Renouncing British Citizenship for EEA2 application

rsm5574 · Post by **rsm5574** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:45 am

Hello

Hope someone can give me some advice. Myself (UK and Irish Passport) and my girlfriend (Malaysian, student visa runs out mid Oct) are getting married next month and we where planning on applying for a residence card for her. However I understand today that changes have been made to this policy and I no longer can apply because I hold a UK passport and Irish.

Basically what I would like to know is if I renounce my UK passport would this be a way around this and if so what would the consequences be to me in the future.

Also, I am a student but still earn 500 pounds per month...is this enough to claim treaty rights?

Thanks in advance

Richard

keffers · Post by **keffers** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:38 pm

Its an extreme measure to take but understandable. Because of the special status of Irish citizens in the UK, the practical effects on you personally I think would be minimal.

However, I would try and find out what the consequencies will be if you get married while you still have British citizenship.

I think you can re-apply for British citizenship just the one time.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... tizenship/

tanabrennan · Post by **tanabrennan** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:31 pm

rsm5574 wrote:Hello

Hope someone can give me some advice. Myself (UK and Irish Passport) and my girlfriend (Malaysian, student visa runs out mid Oct) are getting married next month and we where planning on applying for a residence card for her. However I understand today that changes have been made to this policy and I no longer can apply because I hold a UK passport and Irish.

Basically what I would like to know is if I renounce my UK passport would this be a way around this and if so what would the consequences be to me in the future.

Also, I am a student but still earn 500 pounds per month...is this enough to claim treaty rights?

Thanks in advance

Richard

There is no difference in a british and irish passport in UK, most especially in northern ireland. The top second minister of northern ireland is irish and he hold only irish passport, he is a senn fein, a nationalist and most many hold irish passport even though they are born in uk. So no worries, go for it.

tanabrennan · Post by **tanabrennan** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:47 pm

As far as i know, law is law, this law is recognised in EU and the rest of the world which recognise the peace process between ireland and uk. I dont know of any others situation but if you are born in northern ireland under good friday agreement, you can chose.
1. To be an irish
2. To be a british
3. To be both, irish and british
So what ever you chose still work for you as a recognised law that cannot be change by irish or british for now.
As a citizen born in norther ireland, the UK government cannot force british on you because you have right to chose but i dont know of any other person born outside NI. I know you can renounce and it has no effect as an irish, bcus automatic an irish in uk are considered permanent resident, in northern ireland are considenr a citizen with right to hold a ministerial post to the overall head of any government position in United Kingdom of British and Northern Ireland.

lolo82 · Post by **lolo82** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:22 pm

I'm curious as to where the OP was born. It's easy to assume NI but confirmation would be best to give the best advice. (Just to rule out any mccarthy-like issues)

Post by **Jambo** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:51 pm

His place of birth doesn't really matter any more. With the new rules British dual national can't make use of their other EEA nationality. He has a British passport so he can't claim he is only Irish

rsm5574 · Post by **rsm5574** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:12 am

Thankyou all for your replies. I was born in Northern Ireland and until recently only held a British passport. I got the Irish one for the purposes of applying for this residence card and now it seems i need to give up my UK passport for this to work.

Can someone also answer the second part of my query?

Thanks

tanabrennan · Post by **tanabrennan** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:50 pm

rsm5574 wrote:Thankyou all for your replies. I was born in Northern Ireland and until recently only held a British passport. I got the Irish one for the purposes of applying for this residence card and now it seems i need to give up my UK passport for this to work.

Can someone also answer the second part of my query?

Thanks

If you are from northern ireland you should know better and why the trouble there that came about the resolution of belfast or good friday aggreement. Many in northern ireland dont want to be called british and they hold only only irish passport. Talk to your lawyer and exercise your right as a irish citizen from north. The law say the cannot force british citizen on you so if you had already hold british passport the only way round is to surrender it, but if you hold only irish passport only that makes no different. The law in the agreement says specifically, the uk government cannot force irish citizenship on you, you have right to chose.

smalldog · Post by **smalldog** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:52 pm

Being a student is sufficient exercise of treaty rights.

The redefinition of an EEA national to exclude dual nationals doesn't take effect until 16 October and there are transitional arrangements to allow those who have applied under the EEA rules to continue to use them, so as long as you get your application in before 16 October I don't think you need to renounce your British citizenship. I'd would leave that as an option of last resort.

rsm5574 · Post by **rsm5574** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:27 pm

Im pretty sure the changes came into effect on 16th July 2012

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... a-regs.pdf

Can someone confirm that please...thanks

tanabrennan · Post by **tanabrennan** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:30 pm

Many people in uk do not know the power that found northern ireland, the republic of ireland still believe the north is their land. Many north citizen also do not know the power they have, talk to your mp, i mean the irish mp in NI, they will tell you. As a born citizen of NI. You have right to chose by law governing UK and Ireland, citizenship cannot be forced on you by UK,

Post by **Jambo** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:40 pm

rsm5574 wrote:Im pretty sure the changes came into effect on 16th July 2012

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... a-regs.pdf

Can someone confirm that please...thanks

The changes came into effect on 16th July with transitional arrangements until the 16th October (see schedule 3). However, as you are not married yet, you don't fall within the transitional arrangements as they require the family member to have a right to reside in the United Kingdom under the 2006 Regulations on 16th July. Your girlfriend doesn't have such a right until the HO checks the relationship and issue a document under the regulations.

Post by **Jambo** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:41 pm

tanabrennan wrote:Many people in uk do not know the power that found northern ireland, the republic of ireland still believe the north is their land. Many north citizen also do not know the power they have, talk to your mp, i mean the irish mp in NI, they will tell you. As a born citizen of NI. You have right to chose by law governing UK and Ireland, citizenship cannot be forced on you by UK,

Surely he wasn't forced by the UK as he chose to apply for a UK passport (the Irish passport was applied for recently).

Post by **Obie** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:49 pm

OP i wondered if you have lived in any EU country other than the UK, and exercised treaty rights there? if you have, then you have a strong case against the legality of the regulation in your case. I can envisage cases were that regulation will clearly be unlawful

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:58 pm

tanabrennan wrote:If you are from northern ireland you should know better and why the trouble there that came about the resolution of belfast or good friday aggreement. Many in northern ireland dont want to be called british and they hold only only irish passport. Talk to your lawyer and exercise your right as a irish citizen from north. The law say the cannot force british citizen on you so if you had already hold british passport the only way round is to surrender it, but if you hold only irish passport only that makes no different. The law in the agreement says specifically, the uk government cannot force irish citizenship on you, you have right to chose.

Jesus, Mary and the seven dwarfs. What a load of tripe. Not choosing to apply for a British passport, which is merely a travel document, does not cause a person who was born a British citizen otherwise than by decent to cease to be so.

This is contrary, of course, to Irish nationality law which states that a person is not born an Irish citizen, but is born with an entitlement to be an Irish citizen - ratified only if the person carries out an action which only an Irish citizen may do, such as to apply for an Irish passport, for example.

Surrendering a British passport does not cause the holder to cease to be a British citizen. Renunciation of citizenship is required for that. Subsequent resumption of same can occur only once.

tanabrennan wrote:the republic of ireland still believe the north is their land.

Not since 1999. Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution were amended. Perhaps you didn't get the memo.

Richard - so long as you are genuinely employed, you are considered a worker for the purpose of the EEA regs.

Renouncing your British citizenship is big step. It also costs money. Betul ke, girlfriend awak suruh you buat macam gitu? Dia bangsa apa?

McCarthy failed because there was no physical movement. If the same applies to you, your application may fail for the same reason. The difference in your case is that you are choosing to renounce citizenship in order to attempt to position yourself as a qualified person in the UK for the purpose of the EEA regs. But if no physical movement occurs.. it may be a long, drawn out process and one for the ECJ to eventually decide. I hope she's worth it!

daddy · Post by **daddy** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:09 pm

Can someone pls clearify this . Following the recent EEA Regulation 2012, does it mean that a British national cannot make use of Suringder singh rulling anymore, having lived and worked in another EU member state?

Pls clearify.
Thanks,
Daddy

smalldog · Post by **smalldog** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:14 am

Jambo wrote:
rsm5574 wrote:Im pretty sure the changes came into effect on 16th July 2012

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... a-regs.pdf

Can someone confirm that please...thanks
The changes came into effect on 16th July with transitional arrangements until the 16th October (see schedule 3). However, as you are not married yet, you don't fall within the transitional arrangements as they require the family member to have a right to reside in the United Kingdom under the 2006 Regulations on 16th July. Your girlfriend doesn't have such a right until the HO checks the relationship and issue a document under the regulations.

Hmm, you are correct there. I guess renunciation becomes a sensible option in this case then.

Post by **Jambo** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:20 am

daddy wrote:Can someone pls clearify this . Following the recent EEA Regulation 2012, does it mean that a British national cannot make use of Suringder singh rulling anymore, having lived and worked in another EU member state?

Pls clearify.
Thanks,
Daddy

No. Surinder Singh is still there. It is now even added as an option in the application forms (EEA1/EEA2/EEA3/EEA4). What was changed is the option of British dual nationals to make use of their other EEA nationality without exercising treaty rights in another EEA country.

daddy · Post by **daddy** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:44 am

Jambo wrote:
daddy wrote:Can someone pls clearify this . Following the recent EEA Regulation 2012, does it mean that a British national cannot make use of Suringder singh rulling anymore, having lived and worked in another EU member state?

Pls clearify.
Thanks,
Daddy
No. Surinder Singh is still there. It is now even added as an option in the application forms (EEA1/EEA2/EEA3/EEA4). What was changed is the option of British dual nationals to make use of their other EEA nationality without exercising treaty rights in another EEA country.

Thanks alot Jambo!

tanabrennan · Post by **tanabrennan** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:23 pm

Anyway, I invite people that say I am wrong to come for a visit in co. Derry, northern Ireland, when coming make sure you hold your British passport, wave it up immediately you enter the county, I bet you, you will return home with your head on your feet.
You don’t need a passport to show you were born an Irish in Northern Ireland; you are an Irish by law. United Kingdom cannot force British on you that are the law.

Annex H: Summary of the agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland, signed at Belfast, 10 April 1998

Two sovereign states: United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland, both members of EU.

Sovereignty: Future sovereignty of Northern Ireland (NI), i.e. participation in either UK or Republic of Ireland) to be determined by referendum of people of NI (this is now recognized in British law and Irish constitution). Right of the people of Northern Ireland to hold Irish or British passports or both is recognized.

The "birthright" of all the people of Northern Ireland "to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both", is also recognized, as well as their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship; and that these rights are not to be affected should Northern Ireland become a part of a united Ireland.

It said: Irish "OR" British

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement
http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/ggfa.htm
http://www.nio.gov.uk/index/faq/niofaq-political.htm

If you don’t know, learn, the EU law movement cannot change this as it is recognized by the EU. They cannot say you have not moved because northern and south are considered as the same in the eyes of Irish and many goes north and south everyday. Transport, work and many other things. Am from the North and I know what I am saying and have already discussed this long ago with the lawyers and barristers. If your non eea spouse want to nationalized as an Irish, he or she do not need to live in the south, from the north Ireland you are accepted as living in the republic of Ireland., you don’t need to live in the south to gain your Irish nationality as a spouse of an Irish and it is only 3yrs.

keffers · Post by **keffers** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:36 pm

What you cannot do is renounce EU citizenship - which effectively renders the decision to hold a Britsh or Irish passport virtually meaningless for all practical and nationalistic purposes.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:44 pm

Obie wrote:OP i wondered if you have lived in any EU country other than the UK, and exercised treaty rights there? if you have, then you have a strong case against the legality of the regulation in your case. I can envisage cases were that regulation will clearly be unlawful

This is a very important question, which has not been answered yet by the OP.

See also http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2012/07 ... y-british/

I agree that this part of the regulations is very likely illegal.

rsm5574 · Post by **rsm5574** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:22 pm

Thanks for the replies

unfortunately i have not worked in any other EU countries so can't go down that road. I have now spoken to my local MP who spoke to someone at the UKBA who said they would look into the consequences of renouncing. Woman from UKBA said the whole thing was a mine field so it seems they don't even know the in and outs of their own system.

One thing my MP seemed to think was that if i renounced i would loose NHS and need to get private healthcare to apply for resident card for my future wife. This doesn't sound right but i wouldn't put anything past them. She also said that she used to be able to phone up UKBA and get advice quite easily but now they tell everyone to hire emigration lawyers to sort it out.

Anyone no anything about this.

easy77 · Post by **easy77** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:01 pm

i don't think you would lose NHS as an irish citizen/eu citizen if you renounce your british citizenship, all eu citizens get NHS sevices except if they are self sufficient or a student then you will need comprehensive sickness insurance. you said u are a student and you work and earn £500/month which is like part time work, so you do not need health insurance for your application.

easy77 · Post by **easy77** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:12 pm

This is quite an interesting discussion. can i get some clarification on this dual citizenship in northern ireland(NI), if a british national goes up to NI to work or school and gives birth to a child there, is this child entitled to be an irish citizen as well as a british citizen.

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