New Bulgaria / Romania - self-emplyed question .

[2uk]

According to the rules a national of Bulgaria and Romania can freely come to UK after 1 Jan and set himself in Business. ( Say under a Limited Company )

Only after that he is required to obtain a Registration Certificate using the BR1 Form.

Is that Correct ?

[John]

Personally I find this a very interesting question and I have done quite a bit of digging around on the internet to come up with a good idea of what is going on here. I felt the need to do that because I feel that the guidance on the IND website and the www.workingintheUK.gov.uk is not exactly as useful as it could be.

Simply, what exactly does "Self-Employed" mean, under the terms of the EU legislation? The words Self-Employed are used extensively in the new documentation but with no explanation of meaning.

Accordingly digging on the internet has produced the relevant extracts from the EU Treaty, as revised over the years. In Article III-22 it states :-

Nationals of a Member State shall have the right, in the territory of another Member State, to take up and pursue activities as self-employed persons and to set up and manage undertakings, in particular companies or firms within the meaning of the second paragraph of Article III-27, under the conditions laid down for its own nationals by the law of the Member State where such establishment is effected, subject to the provisions of the Section relating to capital.

-: and given that Article III-27 is mentioned, that states :-

"Companies or firms" means companies or firms constituted under civil or commercial law, including cooperative societies, and other legal persons governed by public or private law, save for those which are non-profit-making.

So yes, whilst not at all clear from the UK guidance recently issued, being Self-Employed means not just (truly) operating a business as a Sole Proprietor, or as a partner in a partnership, but also operating through a Limited Company that has been set up and is owned by the person concerned.

The EU Treaty clearly defines the right to operate through a Limited Company, even though the person drafting the BR1 application form seems to have overlooked that possibility ... it fails for example to ask for Company Registration number .... and even though, for tax purposes, the person will be employed by the Limited Company that has been set up and is owned by them.

Thus given the definition of Self-Employed in the EU Treaty I think it is clear that such Limited Company is not committing a criminal offence "employing" the person who has set up and is operating their business through the auspices of that company.

So 2UK you ask about the form BR1 and does that need to be completed before the person can start to be Self-Employed in the UK on or after 01.01.07? Download this PDF file and then look at the very bottom of page 9 of 16. I think it is clear that registration is not compulsory but it might be helpful. However the person drafting the BR1 form seems to assume that the business is already in existence when they ask for bank statements etc of that business. Clearly a business not yet started will not yet have such documents. So I think, in practical terms, you need to get the Limited Company formed, to get its bank account opened, to have registered with the tax authorities as necessary, and to have started operating the business, before attempting to complete and submit a form BR1.

Have a safe journey to the UK next year .... and hope your business goes well.

Some useful links on this IND webpage, including to documents in Bulgarian and Romanian.

[2uk]

Thanks for confirming this, i think i should call them for 100 % though.

Reading the rules made me experience a heart-attack level disappointment and the most joyful moment of my dealings with the UK immigration laws.

I want to be an IT contractor UK. They operate under a Limited Company. As it seems with the new rules it is totally legal to start business before dealing with immgr. authorities. This has been the single barrier to IT contractors from Visa countries. Cos most of the jobs are ASAP. And UK immigration processing has not been ASAP. Because of this also the Work Permit scheme hadn’t work . Except for Indians. ( I am not sure why , maybe because of their High-tech-knowledge image ) .

After Jan 1st , it will be a lot easier to start Business in UK ( for BGs and ROs ) since you no longer need to present the Business plan that had to be drafted under the EEA Association agreement rules.

It is well-known that system has been exploited somehow. I know people that have done. They are illegal. I don’t know how they did it. Only thing I know is that they used to draft a business plan – go to UK – pretend to be operating in the business ( paying some taxes ) – but working as employed someplace.

Now , under the new rules , you don’t need to draft a business plan cos u are eligible to start business immediately . I wonder if this will be exploited again.

Please God forbid UK removing the Self-employment right in the future , because ppl find someway to exploit the system. I ve always thought that the only thing UK achieved in the last 5 years is attracting illegal immigrants. ( except for Indian techies )

And now , on top of everything, all these illegal immigrants get to stay and work for free in the UK ( after 1st Jan ) , as long as they spent 1year “illegally” in the UK.

[first2last4]

Because of this also the Work Permit scheme hadn’t work . Except for Indians. ( I am not sure why , maybe because of their High-tech-knowledge image ) .

It not the image.... Its the reality.

[John]

Please God forbid UK removing the Self-employment right in the future

I could not possibly comment about God doing that, but under the terms of the Treaty of Accession it seems that A2 nationals have a right to exercise certain Treaty Rights as from 01.01.07, such as being a Student, being a Person of Independent Means ... and being Self-Employed!

So I don't think the UK has the right to withdraw rights from the self-employed.

Thanks for confirming this, i think i should call them for 100 % though.

Up to you but given the inadequacy of the guidance notes issued to date I certainly would not rely upon any verbal statement you get.

Seriously, there it is in black and white, no need for the Self-Employed to complete a form BR1 before starting Self-Employment ... page 9 of 16 of the document previously referred to.

[2uk]

[quote="first2last4"][quote="2uk"]
Because of this also the Work Permit scheme hadn’t work . Except for Indians. ( I am not sure why , maybe because of their High-tech-knowledge image ) .
[/quote]

It not the image.... Its the reality.[/quote]

So how do they ( indians ) find work ?

Variant 1: Personally Search for a job at a job site , get the job , get a work permit and start work. ( I would certainly want to talk to one of these )

Varian 2: Sign with an agency that deals with everything - finding work , arranging permits etc. There are established "channles" for ppl to get a job in UK.

[first2last4]

Because of this also the Work Permit scheme hadn’t work . Except for Indians. ( I am not sure why , maybe because of their High-tech-knowledge image ) .

It not the image.... Its the reality.

So how do they ( indians ) find work ?

Variant 1: Personally Search for a job at a job site , get the job , get a work permit and start work. ( I would certainly want to talk to one of these )

Varian 2: Sign with an agency that deals with everything - finding work , arranging permits etc. There are established "channles" for ppl to get a job in UK.

Getting a job using the job site is very very rare simply because no one is ready to file the WP directly for indian not in UK.
Majority of the Indian enter UK through WP (mostly as an intra company transfer) filed through the Indian company whome they work for.
Others use the HSMP route and very very few WHM.

[2uk]

That s what i am talkin about. There are set schemes that help them migrate. Forget the story if you are on your own. Took me 5 years to realize it. And now it doesnt matter.

[simar]

That s what i am talkin about. There are set schemes that help them migrate. Forget the story if you are on your own. Took me 5 years to realize it. And now it doesnt matter.

Do not crip on indians. I persoanlly known romanians on work permit in uk. They are good IT chaps( in nokia I know)
Come flex your guts on IT contactor jobs. We indian love the challange.

[first2last4]

There are set schemes that help them migrate.

FYI, This set scheme is not only for Indians but open to all. And my answer to your question about how so many Indian's are in was because they are actually talented.

[2uk]

Sorry guys , no offence. I am coming next year :) Maybe... need to see what the TAXes will be like and check some Cost of living Guides ( Do you have any ? )

And yes I will be doing contract jobs.