

What you did during the 5 year period is not considered in a PR decision. It all revolves around the EU citizen.

What exactly was your wife's relationship to her job in this period? Was she technically employed but on maternity leave? Was she self-employed but not actively working for clients?

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:57 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:What you did during the 5 year period is not considered in a PR decision. It all revolves around the EU citizen.

What exactly was your wife's relationship to her job in this period? Was she technically employed but on maternity leave? Was she self-employed but not actively working for clients?

Thanks for your response. she was not employed at all and she was not registered in any job centre to look for a job (She is a medical doctor) and we were not looking for a job for her as my job is covering all our needs. She was working when we were in Canada but not since we moved to UK as she was since then looking after the kids.
Do I still need to get insurance for the whole 5 years period we spent in UK, which is impossible I guess to have as retrospective insurance.
Thanks for the help

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:39 pm

You are in an interesting position, and I urge you to apply for the PR in any case.

According to the rules that UKBA uses, they require CSI when the EU citizen is not working. http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/e ... ent_evalua lays out their handling of women who stop working to become parents.

I think you will be turned down on the PR application, but I think you might win on appeal. I think you can argue it is discriminatory to women that when they stop working to take care of their new children, that their husband's are punished and loose their PR.

I would be happy to help you in your applications, on a very non professional basis.

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:39 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:You are in an interesting position, and I urge you to apply for the PR in any case.

According to the rules that UKBA uses, they require CSI when the EU citizen is not working. http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/e ... ent_evalua lays out their handling of women who stop working to become parents.

I think you will be turned down on the PR application, but I think you might win on appeal. I think you can argue it is discriminatory to women that when they stop working to take care of their new children, that their husband's are punished and loose their PR.

I would be happy to help you in your applications, on a very non professional basis.

Thanks again for your prompt response. I would be surprised if I was turned down, the whole shenanigan of having insurance did not exist at all when I applied the first time around for the Permit, otherwise, how am I supposed to know.. just keep reading the UKBA website just because I have nothing else to do in my life!

I am thinking of doing the EEA2 for extension for another 5 years for permanent residence now and then when I finished 6 years ( 1 year from now) I will apply for citizenship
Any thoughts?--

I also forgot to say that We have 3 kids ( 2 of them born in UK) not sure if I need insurance for them as well or will this not bee needed. I am not including them in my application as they are all EU citizens (Austrians)

Post by **Jambo** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:03 pm

UKnow wrote:I would be surprised if I was turned down, the whole shenanigan of having insurance did not exist at all when I applied the first time around for the Permit, otherwise, how am I supposed to know

The requirement for CSI has been in the regulations since 2006 although I don't know if the UKBA enforced that in 2007.

On what basis did you apply for a Residence Card in 2007? What evidence of exercising treaty rights did you produce?

I am thinking of doing the EEA2 for extension for another 5 years for permanent residence now and then when I finished 6 years ( 1 year from now) I will apply for citizenship

The nationality team is likely to have the same view as the European cases team and will require CSI. The difference is that EEA3 application is free and naturalisation costs £850. Better to find out where you stand now when it's free.

I also forgot to say that We have 3 kids ( 2 of them born in UK) not sure if I need insurance for them as well or will this not bee needed. I am not including them in my application as they are all EU citizens (Austrians)

I would skip CSI for the children. Having PR for them has no real meaning.

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:09 pm

Jambo wrote:
UKnow wrote:I would be surprised if I was turned down, the whole shenanigan of having insurance did not exist at all when I applied the first time around for the Permit, otherwise, how am I supposed to know

The requirement for CSI has been in the regulations since 2006 although I don't know if the UKBA enforced that in 2007.

On what basis did you apply for a Residence Card in 2007? What evidence of exercising treaty rights did you produce?

I do not really recall too much but from what I recall I just claimed based on being married to an EU citizen and provided the income and contracts at that point, I do not to be honest recall anything about specific status. Do you know if they changed the applications since 2007?
--

[]

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:49 pm

As you received an residence card, you might get away with the requirement for CSI, though you would have been required to have it to qualify. Why? If they'd rejected your application at the time, you could have rectified it. You can't do so retrospectively (ie you can't buy insurance for the past).

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:59 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:As you received an residence card, you might get away with the requirement for CSI, though you would have been required to have it to qualify. Why? If they'd rejected your application at the time, you could have rectified it. You can't do so retrospectively (ie you can't buy insurance for the past).

Thank you, I guess I will go for the application and get insurance for both of us for now and see what they come back with...

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:18 pm

Did you happen to keep a copy of your original application? It may come in handy. If not, apparently, you can ask UKBA for your file (can't find the link just now).

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:21 pm

The attached explains the requirements for CSI at the end of the document (Annex A)

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:36 pm

Hello.. I managed to find an old application version from 2008, I believe what I had listed then was she is employed as then they allowed for me to put my details as the employed one in section 4 P8 and under section 9 of the link below. This is why they did not then ask for any insurance as I was employed which meant she was then.. This is now puzzling me and I am thinking should I then put the status as employed instead of self sufficient?

http://www.giolegal.co.uk/Docs/Immigrat ... 9/eea2.pdf

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:47 pm

UKnow wrote:Hello.. I managed to find an old application version from 2008, I believe what I had listed then was she is employed as then they allowed for me to put my details as the employed one in section 4 P8 and under section 9 of the link below. This is why they did not then ask for any insurance as I was employed which meant she was then.. This is now puzzling me and I am thinking should I then put the status as employed instead of self sufficient?

http://www.giolegal.co.uk/Docs/Immigrat ... 9/eea2.pdf

I have to say I'm pretty confused now. Was your wife employed at time of application? If yes, then you applied under a different basis.

If as I suspect, it was no she was not working and you put your employment details in that would have been a mistake on your part.

If you look at section 7 of your form, it describes the self-sufficient person. The UKBA would most likely consider your wife to be self-sufficient and that would be your basis to reside.

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:02 pm

I have to say I'm pretty confused now. Was your wife employed at time of application? If yes, then you applied under a different basis.

No she was not, but the application at section 4 asked for me to put my details instead of hers if I was supporting her which I was at the time ( and still am).
" S E C T I ON 4 - Y O U R E E A O R SWI S S N A T I O N A L F AMI L Y MEMB E R ( EMP L O YME N T )

You must complete this section if your EEA or Swiss national family member is a worker i. e a person pursuing an effective and genuine
activity for remuneration as an employed person. If you are supporting them through working, you must complete this section
with your details."

By putting that part as employee which they asked for, I did not have to fill her details under self sufficient and it was approved then. This is why she was classified under employed I guess ( the application is the confusing part I guess then and now as well)

I will phone them tomorrow to confirm as this is very confusing

I just found the two versions from 2006 and 2007 ( links below) same as the 2008

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... vNhhP_7e_w

http://www.daniellecohenimmigration.com ... DFinal.pdf

Post by **Jambo** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:42 pm

The old form doesn't seem to be well structured for self-sufficient cases.

I believe what the HO would have expected you to do in your case is to fill in your details in section 4 (employment) and to tick "self -sufficient" in section 7. Your employment details from section 4 would support the self-sufficient claim.

I don't think the HO classified your wife as a worker. It is more likely they saw the worker evidence you provided and classified her as self-sufficient even though you did not tick the relevant box in section 7.

It's very good that you found the 2006 & 2007 version as there is a big difference in the section 7 (self-sufficient) wordings. CSI is only mentioned in the 2008 version so if you applied in 2007 even as self-sufficient, CSI was not required by the form and I believe you have a case here to claim for exemption.

The HO is already exempting students from CSI if they applied as student in the past because the HO did not require CSI from student before. I believe the same logic should apply if you applied as self-sufficient before 2008.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:12 am

Jambo,

EEA citizens can shift from category to category at time progresses. She started off working, then at some point she had children and decided to take time with them. At some point in the future she may decide to start working again.

At the time of the original RC application, she was evidently working.

She would have still been required to have CSI (at least according to UKBA) at any time after the application that she was not working.

UKNow,

Do you need proof of your ability to work? If so apply now for a new RC, though state on the application that you believe you qualify already for PR and this is just an convenience application for the RC.

Post by **Jambo** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:59 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Jambo,

EEA citizens can shift from category to category at time progresses. She started off working, then at some point she had children and decided to take time with them. At some point in the future she may decide to start working again.

At the time of the original RC application, she was evidently working.

She would have still been required to have CSI (at least according to UKBA) at any time after the application that she was not working.

The OP stated in his first post that

we came to the UK in April 2007 ... My wife did not work throughout the 5 years as she is looking after the children

.

and a few posts above this one

Was your wife employed at time of application? No she wasn't

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:28 pm

UKnow wrote:I have to say I'm pretty confused now. Was your wife employed at time of application? If yes, then you applied under a different basis.

No she was not, but the application at section 4 asked for me to put my details instead of hers if I was supporting her which I was at the time ( and still am).
" S E C T I ON 4 - Y O U R E E A O R SWI S S N A T I O N A L F AMI L Y MEMB E R ( EMP L O YME N T )

You must complete this section if your EEA or Swiss national family member is a worker i. e a person pursuing an effective and genuine
activity for remuneration as an employed person. If you are supporting them through working, you must complete this section
with your details."

By putting that part as employee which they asked for, I did not have to fill her details under self sufficient and it was approved then. This is why she was classified under employed I guess ( the application is the confusing part I guess then and now as well)

I will phone them tomorrow to confirm as this is very confusing

I just found the two versions from 2006 and 2007 ( links below) same as the 2008

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... vNhhP_7e_w

http://www.daniellecohenimmigration.com ... DFinal.pdf

I understand what you mean now. You filled the form in as instructed in good faith. I think you have a very good case for PR. If they'd rejected your application on the basis of CSI, you could have remedied that by obtaining it at the time. You can't now that you did not have it. I hope you understand what I mean by this.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:31 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Jambo,

EEA citizens can shift from category to category at time progresses. She started off working, then at some point she had children and decided to take time with them. At some point in the future she may decide to start working again.

At the time of the original RC application, she was evidently working.

She would have still been required to have CSI (at least according to UKBA) at any time after the application that she was not working.

UKNow,

Do you need proof of your ability to work? If so apply now for a new RC, though state on the application that you believe you qualify already for PR and this is just an convenience application for the RC.

Agree that people's circumstances can change in general and they would be expected to comply with the new conditions (if any); the OP applied in good faith on one basis (even though they did not appear to strictly meet the conditions) and had application accepted. I think he stands a good chance of obtaining PR card.

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:02 pm

Thank you all for your advice, just to confirm, my wife was not working when we came to the UK and she did not work throughout the 5 years April 2007 to April 2012. I can not be 100% that I did not check the self sufficient as I did not unfortunately keep copies of the application. However, I am pretty sure I did not need insurance at all at that point as the application did not require any. I think I will apply to the PR and write a cover letter explaining the situation and hopefully can get it approved,if it is not approved, I will then either appeal or do another RC as advised before.

UKnow · Post by **UKnow** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:05 pm

UKNow,

Do you need proof of your ability to work? If so apply now for a new RC, though state on the application that you believe you qualify already for PR and this is just an convenience application for the RC.[/quote]

I do need a prove for work for my company and as my RC expires in August 2012, I will need to get nee document to prove my rights to work in the UK

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:09 pm

As you already know, you can qualify for a new residence card on the same basis as before if you have CSI.

You may qualify for PR, if you can convince the UKBA that you applied in good faith and no CSI was requested by them.

Either way, you can continue to work in the UK.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:22 am

If I were you...

I would want clarity primarily on my ability to work. And I would want it closed and clear as soon as possible. That says to me to apply for a new RC with the caveate wording that I mentioned earlier.

In the meantime I would appeal the existing rejection of the PR. I do not think there is any point in applying again for PR - I think you will again get rejected so might as well just appeal the current rejection.

In the case of ALL applications, keep photocopies of EVERYTHING you send.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:24 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:If I were you...

I would want clarity primarily on my ability to work. And I would want it closed and clear as soon as possible. That says to me to apply for a new RC with the caveate wording that I mentioned earlier.

In the meantime I would appeal the existing rejection of the PR. I do not think there is any point in applying again for PR - I think you will again get rejected so might as well just appeal the current rejection.

In the case of ALL applications, keep photocopies of EVERYTHING you send.

I don't thing the OP has made any application yet (and therefore has not had a rejection).

I think what you are saying about protecting job is a good point. Getting CSI now or his wife working would quickly close the gap so to speak.

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CSI Insurance for EEA2 or EEA4 application