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New HSMP changes rational?

Archived UK Tier 1 (General) points system forum. This route no longer exists.

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zhassan
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Location: Melbourne (Australia)

New HSMP changes rational?

Post by zhassan » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:25 am

Hi Moderators,
I would like to invite all members old gurus and newbies to share their ideas on this subject. Is there any way to convey the negative effects of these new changes to HO?

Thank You,
ZIA

rella
Member
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:59 am

Post by rella » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:01 am

They know exactly how negative the changes are. They don't care about us as individuals and families. They care about meeting certain numerical targets and getting Labour reelected next election.

The only thing that will get their attention is adverse publicity about it and pressure from people with power. That's not us. It has to come from opposition political parties who want to make Labour look bad. It has to come from companies who will be inconvenienced by these rule changes and who like the HSMP system the way it was. Our goal needs to be getting those people to pressure the Labour Home Secretary, because whining from us will get us nowhere.

lanr3e
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Post by lanr3e » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:13 am

You may find your answer to the question in the post below (N.B It's a transcript btw the Minister of State for Immigration and a Lawyer. it was posted on HSMP2006 yahoo group forum)

Consultation and timing:

I should first clarify that these changes are not the points based system (PBS) and that we have not yet introduced the PBS. The changes are, as the announcement stated, the first step towards the pes, but they are different to that system. The new attributes are indeed the same as those set out in the PBS Command Paper. However,we have changed the HSMP attributes on two previous occasions within the brief lifetime of the programme and these changes are not different in kind to those. Indeed, HSMP has always been a 'points based system'. Many of the features which will define the PBS - the introduction of control tests (for example, funds), the move to a one-stage decision process for Tiers 1-3, and the removal of the right of appeal in entry clearance cases - have not been introduced with this change. It is therefore not correct to assert that we have now introduced the PBS without consultation.

It is not our normal practice to carry out formal public consultations on changes to the Immigration Rules, and I strongly dispute the contention that we have broken any undertakings to consult.

The changes will come into effect on 5 December and we will be monitoring their impact, fully evaluating the new arrangements before we make formal preparations for the implementation of Tier 1 of the PBS.

An announcement of a definite policy change within three weeks would, I believe, have led to an even larger increase in the number of applications, which would have resulted in very significant operational difficulties, and, as a result, poor customer service for applicants. In the light of this, there is no reason not to bring the changes in quickly. However, by making the forms and guidance available during the suspension period, we have tried to avoid inconveniencing our clients.

You are also concerned that people who were in the process of preparing their HSMP applications have been disadvantaged by the changes. I accept that applicants in some cases may need to make further enquiries to obtain additional documents, but this is unlikely to result in significant additional expense - applicants will possess many of the necessary documents themselves and are likely to be able to use some of the others which they were already preparing to submit. In fact, applicants can still submit applications on the old FLR (lED) form during the suspension period, so they will not necessarily have to redo their whole application. They can either send in additional material or wait for us to write out to them, requesting additional documents.

Tests at extension

I do not accept that those who receive a grant of leave in a category have a legitimate expectation that the rules for further grants of leave within that category which existed at the time of their first grant of leave will apply to them for the rest of the time that they spend in the UK. The rules must be capable of being changed from time to time so that the Government can carry out its policies - in this case, to ensure that those granted further leave to remain under HSMP will benefit the UK economy. The power to make changes to the Immigration Rules, as laid out in the Immigration Act 1971, is not restricted to changing the rules for entry, or to changing the leave to remain rules only for those who obtained leave to enter when those were in force. The only expectation which applicants should have is that the rules and policies which are in force when their application is decided will be correctly applied to them.

Indeed, it has never been guaranteed that applicants would qualify for further or indefinite leave to remain, so there has always been the risk of not qualifying for further leave. We have merely tightened up the rules. I also do not believe that this is incompatible with the requirement under HSMP to have made the UK your main home. This does not require the severing of all connections with the country of origin and refers to the need to make the UK your main home during the course of your leave, which is necessary for highly skilled migrants.

As you know, we have introduced extensive transitional arrangements to ensure that we retain many of the talented people who will not pass the new points test for extension applications. These cater both for the self-employed and independent contractors, and make the process of switching into work permit employment for those who have been in employment easier. I am satisfied that this will allow the vast majority of people who have been economically active, but who will not pass the points test, to be granted further leave to remain.

The statement in the consultation document on the PBS that HSMP Participants and work permit holders will be able to qualify for permanent Residence remains correct. That statement did not, however, imply that the qualifying criteria for grants of leave under those categories would remain Unchanged.

I note your concerns about the introduction into the two new prescribed forms of a declaration that applicants recognise that the Immigration Rules may change during the course of their leave. This does not introduce a new power. As I explain above, we are already able to change the rules in this manner. This merely makes it explicitly clear to the applicant that this is possible, and so is in the interests of applicants. The introduction of this clause is not intended to justify the current changes, nor does it imply that applicants would not have been aware of this possibility beforehand.

The power which this clause describes is not about changing 'the basis of [the applicant's] status at any point in the future without any notice at all', as you write. Unless there are individual reasons to curtail somebody's leave, which do not relate to broad policy changes, applicants will always be able to complete their existing leave. The issue in this case is about future grants of leave. I understand that you feel that there should have been consultation about the introduction of this clause. It would not be practicable for us to consult on the introduction of every new clause into a form, especially when the clause relates to the exercise of an existing power.

New attributes

You have raised a number of issues concerning the changes to the points scoring criteria.

We have removed the points for work experience in favour of those for previous earnings. When drawing up policy before the publication of the PBS Command Paper, my officials carried out an analysis of existing HSMP participants at the further leave to remain stage. Those applicants who had scored points for previous salary were earning significantly more than those who had not, and those who had not (those who tended to score the majority of their points on the basis of previous work experience) were often not in highly skilled employment. We believe that the best judge of whether an applicant has the appropriate experience to succeed in the labour market is an employer, rather than an immigration official.

People with work experience but a lower previous salary are welcome to apply for a work permit; their prospective employer will often offer them a job on this basis. This is reflected in the responses to the consultation. The consultation response covered both Tiers 1 and 2, and the emphasis on the importance of work experience as opposed to salary is likely to be more in relation to Tier 2. This was the impression which my officials gained from their analysis of the consultation responses. Finally, previous salary is a much clearer, more objective attribute than work experience, and the responses to the consultation listed objectivity as the most important factor in drawing up the new system.

We have emphasised the degree requirement because we are satisfied that those applicants with degrees are likely to be those who best meet the aims of the HSMP. Applicants may also apply on the basis of equivalent level professional qualifications and those without a degree may apply under other categories of the Immigration Rules. We have included points for age in order to reward young, highly skilled migrants who have good salaries for their age, but who may struggle to gain enough previous salary points because of their lack of work experience. The inclusion of points for age is a natural consequence of the inclusion of those for previous salary.

The Home Office has not made misleading statements about the inclusion of work experience as an attribute, nor have we ignored the responses to the consultation. As I have mentioned, the responses about previous work experience in the consultation are likely to have related more to Tier 2. We gave very strong consideration to the consultation responses, but we may sometimes take a different view, particularly if our analysis has led to different conclusions. Any comments on work experience in the five year strategy reflected our thinking at that time and predated that analysis - had we already made a definite decision in February 2005 that points would be included for certain factors, this would have made the consultation superfluous.

It is correct that those who switch into another category will not be able to use their previous leave under HSMP to qualify for settlement. Although I am aware that this may cause frustration to some people, the Immigration Rules are drafted in this way (and have been for some time) because those switching from HSMP into another route may not have been economically active during their HSMP leave.

Any set of attributes which we choose is likely to exclude some highly skilled people. I am satisfied that the new requirements for HSMP will exclude as few of these people as possible and that they contain sufficient flexibility to cater for talented people from across the world.

I do understand your concerns and I realise that the introduction of these changes may at first lead to some uncertainty amongst those who apply for the HSMP. However, I am satisfied that these changes strike the correct balance between the need to address the needs of HSMP applicants with the need to carry out policies which are in the interests of the UK.

For the reasons which I have set out, I am afraid that I cannot agree that the changes be suspended pending formal consultation, or that the old rules for extension applications be applied to those already in the UK. Regarding your request for confirmation that at least twenty-one days' notice be given for all future Rules changes, we will always endeavour to give this notice unless there are strong reasons not to, as there were in this case.

Tobias1972
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Post by Tobias1972 » Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:22 am

lanr3e wrote: People with work experience but a lower previous salary are welcome to apply for a work permit; their prospective employer will often offer them a job on this basis. This is reflected in the responses to the consultation. The consultation response covered both Tiers 1 and 2, and the emphasis on the importance of work experience as opposed to salary is likely to be more in relation to Tier 2. This was the impression which my officials gained from their analysis of the consultation responses. Finally, previous salary is a much clearer, more objective attribute than work experience, and the responses to the consultation listed objectivity as the most important factor in drawing up the new system.
Salary = objectivity?

Oh boy, someone at the HO is seriously out of touch with reality. First of all, salary records can be forged. It would be very easy for someone to buy some small business software and print out his/her own 'official, company-issued' pay stubs and tax forms. To back them up, he/she could set up a very real phone number for this fake business in case anyone at HO should wish to verify the pay stubs and tax forms.

Second of all, even if all documents are legitimate, salary is just a small part of the 'equation.' Two people might hold an identical position and do very similar tasks, yet receive widely different salaries based on company size and resources, city, etc.

Let's take the United States or United Kingdom, for instance. An accountant or high-level IT professional working for a small, non-profit company in Mississippi or Belfast may earn a relatively low salary and not get the salary points. Meanwhile, his/her counterpart (doing the exact same job) working for a for-profit firm in New York or London may earn much more and easily get the required salary points.

When you apply for a new job, the interviewer doesn't only ask 'what was your last salary and highest level of education?' He/she wants to know what you can do, where you've been working, and what your accomplishments have been. So why should the HSMP, which supposedly seeks to 'hire' people to revitalise the British economy, be any different? I wouldn't be surprised if the flaws of the new HSMP become all-too evident as employers have to deal with some people who may not have practical skills other than being able to manipulate a fat paycheque and pass some university exams. Other immigrant-friendly nations, such as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, don't have a problem using work experience to assess candidates, so I can't see why the UK is unable or unwilling to deal with it.

Beyond this, the way the Home Office implemented the changes was ridiculous and unprofessional. Obviously, the threat of having many thousands of productive, hard-working immigrants and their families deported simply because the HO says that they were never technically guaranteed FLR or ILR (the whole HO argument that immigrants were expected to make the UK their main home ONLY during the time of their initial leave is a joke) is unfair, unjust, and very detrimental to Britain's image a potential destination for immigrants.

Not to mention that it's even unfair for new applicants, who had been advised that the new changes would not take place until mid-2007 at the earliest. Then came 7th November, disrupting application preparations and immigration consultations-and dashing the hopes of quite a few would-be HSMPers who may have been just weeks or days away from applying. The HO claims that if it had given prior notice, the office would have been swamped with applications and would have had operational problems. This reveals a lot, especially that, to the HO, what HSMPers do or feel is irrelevant. What matters is what is easiest or most politically advantageous for the HO. That is the bottom line as far as managed immigration to the UK is concerned.

Rog
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Location: London

Post by Rog » Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:16 am

I suggest that as many of us as possible, contact or write to the Shadow Immigration Minister Mr Damien Green about the unfairness of retrpospective changes highlighting that we are contributing members of the British Society. His contact details are as below

Damian holds regular advice bureaus. You can make an appointment by phoning 01233 820454 during office hours.

Constituency Office:-

Telephone: 01233 820454
Fax: 01233 820111

Write to:
Damian Green MP
Hardy House
The Street
Bethersden
Ashford
Kent
TN26 3AG

Westminster:-

Telephone: 020 7219 3911
Fax: 020 7219 0904

Write to:
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

You can also e-mail Damian at:
greend@parliament.uk

zhassan
Junior Member
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Melbourne (Australia)

Post by zhassan » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:36 am

What I understand from these responses that Government is just testing the new PBS using change in HSMP, to see how these changes affect (bad/good) this system.
Now the question is how Government will respond to those which are affected from these changes?
ZIA

PASS
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Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:29 pm

Post by PASS » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:08 am

It’s all about granting ILR

HSMP is effectively in operational since 2002.

Rule of the game in 2002: Qualify for ILR in 4 years time
Rule of the game in 2006(close to ILR for original HSMPs): Go an extra mile to get ILR (5 yrs rule)
Rule of the game in Dec 2006 (close to ILR): Well done, Jump this barrier (75 new points) you may be guaranteed with ILR.

HO view: It is fair, because, the scheme is being tested effectively with changes as the scheme evolved. Now, it is ready, and thus helps us to effectively manage whom we want to keep permanently. This innovative method will be applied to all others (Tier 1, 2…..) which is a new invention of HO.

HSMP holder : Most them undergone or undergoing the HO's radical changes that has been tested (without realising that they have been used as a tool to test the new model). If the rules of the game are informed in advance no frustration at all (But, HO was not clear in advance about what rules to apply and when - evolutionary process).

What Current HSMP can expect and indeed HO might compromise with legal argument if any in future:

A. If HSMP switch to WP, if reasonable amount of time spent on HSMP with appropriate contribution to economy (NI and tax), the period may be considered for ILR – for those who do not qualify for 75 points.

B. Support from member of public/ MP for A

What current HSMP can’t expect:

C. Rule of the game set back to the original level.
D. Support from any member of public/ MP for C

This is my personal view.

Thanks

Rog
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Location: London

Post by Rog » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:21 am

Those on 1+3 are worst affected. And since the scheme is 'evolving' who knows what is store for 1+4 at the end of 5 years. If they are indeed going to reset the clock then those who may somehow get a WP after 4 years of HSMP look at 9 years stay before ILR (if there are no further retrospective changes) which is devastating. HSMP numbers may be in 000s. How will deporting these people solve any problems. EU migrants and illegal squatters are in 00,000s numbers.

rella
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Post by rella » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:30 am

What is the allure of the UK for all the new EU member nationals? It's much more expensive to live here than most other countries in Europe. The salaries are low, except for those who want to work in the finance and big oil sectors. The NHS is one of the worst health care systems in Europe. The youth are the worst behaved in Europe. The schools suck.

Hey... why are we all here? :lol:

If other European countries had a similar scheme to HSMP, then I think many of us would have opted for other countries to settle in. The one thing the British gov't needs to keep in mind is that many highly skilled people ONLY chose this country because of the ease of the HSMP route that allowed us to choose employers or start a business. Guess it was nice while it lasted..

Rog
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Location: London

Post by Rog » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:52 am

Most people flocking in from European states are from the former Soviet bloc countries which are not as well developed as their neighbours in the western europe, hence the rush to enter UK. For HSMP migrants, most of them are from developing countries and expect a better standard of living in general and a better future for their children. However for the government, skilled migrants, except a few in highly paid jobs, rank at the lowest level of priority below criminals, asylum seekers and illegal stayers.

fosho
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Post by fosho » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:55 am

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HSMP2006/

join this group if you are affected ..

rella
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Post by rella » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:26 pm

Rog,

My point is that it's cheaper to live in many areas of France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc, etc, than the UK. So, I'm surprised that so many new EU nationals are heading over here to pay a ridiculous amount of money for basic living expenses.

Rog
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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:21 pm
Location: London

Post by Rog » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:27 pm

True, apart from English being the language of communication there is no real benefit and maybe to take advantage of the £ exchange rate. Many East european people I have met are buying properties back home after converting £ to their local currency. But with more than 600k Poles there must be some advantage to be in UK.

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