EEA3/4 form-time spend outside UK

[lmuee08]

Hi guys,

I've been 'ghosting' on the forum for quite a while and learnt a lot of useful stuff. Drill through all the posts, didn't really find someone having this problem like I do.

I am in the middle of filling the forms, where requires to list time dates and length of period spend outside of UK.

Just want to find out does it have to include holidays/business travel? We travel amost once a month to Germany for weekend trip (where my eea partner is from) to visit his parents. That means we made at least 12*5=60 trips in past 5 years. Do I have to list all of them.

He also works as counsultant and occassionaly travel to work with clients for 1 or 2 weeks, such as in France, Holland, Germany, US, etc.

Add to all , we also travel long haul holidays a few times in past 5 years.

I can track some of them above by looking for business emails, holiday/flight bookings. But some of them, especially for those frequent weekend trips, I am kind of lose track. just like, get bored in the weekend, in-law's birthdays, relative's wedding, family parties, etc, etc.

Just wonder does anyone have the same issue? How important and accurate this information has to be?

Thanks everyone in advance!!!

[seputus]

imuee08 - I was kind of in the same position as you. I've recently applied for EEA3/EEA4 and am also a very avid traveller for personal and business reasons.

I would say the information is very important since it's used to determine if you're eligible for permanent residence, and yes - you must list all of the trips you've taken.

For this reason, I started documenting my days abroad about a month before I actually had to submit my application. Since I book 99% of my travel through the internet (whether for business or pleasure) this was relatively easy, albeit time consuming.

In the end I had to attach two separate pages to my application to list all of the countries abroad.

For any trip that you cannot remember, your passport could be a good indication of departures/arrivals. Yes, your passport should never be legally stamped since you're the family member of an EEA national, but in my ~50 trips in the past 5 years, I only had my passport NOT stamped *ONCE*!

Good luck!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

This is a recent addition to the forms. As long as you did not stay out of the country for more than six months in any consecutive twelve month period, then residence is not broken (there are exceptions, I'm just talking about the general case).

If you wish, list everything down as they ask for. If you prefer, write a covering letter explaining that you cannot possibly remember every little holiday or business trip that you had in the last five years, but you did not break residence. Unless one was counting things for tax purposes or only went once or twice in the last five years, then it is unlikely that one would remember every detail.

Now the UK cannot count every one in and every one out in any case. It would be difficult for them to prove that you do not qualify.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If this ended up in a court case, it would be up to UKBA to prove that a person was outside the country for longer than the required time. If you have not been, then they won't be able to prove it.

They are very quick to argue that it's not up to them to prove an applicant's case (for example where a spouse's tax records would help an appellant's case).

[Plum70]

My husband was in this same position over the weekend, looking for all his departure and arrival dates... had to ask me for some, his parents and lastly his (somewhat unreliable memory!). in the end he got all of it!

Yes, it can be a chore getting all the dates together esp. if a frequent traveller. Still, needs doing.

[Obie]

If this ended up in a court case, it would be up to UKBA to prove that a person was outside the country for longer than the required time. If you have not been, then they won't be able to prove it.

They are very quick to argue that it's not up to them to prove an applicant's case (for example where a spouse's tax records would help an appellant's case).

I am not quite sure this is correct. The burden is on the applicant to prove they qualify for PR, or any other category they applied under. Once they have provided evidence to discharge this burden, the burden then falls on the Secretary of State , if he or she believe the evidence they provided was fraudulently obtained, or there were misleading material facts. In those circumstances, the secretary of state will be expected to discharge the burden.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Remember that the form is not mandatory. It does not have to be used for a successful application. I believe the travel question is relatively new and was not there before. If so, people were getting PR without answering this.

While the directive is explicit as to what documents are required for residence certificates and cards, it is less so for permanent residence cards. That does not mean that UKBA can ask for whatever they like. It would be reasonable for them to request the same information that is asked for cards and certificates plus evidence that the applicant lived in the member state for the required time - where they went on their hols in my view is going too far.

I never advocate telling an untruth, so if someone broke their residence, they should not apply until they have achieved it.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Mrs Plum, with all due respect; just because it says so on the form does not mean that the needful must actually be done. Happy Diwali.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

On the VAF5 (for EEA family permit) and other forms; the EEA's salary is asked for. It could be argued that this is relevant in order to check that the employment is genuine and effective, but it is not mandatory. I for one can confirm that this was left blank on a successful family permit application.

The analogy can be extended to other situations.

[Plum70]

Mrs Plum, with all due respect; just because it says so on the form does not mean that the needful must actually be done. Happy Diwali.

"It needs doing" as proof that one meets the residence qualifying criteria. I do not believe that the UKBA keeps tabs of a EU/EEA/EFTA national's exit and entry dates...is the onus therefore not on the applicant to confirm that they qualify? It just makes for a smooth-er process, won't you agree?
Merry Christmas!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Hi Plum; I agree completely that if you want a smooth ride and no hassle, just give them what they ask for, but you don't have to.

You're right that the UK does not record every possible entry or exit. Even if they did, it would be possible to exit and enter without them knowing (and I'm not talking about any illegal entry).

There is a serious point at issue here, one might not remember. The average person may not remember precisely when they were in and out of the country, especially for short trips. It takes a lot to be absent for more than six months at a time.

I would say that a simple statement that one was not absent should be sufficient. If the state were able to demonstrate that this was not true, then they could impose proportionate sanctions perhaps.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I would also point out that for the permanent residence form, they ask for criminal convictions, etc, but then go on to say that one does not have to answer.

What did the OP decide to do?

[Plum70]

Hi Plum; I agree completely that if you want a smooth ride and no hassle, just give them what they ask for, but you don't have to.

You're right that the UK does not record every possible entry or exit. Even if they did, it would be possible to exit and enter without them knowing (and I'm not talking about any illegal entry).

There is a serious point at issue here, one might not remember. The average person may not remember precisely when they were in and out of the country, especially for short trips. It takes a lot to be absent for more than six months at a time.

I would say that a simple statement that one was not absent should be sufficient. If the state were able to demonstrate that this was not true, then they could impose proportionate sanctions perhaps.

I havent come across an applicant who has effectively left it to the UKBA to prove that their absences haven't exceeded 6 months, but I see your point (s). I wonder what format other member states use to confirm PR and whether it is a more simplified process). Anyone?

[seputus]

I think a point to remember is that, from reading this forum for awhile, the UKBA needs *half* a reason to refuse you and so you don't want to not tell them what they want to know, or give them what they don't need to know. I'm reminded of multiple stories where the treaty rights offered consisted of working full/part time for 5 years, but they also volunteered the fact that they went to university too but - oh - no CSI - so they were refused.

Point being if you make a concerted effort to show them you do qualify, you should be fine. Forgetting to include a trip abroad which is clearly stamped on your passport would be unwise IMO.

Likewise, I think criminal convictions should be disclosed - as it is relevant because PR can be refused on the basis of public policy. A traffic violation is unlikely to be a red flag, but lying about manslaughter is another thing. ( )

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I'm pretty convinced that the part asking about absences is relatively new. Someone may correct me if I'm wrong.

Slightly different point; it is interesting that for the EU national only they state that not completing the section on character / convictions will not affect the application.

Unless one is traveling outside the EU there should be no stamps on anyone's passports.

[seputus]

I don't know the legality of an EU member state that you are not resident in stamping your passport. But of my 50 trips, upon my return to the UK, my passport was illegally stamped 49 times.

[lmuee08]

This is something interesting to find out acutally.

They have stopped stamping on my passport since last year or maybe earlier than that. I was abel to go through the EU/UK passport gate even travelling on my own with my RC sticker. In the recent trip to Germany, even the German people weren't bother to put the stamp on. So I wasn't sure was it meant to be like this, or because I have been a EU family member for so long.

Anyway BIG thanks for everyone. Thanks so much for your input on my question. I think I will just dig out any possible trace for all the trips made in past five years and do as much as can.

I'll keep everyone posted with my application progress.

[pinkpanter]

This is something interesting to find out acutally.

They have stopped stamping on my passport since last year or maybe earlier than that. I was abel to go through the EU/UK passport gate even travelling on my own with my RC sticker. In the recent trip to Germany, even the German people weren't bother to put the stamp on. So I wasn't sure was it meant to be like this, or because I have been a EU family member for so long.

Anyway BIG thanks for everyone. Thanks so much for your input on my question. I think I will just dig out any possible trace for all the trips made in past five years and do as much as can.

I'll keep everyone posted with my application progress

When my wife was applying last month EEA3, we asked from the UKBA adviser whether this section is necessary to be filled as we dont remember some of the travelling dates. The adviser advice us that you can filled as much information as possible and cover any details on covering letter. This section will not affect your application as you would also provide other supporting documentation to support your 5 yrs continues period.

You can dig out your emails for airticket booking confirmations etc.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Hi guys,

I've been 'ghosting' on the forum for quite a while and learnt a lot of useful stuff. Drill through all the posts, didn't really find someone having this problem like I do.

I am in the middle of filling the forms, where requires to list time dates and length of period spend outside of UK.

Just want to find out does it have to include holidays/business travel? We travel amost once a month to Germany for weekend trip (where my eea partner is from) to visit his parents. That means we made at least 12*5=60 trips in past 5 years. Do I have to list all of them.

He also works as counsultant and occassionaly travel to work with clients for 1 or 2 weeks, such as in France, Holland, Germany, US, etc.

Add to all , we also travel long haul holidays a few times in past 5 years.

I can track some of them above by looking for business emails, holiday/flight bookings. But some of them, especially for those frequent weekend trips, I am kind of lose track. just like, get bored in the weekend, in-law's birthdays, relative's wedding, family parties, etc, etc.

Just wonder does anyone have the same issue? How important and accurate this information has to be?

Thanks everyone in advance!!!

I can confirm that one does not need to provide this.

[fysicus]

Can you imagine an applicant who lives in Northern Ireland, and crosses the Irish border (where there are no checks whatsoever) once a week or may be even more often??

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Can you imagine an applicant who lives in Northern Ireland, and crosses the Irish border (where there are no checks whatsoever) once a week or may be even more often??

Agree, one needs to understand that the forms are not mandatory and that whatever is requested over and above the minimum required to prove rights is not required.

[bangash]

THIS IS WHAT MY SITUATION IS, I AM IN THE PROCESS OF SUBMITTING MY eea4 AND MY PARTNER IS IRISH AND HE GOES SO MANY TIMES ON WEEKEND AND IT WILL BE REALLY PAIN IN THE mule TO FILL ALL THIS AND I HARDLY REMEMBER ALL OF THEM, BUT NOT ONCE HE BEEN OUT OF THIS COUNTRY FOR MORE THEN 10 DAYS.

GOD HELP ME, I SUPPOSE I HAVE TO WRITE A COVERING LETTER TO PUT ALL DETAILS.