My passport has expired and ILR is due

jeeboo1046 · Post by **jeeboo1046** » Sat May 12, 2012 3:54 pm

Hi to all,
my indian passport has just expired and my ilr is due, can i apply for ilr without renewing my passport. I don't want to renew my passport as i have no intention to go back to india. im living here in UK since i came 4 and 1/2 ago on hsmp and have never left this country.
your replies will be highly appreciated.

simsony · Post by **simsony** » Sat May 12, 2012 10:45 pm

Hi,

A visa requires a current and valid passport. The name on the visa and BRP card must match a valid passport with the same details.
The visa is the permission and the passport is the identification.

An ILR is not a British passport or travel document, you need a passport.

Technically you currently don't have any valid identity.

You need to renew your Indian passport ASAP.

Post by **vinny** » Sat May 12, 2012 11:47 pm

See also Passport expired, can I apply for ILR?

jeeboo1046 · Post by **jeeboo1046** » Sun May 13, 2012 9:32 am

hi simsoy and vinny, i highly appreciate your replies.
Im still confused. I think there should be some law for such expired passport cases. Since i have come i have never left and will never leave uk. passport is a travel document, and its authenticity was established when i was first granted entry clearance and then extension. According to ukba if authenticity has already been established and points awarded for some document, we don't need to send it again to home office as they have all the record, similary it should be true for passports as well.
I don't need to travel, so i shoud not need it.

jeeboo1046 · Post by **jeeboo1046** » Sun May 13, 2012 9:52 am

technically, when i had fisrt applied for entry clearance in india, they had taken my fingre prints when i was submitting my document. And when im going to applly for ilr they will call me for brp fingre prints, so the data will be matched and identity proved and established, secondly ukba has started awarding ilr on cards rather than passports so the passport should not be an issue again.

sham111 · Post by **sham111** » Sun May 13, 2012 4:12 pm

I Don't understand why u don't want to renew your passport.

Did the Govt of india revoked your passport?
Or
Do you any convictions?

simsony · Post by **simsony** » Sun May 13, 2012 5:24 pm

No confusion, passport is an identification document.

Even if you do not leave the UK you still need a valid visa, and thus a valid passport. A passport is required to prove citizenship and immigration status so you must have a current passport of the country you are a citizen of.

You cannot use other documents like a UK driving license to get a visa. This is clearly given in law and in the application guidelines.

See Section 11A of SET(O) form for eg. "Your current passport or travel document"

A valid passport is the most important document as an immigrant. Just do the normal thing, and get your passport renewed.

Post by **geriatrix** » Sun May 13, 2012 5:40 pm

Unfortunately, even after more than a year, the relevant guidance has not been updated.

Hence, no one can say for sure if the previous instructions are still in practice, or has a new policy been introduced.

simsony · Post by **simsony** » Sun May 13, 2012 5:46 pm

BRP card must be shown with a passport. You cannot just use the BRP card.

See the guidelines.

Post by **geriatrix** » Sun May 13, 2012 6:04 pm

simsony wrote:BRP card must be shown with a passport.

Where? At the airport!!
But the OP clearly states that he has not travelled outside UK since he arrived .. and doesn't intend to travel in the future (perhaps until he has British passport).

I don't want to renew my passport as i have no intention to go back to india. im living here in UK since i came 4 and 1/2 ago on hsmp and have never left this country.

So, can we address the query appropriately ... in light of OP's statement(s) ... and provide an appropriate response!

If the previous policy (links to which have been provided both by Vinny and I) is still functional, everyone advising the OP that "renewing his passport is the only option" and "ILR application must include a "valid" passport" is providing him with inaccurate advice and only trying to prove their own perception. And that doesn't help the OP.

simsony · Post by **simsony** » Sun May 13, 2012 6:12 pm

The BRP/fingerprint is not a substitute for ID as the OP is trying to claim. This is also mentioned on UKBA.

This is independent of travel or not. Fingerprints are not a substitute for passport.

So I don't know what the ambiguity is, there is no current link that states that an expired document is permitted, even the ones posted by you.

However the current SET(O) form in Section 11A clearly states current passport, and also states that a previous passport must be provided if it has the visas.

Post by **geriatrix** » Sun May 13, 2012 6:17 pm

OP - call UKBA to enquire / confirm - refer to the instructions (linked above). If possible, get a response in writing.

jeeboo1046 · Post by **jeeboo1046** » Sun May 13, 2012 6:21 pm

Thank you very much for your replies. One of my friends just called me today who works on an offshore oil rig in aberdeen. he told me that he was on oil rig for few days and meanwhile his passport expired and ilr was due, he had no time to apply for new passport. He came to know on the day of application that the passport was actually expired. He just called ukba and according to instructions wrote a covering letter and got ILR on time without any delay. So it means its possible.
Its really a common sense thing that there should be relaxation for those people whose passport gets stolen, is lost or is expired and they don't know untill the day of application.
What if someone completes 5 years on tier1 lawfully in uk, and on the day of application comes to know that he/she dropped his/her passport on his/her way to the premium service????
definitely, ukba guys have these things in mind and common sense says that UKBA law should accomodate such situations.

jeeboo1046 · Post by **jeeboo1046** » Sun May 13, 2012 6:26 pm

sushdmehta is right, the part of the IDI instructions which is related to passports in chapter 22 is still missing, so untill it comes back online, law will stay same and it has got relaxation for some passport issues. I think there will always be relaxation for some situations because everyone is not perfect and there are people like me who do mistakes, also there are sometimes unavoiadable nasty situations like losing passport on last day or if someone doesn't know that passport was expired.

Post by **geriatrix** » Sun May 13, 2012 6:46 pm

simsony wrote:The BRP/fingerprint is not a substitute for ID as the OP is trying to claim. This is also mentioned on UKBA.

This is independent of travel or not. Fingerprints are not a substitute for passport.

So I don't know what the ambiguity is, there is no current link that states that an expired document is permitted, even the ones posted by you.

However the current SET(O) form in Section 11A clearly states current passport, and also states that a previous passport must be provided if it has the visas.

simsony - If I cannot prove that the previous instructions are not in effect because UKBA has not updated the policy yet doesn't necessarily mean that it has been overridden by a new policy ... and therefore you are correct by default. It just means that the only way for the OP to know for sure is from the horse's mouth (UKBA) regarding the current policy on the matter.

SET(O) - version 5/2009 - also asked for "current" passport ... a form that was current at the time when the instructions in question were in force. So, do you mean to suggest that because the SET(O) form then asked for a "current" passport, that the IDI was to be ignored and was irrelevant?

BRP is issued to an individual, not a passport - and contains biographic details (name, date and place of birth) and biometric information (finger prints & photograph) of the individual. If a vignette (which shows a passport number of the applicant) could have been issued on an expired passport, why can't a BRP be (which, presumably, contains no passport detail information). Likewise, one's nationality of proof of citizenship does not simply become "unknown" if one does not have a "current" passport in possession. If UKBA can grant British citizenship on the basis of a "expired passport", I see no reason to not believe that the old policy for ILR may still be in force. It is just that it is unknown and a question of enquiring from one who can tell for sure (UKBA) ... rather than from me or you.

Like I said, there is no point in trying to prove a perception. The best (and perhaps the only) way for the OP to know for sure is to check with UKBA.

simsony · Post by **simsony** » Sun May 13, 2012 9:14 pm

There is the law and there is the policy guidance. Policy guidance is not law and can change at any time, without parliament. It is an HO organisational document.

Policy guidance is not subject to appeal unless a law is being broken.

A lot of things can be done so long as the law is not contradicted. BRP can be issued freely, can be used independently as ID, maybe even used as a NI card or a credit card one day if desired. But these are all guesses of what could be possible.

Indeed they could be updating the IDI document to remove the very clause to allow issuing on expired passports. HO are not legally required to publish guidance policy.

My point is simple:
The OP is trying to self soothe that it is not required. The previous policy does not automatically apply. For all cases, individual case worker discretion can apply.

There may be unpublished documents or old documents still in effect that may override or allow for exceptions. For this, I agree with what you say, contacting UKBA is the only option.

Personally, I don't know why it is such a big deal to renew, it seems quite strange to me. It is the safest option in case the policy or law changes. I guess OP is escaping from India/Indian Govt/Embassy.

If he is adamant to pursue this, yes he should contact UKBA and get a formal answer if the previous exceptions or any new unpublished exceptions are in place.

From published documents, at this time, a current passport is required. A fingerprint is not a substitute.

Post by **geriatrix** » Sun May 13, 2012 9:33 pm

A link to the law, that you refer to, which states that ILR (in the form of a vignette or BRP) cannot be issued in absence of a "current and valid" passport ... will be useful ... rather than stating that such a law exists.

Definitely, the law will override the IDI. No question about it. But where is it? Surely it will put an end to the ambiguity. So, a link please ....

simsony · Post by **simsony** » Sun May 13, 2012 9:59 pm

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas ... ibilities/#

You must tell us immediately by emailing BRPError@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk if you know or suspect that:
the information held on your permit is untrue, misleading or incomplete;

In your email you should state:
your full name;
your date of birth;
your nationality;
your passport number;

An expired passport number is no longer valid, and is misleading, so the information should be updated.

"The permit .... cannot be used instead of a passport or travel document."

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... metricreg/

If a foreign national does not comply with requirements made under the biometric registration regulations, the Secretary of State may:
refuse or reject an immigration application for leave;
vary or cancel a person's existing leave;

I am not trying to argue, but there is no current published evidence for allowing expired passports! Yes it was there in old policy, not law. Where is it now? Why was it withdrawn? Is it not reasonable to say that the guidance is being revised? It may be this exact point.

You are asking me to prove the negative. The working logic is that all documents are current and valid unless an exception is defined. For eg the 3 month grace for Tier1/HSMP entry.

Can you provide the current link in law (or even policy for that matter) where an invalid passport/document is accepted for ILR and/or BRP?

I don't understand this animosity to me, the current published documents are very clear in this regard. No need for roundabout guesses and indirect inferences. The only possibility is an unpublished exception.

Post by **geriatrix** » Sun May 13, 2012 10:20 pm

There is no animosity .. so please don't take offence.

I am just asking you to provide the link to the law that you state exists. All the links you have provided and texts you have quoted are also UKBA policy ... published on UKBA website ... not the law ... and none of what you have quoted states unambiguously that "ILR cannot be issed without the applicant possessing a current passport". But you are suggesting that that is indeed the interpretation, and unfortunately, I humbly disagree! And just because I do not agree with you shouldn't make you perceive that I have animosity towards you (or with anyone that I disagree with).

And I am not trying to prove that I am right. In the very first response in this topic I have clearly stated that no one here in the forum may be able to give the OP a definitely accurate answer. But your earlier posts (barring the last two) have repeated only one thing - OP cannot, under current law / policy, be issued ILR without a current passport. Perhaps, but even you don't know for sure ... just like I am unsure.

It is called constructive argument ... to get to know (or become aware of) facts that I or you may not be aware of. e.g. - you say a law exists.. and I am unaware of it (or as I understand it there is there is no such law) .. and am asking for a link ... so everyone can benefit.

Anyhow, there is nothing more of value that I can add to the topic other than what I have already stated so I'll end responding in this topic. If you find the law that you say exists, do post a link ... for everyone's benefit. I am more than happy to be proven wrong ... if it provides accurate answers to someone's query.

OP - if you get a confirmation from UKBA in the matter, do post ... for everyone's benefit.

SgtBellPepper · Post by **SgtBellPepper** » Sun May 13, 2012 10:39 pm

May I possibly stick my neck out here and suggest/query something?

Is it possible, that perhaps one could argue that the terms "current" and "valid" are ambiguous and misleading?

Here's what I mean. The regulation states you must have a "current" passport, not a "valid" passport. In other words all passport holders are "current-ly" in possession, but not all passport holders are in possession of a "valid" passport.

Does that make sense?

simsony · Post by **simsony** » Sun May 13, 2012 11:07 pm

Here is the law itself:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008 ... on/18/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008 ... on/23/made

Note that the actual wording of the law is even more encompassing.
As per the wording of the law, the information must be provided. At the very least that the passport has/is expired.

Whether a new document ("BRP") is issued is up to the Secretary of State.

simsony · Post by **simsony** » Sun May 13, 2012 11:17 pm

SgtBellPepper wrote:May I possibly stick my neck out here and suggest/query something?

Is it possible, that perhaps one could argue that the terms "current" and "valid" are ambiguous and misleading?

Here's what I mean. The regulation states you must have a "current" passport, not a "valid" passport. In other words all passport holders are "current-ly" in possession, but not all passport holders are in possession of a "valid" passport.

Does that make sense?

You have a point, indeed it all boils down to what meaning a passport's expiry date has in a way. But having given all this discussion some more thought, this is all moot anyway. For 99.999% of the people out there, you would just renew your passport and be on the safe side. It's a no brainer. There is time in this case, it isn't expensive at all.

Fair enough if you were caught out by surprise, but that isn't the case here.

The OP is doing something very strange IMHO. If he gets it great, but it has left me somewhat at unease.

Over and out.

jeeboo1046 · Post by **jeeboo1046** » Sun May 13, 2012 11:47 pm

simsony, may people who apply for asylum don't show their nationailities and declare that they dont have a passport even then they are given settlement though they dont have passports at all. That settlement is issued on paper. Few other guys who apply for long residence settlement dont show passports and even then get settlement on paper. Where as a person who lives here for 5 years on tier1 general lawfully with all of the requirements full filled except passport being updated is a lot simpler case.

Post by **geriatrix** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:47 am

simsony wrote:Here is the law itself:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008 ... on/18/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008 ... on/23/made

Note that the actual wording of the law is even more encompassing.
As per the wording of the law, the information must be provided. At the very least that the passport has/is expired.

Whether a new document ("BRP") is issued is up to the Secretary of State.

You are referring to a legislation that relates to biometric immigration document (e.g. - BRP) issued by UKBA through the powers this legislation provides to the UK's Secretary of State.

Neither is a passport a biometric immigration document in context of this legislation nor is a foreign passport issued by UK government.

vertue · Post by **vertue** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:32 am

Hi all,

my family passports expires in april 2013 and thier limited leave to remain expires in jan 2013. as for as i'm concern we need to submit applications in decembers 2012. will these passport requires to renew? or we are fine to apply with these passport as i'm concern if we apply in december and they issue ilr in may by the time the passports would be expires.

please advise.

thanks in advance.

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