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OL7MAX
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:22 pm

Post by OL7MAX » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:06 pm

Moving on...
Shadow immigration minister Damian Green said: "Without a visible improvement in the government's ability to plan and control immigration, public confidence in the system will remain low."
Maybe half the problems people perceive with immigration wouldn't be there if it was better planned for and managed.

vin123
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Post by vin123 » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:41 pm

OL7MAX wrote:vin123, may I clarify something? If it's your assertion that people from South Asia account for a disproportionately large percentage of benefit fraud - the corollary of which is that they are inherently more dishonest - is there some evidence you have to back it up, or is it just a gut feeling?
Govt and their policy makers are shrewd enough to protect their "vote banks" by not painting any community bad in the public domain.
If you still have a lust for evidence, search parliament question answer sessions concerning "facial profiles of customers or the localities" who were investigated by benefit fraud agency or jobcentre plus. That is of course, only a nice and polished way of putting it, if you see my point.

Also, if you analyse a bit deeper on these issues, there is no wonder, from where on earth, this nasty & dearly beloved BNP party get their sales pitch or policies to influence people in the white community?

Please, for heaven sake, I'm not trying to stamp any community bad or good here but I strongly feel that "the damage is somewhat already done". Now its hard to change people's perception especially we have media in this country, which I feel is somewhat raising banners against anti-immigration by providing bloated-up facts in the recent times. Of course, nobody reads a common tax payers mind like the media does to sell their stuff.

There is no doubt in my mind that current and potential immigrants are suffering the consequences. Hence I wrote honestly whatever I felt
There was a survery a couple of years ago testing honesty across different nations ....


Regarding honesty issue you pointed out, I feel these two are two separate issues to be debated. Honesty is something not required by law, but you action it voluntarily based on your conscience and the situation. For example - if you spot a mobile phone left or forgotten in a public space , depending on your "honesty" level, you can chose to do at least 5 things - which I need not mention here. Committing benefit fraud is ONE action and honesty there lies far beneath the mentionable levels, and regardless of colour, race , sex or even to feed a hungry starving kid, a LIE is a LIE.
Never mind the "native born British"; do you welcome immigrants with open arms?
My answer is: I strongly feel that only less than 50% (of course this is my own statistics) of the really deserving ones end up in this country and there is no place to any immigrant regardless of their background coming with that "eat the free cake" attitude that I mentioned earlier. I dont think we can achieve a 100% in anything but if you can stretch that to atleast -70 or 80%, UK will benefit a lot from immigration.

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Administrator
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Post by Administrator » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:28 am

.

That was actually a very interesting article that I hadn't caught yet.

Thank you for posting the link.


However, the reason I am in this thread now is that the 'discussion' very definitely veered off-topic into personal attacks.

Folks, take a breath, step back, and please discuss the topic on its own merits in a civilized fashion.

Quite a number of assertions were made here without information to back them up. If you feel so strongly about a particular viewpoint or bit of data, please have the courtesy to post information to back up your viewpoint, including links to your sources.

I am addressing just about everyone who participated here, so don't anyone feel like I'm scolding you personally.

Let us all please keep our sense of humor.


That said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6109230.stm
Sir Andrew Green of pressure group Migrationwatch UK, said he believed the current rate of immigration was not sustainable.

"Even at the present rate it's still well above the Government's assumption for the future and that assumption would mean that we had an extra million people every five years," he said.

Danny Sriskandarajah, a migration expert with the Institute for Public Policy Research thinktank, said that the figures should neither surprise nor alarm.

"The challenge for policymakers will be to make the most of increased mobility, not pander to reactionary opinion by trying to curb flows."
I've had to read through quite a lot of the viewpoints expressed by Migrationwatch (UK and otherwise). While some of their data is interesting, the extrapolations and so-called ''logic'' that follow from their highly selective data sets color a picture that is quite distorted toward their personal viewpoints and agendas.

The sort of logic and ''debate'' expressed by this organization is not the sort of place I would like to see this forum become.

In either direction for this particular debate.

I'm leaving the thread unlocked for the time in case folks wish to discuss the subject on-topic.

Please note that there are several links at this article and *.pdf files with more details. I'd be quite pleased to see some of those points debated here.

I am hardly a top-end immigration expert myself and I am reading, studying and (hopefully) learning each day.


So. Less hysteria & hyperbole. More information, sources cited and civilized debate. Please.

That is all.

Please play nicely.

The Admin

vivekR
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Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:23 pm
Location: SE London

Immigration

Post by vivekR » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:56 pm

Hello All,

Personally, I would have veered off from commenting on this particyular topic because quite a few interesting, intelligent and disturbing remarks made by some.

On a public forum here, none of have the right to humiliate any single community or group. All in all we are all migrants. We cant stand by ourselves in a forum, why should anyone stand up and defend the migrant's cause?!!

I am attaching a few links for everyone's benefit. Like it or not, fact remains that the system is abused mainly by the native Brit, be it Black/ Green/ White/ yello or otherwise!! We as legal migrants are mostly those who are well above the minimum threshold for the benefits. Benefits system was for the needy, and if you knew just one person from the DWP, Dept for pensions, benefits etc, you would be shocked to see how much the system is abused. There have been enough programmes on Telly with undercover reporters showing the same!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/poli ... 487707.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3515713.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4117300.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4626200.stm

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/pressre ... r-2006#144


And finally : here's the hardcore stats for the people interested. Read that and then by all means single out any single migrant commuinity for their dishonest benefit fraud!!

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/statistical_summaries.asp

Without us, the migrants, the system, ie the NHS, the IT feilds, the banking network, the low level labour and all others would come to grinding halt.

One point of arguement could be that when the Brits colonised the commonwealth nations, they also went to these countries like us for a better and more properous future. How are we different?!!

olisun
Diamond Member
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Re: Immigration

Post by olisun » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:08 pm

vivekR wrote: Without us, the migrants, the system, ie the NHS, the IT feilds, the banking network, the low level labour and all others would come to grinding halt.
Not really
vivekR wrote:

One point of arguement could be that when the Brits colonised the commonwealth nations, they also went to these countries like us for a better and more properous future. How are we different?!!
Better future or to LOOT them... :lol: :lol: :lol:

OL7MAX
Member of Standing
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:22 pm

Post by OL7MAX » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:57 pm

Not really
I liked all the data you used to back that up ;)

jayj
Junior Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:27 pm

Post by jayj » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:27 pm

Guys,

We have a severe problem/s at the moment relating to HO and their beilligerent rules. We've got to stop fighting each other and fight the cause for justice.
We need to plan something quick or else we shall have ourselves to blame cos we didn't fight the cause. HO assumes that they can walk all over us and we can do nothing about it.....it's time fellow migrants...SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE AND I'M AFRAID THE PASSIVE NATURE HAS TO BE LOST...BOLDNESS AND HARD ATTITUDE....

We've put a lot into coming over here , leaving family behind etc... trusting that if we work hard abide by the rules, HO will honour their side...it's not gonna happen....

olisun
Diamond Member
Posts: 1079
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 2:01 am

Post by olisun » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:31 pm

OL7MAX wrote:
Not really
I liked all the data you used to back that up ;)
Well my response was based on "How many migrants will follow you out this country?"

AFAIK there will never be one day when all the "migrants" decide to leave the country at the same time and hence that statement is baseless

UKbound
Member
Posts: 183
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Location: London

Post by UKbound » Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:59 pm

The UK, like most prosperous countries, has a large social structure to support those at the bottom, and those that retire, etc.. The cost of that structure is born by all workers, not just immigrants.. But, at the moment, the UK is losing more than 200,000 highly skilled workers each year (net), as they move abroad. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_b ... 322073.ece

I think I had read earlier this was closer to 500,000, but I couldn't find the article.

At any rate, as a result of this outward migration, they need to counter this with inward migration. This is similar to what other countries in the same boat are doing. It must be managed, though, to make sure that it's cost effective. That's why there is the limit on access to public benefits. It's basically a price that skilled immigrants pay in order to come here. The non-highly skilled immigration in the UK at the moment is coming mostly from new EU member states. They are also offsetting the cost structure by paying taxes.

The same thing is happening in the US (through legal and illegal immigration), and through the H1B program for skilled workers.

popeye
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by popeye » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:15 pm

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/liv ... ge_id=1770

Dossier shows Britain deluged by East European migrants
'We don't have jobs and we don't have anywhere to stay,' said the father. 'Our tickets cost £40 each and we borrowed the money. There is nothing for us at home so we came like everyone else.'

'The more Polish people who live in Britain the easier it is,' he explains. 'It creates a community and if you have friends from your own country you settle in easier. It is like a snowball. The more that are here, the more come. I have found my brother a job at the Hilton as a cook, and a house. So he is happy too.'



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7978fcfc-e3ae-1 ... e2340.html
http://www.apmforum.com/columns/china19.htm
http://www.scidev.net/News/index.cfm?fu ... language=1
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/200 ... 292555.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/ed ... edit_x.htm
http://www.uscc.gov/hearings/2005hearin ... y_wrts.htm

http://www.boston.com/business/technolo ... _to_india/
http://in.rediff.com/money/2006/mar/08binter.htm

"India and China already produce nearly 1m engineering graduates a year compared with roughly 170,000 such graduates from the US and Europe."

"Western students clever enough to succeed in science or engineering are clever enough to know they will compete against growing global armies of educated rivals trained to work hard for less. "

Locked