Self-Employed person posting yourself to Europe and Singh

[SRAQAI]

Hi all,

Here is my situation. I am a UK Citizen and I want to go to Paris for business purposes, which entails attending trade events and finding a French distributer of my products for distribution into the French/European market. My husband is non-EU citizen and I want to take this opportunity to use my rights under EU Law to bring him back with me to the UK. He is currently in this own country. Now, from what I understand, in order to qualify via Surinder Singh one has to be either:

1. Working for a French employer

2. Be Self Employed

I have a newly set up business, (sole trader) in the UK, and am I looking to have my products available in the French market, through Paris retail outlets. This would mean going to Paris and looking for distribution deal and having products being shipped from the UAE into France and the UK. I want to have a type of virtual presence for French customers in Paris, but the product will not be directly available through me, as it will be in the UK.

Now, in order to bring my husband over to the UK under EU regulations, I was under the impression that you have to set up business in France OR become employed. Until now, I thought I'd have to go to France and register a business there, in order to carry out business there (as well as use for evidence, re. EEA Family Permit later on), but now I have come across something that shows I do not in fact need to do that.

I have just read on the EUROPA website somewhere that a UK business person can 'post' themselves to Europe from the UK (and have their non-EU Spouse join them whilst being there) in order to carry out business activities (which I will be doing), but I will still be covered under the social security systems of my home country (UK).

Now this means that as a self employed person, I do not have to be registered as a Self Employed person in France.

In terms of the Surinder Singh ruling and Directive/2008/38, if I 'posted' myself under my UK business (still being covered by the UK Social security systems), would we still be classed as 'economically active' and will my husband be consequently eligible for an EEA Family Permit?


Also, my husband will want to get a Carte De Sejour as a family member of an EU Citizen - and find a job, whilst I am doing business. Would he still qualify this, if I am posted, or do I still need to set up a French business, even though technically I do not need to as a UK Citizen, in order to carry out business in France?

Thanks in advance

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/wo ... dex_en.htm

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

This is a different kettle of fish to what you'd posted in the European thread. If Singh is your real objective, you would need to be self employed in France to be able to use it.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=99897

Your other thread didn't mention Singh and simply getting French residence documentation may not guarantee success.

[SRAQAI]

This is a different kettle of fish to what you'd posted in the European thread. If Singh is your real objective, you would need to be self employed in France to be able to use it.

So for the purpose of Surinder Singh, would "posting" myself from my UK Business be classed as an economic activity, or would I have to register a business in France, even though technically a UK citizen, I don't really have to?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

For Singh to work, in general, you need to be employed or self-employed in another member state before returning to the UK. See regulation 9 of the regs. You may of course be able to argue other cases or even push the boundaries of case law. I would suggest you try and keep it simple.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

There is some information here on self-employed persons.

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/areas/in ... person.htm

[SRAQAI]

There is some information here on self-employed persons.

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/areas/in ... person.htm

Thank you!!!

[SRAQAI]

For Singh to work, in general, you need to be employed or self-employed in another member state before returning to the UK. See regulation 9 of the regs. You may of course be able to argue other cases or even push the boundaries of case law. I would suggest you try and keep it simple.

So I guess this would mean I HAVE to set up as a de facto business in Paris, then? Ideally, I dont want to do that, because of the Social Security implications - I don't want to pay French costations, whilst I am registered with VAT and NI in the UK. Ill be paying out twice. This is why I looked into the thing about "posting" myself (under my UK business) to work in a self Employed capacity in Paris, but in the mean time, take advantage of the surinder singh ruling to bring my husband back with me.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

See http://www.eucaselaw.info/mary-carpenter-2002/ Worth reading carefully through the original case.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

See http://www.eucaselaw.info/mary-carpenter-2002/ Worth reading carefully through the original case.

It is interesting that the OP will be moving to another Member State - actually physically moving.

The 2006 regs state that one needs to be a worker or self employed - while that might have been what the original Singh case was about, it does not of course mean that it could not be extended to a Union Citizen who move to or reside in a member state other than which they are a national.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I know the OP has said that they will move to France. But Carpenter is another option which does not require moving.

[SRAQAI]

I know the OP has said that they will move to France. But Carpenter is another option which does not require moving.

I am sorry for the late reply. I don't get notifications for some reason....Thanks so much for pointing out the Carpenter case. I want to do business in Paris, however I prefer NOT to have to 'settle' there or physically move there in order to carry out business there, because being in the UK, I do not really need to. However, if bringing my husband back with me to the UK means that I have to (under Surinder Singh) show that I am resident and carrying out business in France (which I can still do without being a physical resident there) then I will go down that route, but my business doesn't require me to reside in Paris, because of the close proximity to London - from which I am able to carry out business activities, targeting the French market, through regular travel or as an when required. I will be attending trade shows/exhibitions etc, getting orders and exhibiting products etc on one off basis.

So, under Carpenter, how am I able to take advantage of the family reunification? Do we apply for an EEA Family permit from France, whilst my husband is on A schengan entry visa?

Appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I know the OP has said that they will move to France. But Carpenter is another option which does not require moving.

I am sorry for the late reply. I don't get notifications for some reason....Thanks so much for pointing out the Carpenter case. I want to do business in Paris, however I prefer NOT to have to 'settle' there or physically move there in order to carry out business there, because being in the UK, I do not really need to. However, if bringing my husband back with me to the UK means that I have to (under Surinder Singh) show that I am resident and carrying out business in France (which I can still do without being a physical resident there) then I will go down that route, but my business doesn't require me to reside in Paris, because of the close proximity to London - from which I am able to carry out business activities, targeting the French market, through regular travel or as an when required. I will be attending trade shows/exhibitions etc, getting orders and exhibiting products etc on one off basis.

So, under Carpenter, how am I able to take advantage of the family reunification? Do we apply for an EEA Family permit from France, whilst my husband is on A schengan entry visa?

Appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks

Where is your husband presently?

You need to go through the Carpenter decision, and compare yourself to that situation. The closer what you do in terms of your travel and work to what Carpenter did, the less problems you will have and less you will have to dance around. If he was going to other member states every week and you are doing it once every three months, then there is an argument that you are in a different situation and the case does not apply.

If your husband is outside of the UK, he would need to apply for an EEA FP wherever he is. You will need to include a cover letter which refers to the carpenter case, and explain that you meet all the requirements of that case, and so the family member needs to be considered on the basis of EU law. You should request that the ECO contact the UKBA European Casework Group if they have any questions, and explain that you appreciate that it may take them a few additional days to consult with the European Casework Group before making a timely decision.

As usual, you should keep photocopies of EVERYTHING you submit.

This is at least what I would do. Yours is the first Carpenter application I have heard about, so this is new ground.

[SRAQAI]

I know the OP has said that they will move to France. But Carpenter is another option which does not require moving.

I am sorry for the late reply. I don't get notifications for some reason....Thanks so much for pointing out the Carpenter case. I want to do business in Paris, however I prefer NOT to have to 'settle' there or physically move there in order to carry out business there, because being in the UK, I do not really need to. However, if bringing my husband back with me to the UK means that I have to (under Surinder Singh) show that I am resident and carrying out business in France (which I can still do without being a physical resident there) then I will go down that route, but my business doesn't require me to reside in Paris, because of the close proximity to London - from which I am able to carry out business activities, targeting the French market, through regular travel or as an when required. I will be attending trade shows/exhibitions etc, getting orders and exhibiting products etc on one off basis.

So, under Carpenter, how am I able to take advantage of the family reunification? Do we apply for an EEA Family permit from France, whilst my husband is on A schengan entry visa?

Appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks

Where is your husband presently?

You need to go through the Carpenter decision, and compare yourself to that situation. The closer what you do in terms of your travel and work to what Carpenter did, the less problems you will have and less you will have to dance around. If he was going to other member states every week and you are doing it once every three months, then there is an argument that you are in a different situation and the case does not apply.

If your husband is outside of the UK, he would need to apply for an EEA FP wherever he is. You will need to include a cover letter which refers to the carpenter case, and explain that you meet all the requirements of that case, and so the family member needs to be considered on the basis of EU law. You should request that the ECO contact the UKBA European Casework Group if they have any questions, and explain that you appreciate that it may take them a few additional days to consult with the European Casework Group before making a timely decision.

As usual, you should keep photocopies of EVERYTHING you submit.

This is at least what I would do. Yours is the first Carpenter application I have heard about, so this is new ground.

Thank you so much for the advice. My husband is currently in Pakistan and not in France yet. Ill be travelling to France for business purposes soon and in fact he is going to apply for a schengan visa soon to meet me there.

Does this mean he can apply for the EEA FP from Pakistan without need for travelling to France first? I looked at the Carpenter case, but according to that the non EU spouse was already in the UK about to be deported. I can't see how in that context we are similar. If we are then It's a God send.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Does this mean he can apply for the EEA FP from Pakistan without need for travelling to France first? I looked at the Carpenter case, but according to that the non EU spouse was already in the UK about to be deported. I can't see how in that context we are similar. If we are then It's a God send.

What is the down side of applying for the EEA FP? If you include a clear enough cover letter and evidence that "CARPENTER APPLIES TO US!" and you ask them please to check with the European Policy Group, then I think there is a decent chance. Worst case they turn you down, and then you apply again with an even better cover letter, or you appeal the decision.

[SRAQAI]

Does this mean he can apply for the EEA FP from Pakistan without need for travelling to France first? I looked at the Carpenter case, but according to that the non EU spouse was already in the UK about to be deported. I can't see how in that context we are similar. If we are then It's a God send.

What is the down side of applying for the EEA FP? If you include a clear enough cover letter and evidence that "CARPENTER APPLIES TO US!" and you ask them please to check with the European Policy Group, then I think there is a decent chance. Worst case they turn you down, and then you apply again with an even better cover letter, or you appeal the decision.

Interesting.

My husband has never been to the UK before, never been to Europe. He has been living in Pakistan and we have been separate, due to immigration obstacles since we got married. In the Carpenter case, the spouse, from what I understand of it, was already in the UK looking after their children whilst the UKC went on frequent business to Europe. I think the only aspect of the Carpenter case that would be relevant to us, is the Human Rights to family life aspect. I am assuming that this Carpenter case would apply to us more, if my husband was already in the UK - which he isn't. I am not sure whether me traveling to France on business, from the UK whilst husband is sat in Pakistan would activate the Carpenter case for us - or would it? I guess he could try to apply to the British Embassy in Pakistan for an EEA FP, but being in Pakistan its so much hassle - security, etc. I'd only make my husband go ahead with all the running around, speaking to agents assigned by the Embassy, getting appointments etc... if there was a high chance that it was going to have a positive result. Pakistan is not an easy country to apply for a western countries' visa from... lots of crazy running around involved, which he is doing right now in Pakistan for the French Embassy, for which he has to jump over and through hoops just to get an appointment. But at least through the 2004/38/EC route there is a higher chance of getting it.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I agree with you 100% that it is an exhausting and difficult application process anywhere, and I am sure it is even more difficult in Pakistan. Hats off to your husband!

Have you ever lived together?

I will look into the Carpenter case. I do not, on first think, assume your husband needs to be in the UK first. Carpenter's wife was not there is a particularly legal way. But will think about it.

[SRAQAI]

I agree with you 100% that it is an exhausting and difficult application process anywhere, and I am sure it is even more difficult in Pakistan. Hats off to your husband!

Have you ever lived together?

I will look into the Carpenter case. I do not, on first think, assume your husband needs to be in the UK first. Carpenter's wife was not there is a particularly legal way. But will think about it.

Thank you so much for your help and advice I much appreciate it. We lived together for a short while in Pakistan after marriage but then I had to return to the UK. I wasn't able to sponsor himdown the normal spouse route as I wasnt able to as a student. I am finishing up my degree now and I've started in business so I need to get this sorted out, not being together is driving us insane. We've only been together on holidays in third countries where he'd fly in from Pakistan and me from the UK , only to have to fly back out to respective countries alone without each other, which has been heartbreaking and emotional torture for both of us. I hope in the end this will all work out, I don't want to move.to Pakistan, but I might have to.

[SRAQAI]

Sorry to revitalise a new thread.

As you know, our French expedition didn't work and my Pakistani husband had to return to pakistan and me back to London. I still need to travel frequently between Paris and Belgium and London .... At least 2-3 times a month because I source supplies for my business in both Brussels and Paris. Can I use both metock and carpenter to bring my husband on an eea family permit directly from pakistan to the UK, bypassing his need to live in an EU state as per metock,?

Thanks

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

As far as I understand matters, it is the UK's interpretation of Singh that requires a UK citizen to have worked (or be self-employed) while living with their spouse in another EU state in order to have avail of the rights given.

If this is the case, then this applies whether French residence card was applied for and received or not.

I'm not sure why Metock might be relevant to your case (other than it has disabled previous UK attempt to use prior lawful residence in an EU state, which is now long gone).

[SRAQAI]

As far as I understand matters, it is the UK's interpretation of Singh that requires a UK citizen to have worked (or be self-employed) while living with their spouse in another EU state in order to have avail of the rights given.

If this is the case, then this applies whether French residence card was applied for and received or not.

I'm not sure why Metock might be relevant to your case (other than it has disabled previous UK attempt to use prior lawful residence in an EU state, which is now long gone).

This is it. Under metock case, if I understand it correctly, non eu citizen wouldn't need to have lived in the EU, in order to join eu spouse in a host state. But I am not sure where Singh would stand, because it requires the non eu citizen to have lived in the eu host state before the UK citizen returns to the UK. Metock applies when for instance when an Italian comes to the UK and wants to bring their non eu spouse with them - I think. There are 3 cases that cud apply to me - metock, carpenter (because of my frequent business travel to eu) and possibly zambrano, not because I have children, but because the judgement was.that the union citizen didn't need to move to another eu member state in order for the directive to apply to the non eu family member. I know that this was a case of minors and their non eu parents, but the case was looked at in the light of the children being eu citizens and how their freedoms and rights as eu citizens wd be restricted if it meant that they had to move to a non eu country , if the parents status couldn't be regularized.

[SRAQAI]

The UK interpretation is that, say for example in France, your spouse must have lived with you for you to be able to sponsor him, not that this is correct, if ever judicially challenged it would be a lost case for the UKBA right from the start.

I do not think you could avail of the Zambrano ruling, yes you may qualify under carpenter also

Problem is, I'm willing to keep my business on 'hold' for a few months, to work in Europe, either flipping burgers in Germany or Ireland now. Ireland was a contender, but then there are reports of Irish leaving the country in masses towards the UK and America, Canada etc in order to find work, because the economic situation is so dire there. Problem with the rest of Europe, one cannot even go and flip burgers in a German McDonald's, without German. The availability of jobs for English language speakers in eu is very limited, and Europeans are coming to the UK in droves in search of work. Without the language, I would be in a worse off position then natives who are leaving due to lack of jobs in their home country.