Dependent family members of Non-EU National

[Premo]

Hi all,

I'm in need of some information about the following. I hope that someone could help me.


I am a french national living and working in the UK. I am married and my wife has an EEA2 family permit. She has a younger sister of (just turned) 17 yrs old living with her mom in St. Vincent (Caribbean island). Nationals of St. Vincent don’t need a visa to come to the UK and are usually allowed a 6 months visa when visiting.

My wife wants to give her sister a overseas experience as a sort of help (she comes from a poor background) and possibly try to get her a better education over here as well. I’m planning to go to St. Vincent soon on a holiday with my wife and we will come back to the UK together with her 17 yrs old sister.

My question is if it would be possible that I apply for an EEA2 permit for my wife’s sister? If so, what are the chances that she will get it and for what does she needs to qualify?

Premo

[Premo]

I found this on the HO website:

'Other relatives - including extended family members such as brothers, sisters and cousins - do not have an automatic right to live in the UK. To be considered, they must be able to show that they are dependent on you'

What do I need to show that my wife's sister as an extended family member, is dependent on me?

[Premo]

Anyone?

Help is must appreciated.

What would an extended dependent family member need to show in order to qualify for a permit?

[Jambo]

I suggest you read - http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ficiaries/

Dependant usually means financially but not necessary.

[Lucapooka]

From the limited information you have given, it's highly likely that this person does not qualify for an EEA permit. You can easily determine this for yourself by making an application. It's free and generally very quick (compared to UK applications). Good luck.

[Premo]

Hi Jambo,

Thanks for you reply. I read the article, really helpfull but:

‘’They key thing for people in this category is proving the family relationship to the EU citizen. Once that is done, the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC have effect, irrespective of how the national government views the relationship’’

The family relationship is something I (and my wife) can easily prove but,

from my personal experience it’s even hard to get someone in the UK, who doesn’t need a visa to come up, for a maximum of 6 months. As a national from st. Vincent you can’t book a single or open return ticket and when you come to the UK (with a return ticket) the IO won’t give you a visa for 6 months (while u have that right) but 9 out 10 times gives you only the amount of weeks indicated on your ticket!! On top of that they won’t en they refuse to give you a reason!

Now, if my wife’s sister enters the UK and she would get for example a 6 to 8 weeks stay instead of the 6 months they should give in normal situations, how can we change her situation if we decided to? Apply for a RC or perhaps another visa?

[Jambo]

Wouldn't booking a return ticket for 6 months solve the problem?

What the purpose of her travel to the UK? Visit or settlement? As already said, it doesn't seem that the sister is dependent on the EEA national and would not qualify under the EEA regulations.

[Premo]

that seems logic and a 6 months return ticket is bookable. Never thought about it to be honest.

About being dependent, she is under age so either way i would be financially responsible for her? You say ''it doesn't seem that the sister is dependent on the EEA national and would not qualify under the EEA regulations''

What do you mean by it doesn't seem? It's only about being able to support her financially isn't it? Or am i wrong?

[Lucapooka]

It's only about being able to support her financially isn't it? Or am i wrong?

It's about her having been dependant on you rather than you being able to support her in the future.

[Premo]

Well, that will be harder to prove. The only thing my wife does is sending money sometimes to her mom in order to support her.

Surely, there must be situations where EU nationals want to bring op their extended family members, with a lack of proof that shows the family was dependant before coming up, but where they manage to succesfully obtain a family permit?

What else can I do when there is not sufficient proof? Can HO by law refuse the permit only just because I can't show that she was depending on me before coming up?

'The host Member State shall undertake an extensive examination of the personal circumstances and shall justify any denial of entry or residence to these people'

[Jambo]

It is not a question of having sufficient evidence or not.

You need to meet the requirements in the regulations to apply under the EEA regulations. It is true that it is difficult to provide sufficient evidence if you don't meet the requirements.

She can still enter as a tourist if her intentions are just to visit you for a few months.

[Premo]

but isn't applying for a family permit for an extended family member, who normally does not need a visa to come to the UK and is still under age, part of MY treaty rights?

From the HO website:

''where refusing the family member would not deter the EEA national from exercising his / her Treaty rights or would not create an effective obstacle to the exercise of Treaty rights''

[Jambo]

True but this brings us back to my original post in this thread - Who is considered extended family member. In your case, it doesn't seem she meets the definition as she is not financially dependent on the EEA national or reside in the same household before.

[Premo]

Ok I understand your point now.

However, we are talking about the treaty rights of an EU citizen. It’s a really grey area. Is the UK allowed to make up their own definitions regarding being financially dependent? Where on the internet can I find the specific financial definitions that the UKBA is talking about and where can I find proof that these definitions are backed up by law and not in conflict with my treaty rights?

Surely, it can not just be up to an IO who happens to be in a bad mood and just rejects the application because he’s not satisfied enough! What are your views on this?

[Jambo]

2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following persons:

(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the
Union citizen;

And the UK relevant legislation - The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 - Regulation 8. You can also read the HO guidance on EEA Family Permit (see page 11).

[Premo]

Thanks for this. Below mentioned points ‘c’ and ‘6’ are applicable to my wife’s sister and should be no problem to prove.

(c) the person satisfied the condition in paragraph (a), has joined the EEA national in the United Kingdom and continues to be dependent upon him or to be a member of his household.

(6) In these Regulations “relevant EEA national” means, in relation to an extended family member, the EEA national who is or whose spouse or civil partner is the relative of the extended family member for the purpose of paragraph (2), (3) or (4) or the EEA national who is the partner of the extended family member for the purpose of paragraph (5).


As I mentioned before, the real issue here to me is if I can provide for her financially.

1. I could give some proof that my wife is sending money over for support to her mother
2. As she will be still under age when arriving in the UK. Does that not make me (and my wife) automatically the sponsors anyway?
3. I will be able to give proof that we can support her (through bank statements/salary slips/rental agreement/work contract/valid ID’s/NI number proof and utility bills) and provide accommodation. She will be living with us.


European Economic Directive 2004/38/EC

‘You have applied for a European Economic Area family permit for admission to the UK as the family of an EEA national. To qualify, you must show that financially dependent on your EEA national family.

What are my chances now do you think?

[Premo]

Ok: the only problem what I will have is that i can't provide enough evidence that my wife's sister was depending on me before coming to the UK.

Me and my wife have been sending money and still do the sister's mom in order to help out financially. We can't send it on the sister's name because she's under age, only on the mom's name. I can provide the receipts for the moneny sent over. Will that be enough? Or could you give advice on what might help the application?

What is HO's definition of helping out financially?

[Premo]

Hi there,

I spoke to a sollicitor for a short 1st consultation. I explaind him below situation and he agrees with me and definetely sees potential in this case. More proof would certainly help. But what more proof can I give?? Do you guys think i should go with a sollicitor in this case or can i do it by myself?

1. I could give some proof that my wife is sending money over for support to her mother
2. As she will be still under age when arriving in the UK. Does that not make me (and my wife) automatically the sponsors anyway?
3. I will be able to give proof that we can support her (through bank statements/salary slips/rental agreement/work contract/valid ID’s/NI number proof and utility bills) and provide accommodation. She will be living with us.

[Jambo]

definetely sees potential in this case.

Probably potential income for himself.

1. Just sending money is not enough. They need to be dependant on you (or your wife).

2. It will make you her sponsor while she is in the UK but this has nothing to do with the EEA Family Permit requirements. It will be relevant if she applies for a visitor visa.

3. See (2).

[Greenie]

'Seeing potential' is not the same as believing that your sister in law qualifies for a family permit, which, on the basis of the information you have given, she doesn't.

See also 5.1.2 dependency

the fact that you are still talking about the fact that by bringing her to the UK when she is under 18 makes you 'automatically her sponsors' and that you have enough resources to support her suggests that you still haven't read and understood the available information.

It is clear from your first post that your wife wants to bring your sister here to have a 'better life' this isn't what the EEA regulations are about. They are about allowing freedom of movement of EEA nationals within the UK, and freedom of movement of their family members and dependent extended family members. Sending her some money doesn't show she is dependent on you for her essential living needs, and doesn't show that she was dependent on you/your wife immediately before your move to the UK.

[Premo]

Hi Greenie,

It's been a while as a was away on holiday but I just read your reply again.

Thanks for that. I understand your explanation about the reasons for the EEA regulations. However, in all due respect I don't agree with you.

I'm law abiding and I intend to use the law & regulations to it's full extend. The same way HO has been doing and will always keep on doing in their decision making!

I send money (through my wife) to my mother-in-law, in order to support her in provinding the basic needs for her daugher. They are depending on this. The only thing I can do is send money over and provide this as proof. Unfortunately it's not a well developped island like the UK and therefore I can't think of any other sorts of proof.

Do you, or anyone else, can give me advice on what more proof to give to strengthen her application?

Thanks so much!

[Premo]

anyone?

[Lucapooka]

However, in all due respect I don't agree with you.

Why not simply apply and see what happens. It's free, and you'll then know if the UKBA agree with you!

[keffers]

However, we are talking about the treaty rights of an EU citizen. It’s a really grey area. Is the UK allowed to make up their own definitions regarding being financially dependent?

As long as its reasonable, within the law and arguable in court - yes.

£1 a month would not be sufficient even in the poorest countries.

Is what you send needed in order for them to meet their essential living costs? Can you prove it is sent by you, to them and received by them?

[Premo]

Thank you Lucapooka and Keffers,

I send around £300 per month, somtimes more. That converts to $1200 ECD. They are living in a remote rural village were there's no employment. $1200 is a lot of money over there and can definitely provide in the basics for more then 1 person. (in this case mom and daughter)

The daughter is 16 now and is not going school anymore as they can't afford.

How do you view it now?