Islamic Marriage in Morocco recognised under UK Law?

[alienated]

I am a British Citizen who has married a Moroccan national under Islamic Law (only possibility in Morocco). This is a process for which the British Consulate provides several required pieces of documentation - Certificate of nationality, Certificate of non-objection and Declaration of Honour.

I cannot find sufficient information to confirm, either way, whether our marriage is legitimate under UK law (insofar as my wife has rights to apply for a UK Settlement Visa)

Even though settlement is not the immediate plan, we have just married so this is really the time to focus on the matter !

[John]

I don't know the direct answer to your question but I know the principle that will be applied.

Under the terms of the UK's Foreign Marriages Act 1892 the UK will recognise a marriage that happened outside the UK if it is recognised as a legal marriage in the country in which it takes place.

Accordingly, turning this back on you, does Morocco recognise the marriage as legally valid? If the answer to that is "yes" then the UK will also recognise it as a legally valid marriage. However if Morocco does not recognise it as legally valid as a marriage, then no, the UK will not recognise it either.

Personally I got married in Thailand where a "mere" religious ceremony (whatever the religion) is not recognised as a legal marriage. In order to get legally married in Thailand it is necessary to register the marriage at an Amphur (Register Office). The same in Morocco?

[alienated]

It is the ONLY way to get married in Morocco and it is one hell of a process. If you are interested I will post the ordeal - not sure there is an appropriate forum for such torture!

So in answer to your question, it is a legal marriage in Morocco.

We do not have instant plans to settle in the UK however one must naturally establish such detail as, for example, after four years of marriage, she may directly apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain, should we wish to do so at that time. This would prove difficult if the authorities say - well, you are not actually married!

[ppron747]

You might like to ask the Embassy about depositing your Moroccan marriage certificate with the General Register Office - it doesn't affect the validity, but it might be useful in the future - it means that you can get further copies with GRO authentication in the future - probably a bit easier to convince UK authorities that you're married, rather than handing them an unfamiliar Arabic-language document. It's a service available under Article 7 of the Foreign Marriage Order.

You might also like to know that the provision for getting ILE after living as a married couple for four years outside UK will be withdrawn shortly, I'm afraid. Under new regulations coming into force in April (I think) everyone applying for settlement will have to pass the Life in UK test first, and they don't seem to have made arrangements for that to be taken overseas, and the provision will therefore be deleted from the Rules.

[alienated]

You might also like to know that the provision for getting ILE after living as a married couple for four years outside UK will be withdrawn shortly, I'm afraid. Under new regulations coming into force in April (I think) everyone applying for settlement will have to pass the Life in UK test first, and they don't seem to have made arrangements for that to be taken overseas, and the provision will therefore be deleted from the Rules

You state that "the provision will therefore be deleted from the rules". Is that the provision to apply for ILR from overseas (understood) or the provision that entitles a spouse of a UK citizen to directly seek ILR after 4 years of marriage? What happens for example if after 3 years of marriage one obtains a settlement visa for the UK, would one have to wait a further 1 year (to meet the 4yr marriage requirement) or further 2 years (to complete 2yrs of probation) before applying for ILR (and obviously taking this Citizenship Test)?

[ppron747]

AIUI, there isn't a four year requirement, except in relation to married couples who have lived together for four years outside UK.

So far as I know, the present position is that, if you have lived together outside UK for less than four years, you simply get the probationary two year visa which you convert to ILR shortly before it expires - after taking the "Life" test, from April. I don't think they credit you with "time served" overseas.

But I don't profess to be an expert, and I'd be grateful if others would chip in if I'm wrong on this.

[John]

It is very clear that as from April 2007 there will be no ability to get ILR ... well actually ILE .... issued outside the UK. That ability gets abolished at the same time as it is necessary to pass the Citizenship Test to get ILR in the UK.

So even where, exceptionally, someone bothered to pass the Citizenship Test before making their outside-the-UK application, they would still not get ILE issued.

The ability to get ILE issued outside was only introduced on 01.04.03, when spouse visas moved from one year to two years, and is now getting abolished just 4 years later.

[John]

probably a bit easier to convince UK authorities that you're married, rather than handing them an unfamiliar Arabic-language document

In order to get the spouse visa it is essential that the Arabic marriage certificate be translated into English, and the translation certified. So actually when arriving in the UK you will have not just the original Arabic marriage certificate but also a certified English translation.

As long as you use those documents together, and never just one of them alone, you should have no problem proving that the marriage exists.

My wife and I married in Thailand and thus our marriage certificate is in Thai. In practice we have encountered absolutely no problem proving the validity of the marriage in the UK. Paying that fee and getting a British-style marriage certificate was, in our opinion, unnecessary and a waste of money.

However Paul, as you rightly say, it is possible to go down that route. Do accept, dougalzene, that if an application is made that you permanently lose possession of the Arabic marriage certificate that will be submitted with the translation.

[ppron747]

The other benefit offered by Article 7 is that you can always get further copies from the GRO. IMO, whether to do it depends on how likely you are to lose the original document, and how confident you are that you'll be able to obtain further copies from the original issuing office, from several thousand miles away...

How stupid your building society, bank, local authority, etc are could also be a factor. I have heard of a number of instances of such authorities giving difficulties over US and Canadian marriage certificates, let alone Moroccan ones.... Soluble difficulties, but not without some stress.

Whatever you decide, it would be a sensible precaution to get a couple of spare certified copies of your marriage certificate while you're still in Morocco and it's still fresh in your mind...

[alienated]

Thanks to you both for your comments. Together with a parallel enquiry to the GRO, it would appear so. I quote below the email reply from the GRO Overseas department

For anyone reading this take particular note with regard to deposit of documents in that it must be the original or a certified copy provided by the original issuer - so in my case I must give the original document or go to the issuing court to obtain a certified copy. As far as my original question goes, the last paragraph says what John said - so effectively it is recognised but only an appropriate court could decide that, if it were disputed.

There is no provision or legal requirement in British law for a marriage of
British citizens overseas to be registered in this country. Your original
marriage documents together with a translation, if necessary, can however
be deposited with the records of this Office. This facility is only a
means of readily obtaining further copies of the documents. You then need
only apply to this Office instead of the authorities overseas. Only the
party to the marriage who is a British national can apply for the deposit
and only the Consul for the district where the marriage took place may send
the documents to this Office.

If you wish to apply for the deposit you should contact the:

Foreign and Commonwealth Office,
Consular Division,
Old Admiralty Building
London
SW1A 2AF

Tel: 020 7008 0186 (between 10.00am to 12 noon only),
Email : bmdenquiries@fco.gov.uk

Or alternatively the British Consul in Morocco.
The documents can be deposited at any time after the marriage, there is no
time limit but they must be originals. Photocopies are only acceptable if
they are certified by the issuing authorities. Once deposited here the
documents cannot be released from the Registrar General's custody.
A note is also made in the indexes to the records held at this Office for
research and certificate application purposes.
When an application for copies is made you will receive certified
photocopies of the documents sent to this Office by the Consul. You will
not receive a British style certificate. The photocopies are issued under
the seal of this Office and are usually acceptable as evidence as if they
were certificates issued by the authorities of the country where the
marriage took place.

It is not within the province of the Registrar General to pronounce on the
legal issues of any marriage, that is a matter for a court of competent
jurisdiction. However generally speaking, provided that the marriage is
contracted according to the laws of the country/state where the marriage
took place and is considered to be valid in that state then there is no
reason to suspect that it would not be valid in the UK.

[John]

..... so effectively it is recognised but only an appropriate court could decide that, if it were disputed

Yes, but why would it be disputed? In practice only if it becomes an issue for example in a disputed divorce proceeding in the UK, where a UK Court might be asked to rule upon whether the couple are married at all ..... as they needed to in the now famous case involving Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall ... who only entered into a religious ceremony in Indonesia ... and in that country a "mere" religious ceremony is not a legal marriage at all ... thus under the terms of the Foreign Marriages Act 1892 the UK did not recognise them as married.

I reiterate that we have encountered absolutely no problem at all in the UK using our original Thai marriage certificate together with a certified translation into English. That includes getting Schengen visas issued for free from the French Consulate in London, my wife getting a UK NINO, opening a bank account, taking out life insurance, getting ILR in the UK, and even getting Naturalised a British.

[ppron747]

And I iterate that £23.50 isn't a bad premium to pay for the assurance of always being able to get a copy of a marriage certificate from within the UK. And I say this having had the experience of having to comfort people who were unable to wind up a deceased parent's estate because they couldn't locate said marriage certificate...

[John]

Plus, it seems, the additional cost of getting a certified translation. For example this webpage from the British Embassy Bangkok website mentions not only a fee of 1763 baht but also an additional fee of 2625 baht payable when the translator goes to the embassy to swear their oath. The total of those 2 figures, 4388 baht, currently equating to about £63.

I cannot spot a comparable webpage on the website of the British Embassy in Rabat, or indeed anything about getting married in Morocco, probably borne out by the experience of Dougalzene ... maybe they just don't expect British Citizens to go down that route and get married in Morocco?

[ppron747]

But as you indicated earlier, a translation is needed whether you use Article 7 or not, so the cost of it is hardly an additional expense. I note that the fee is for "Transmitting a record of a marriage under the local law to the appropriate Registrar General in accordance with Article 7(1) of the Foreign Marriage Order 1970(a), including the provision of any necessary certification"

One can't help wondering whether the lack of information on the Rabat Embassy website is symptomatic of their general attitude, given the struggles we've both seen on another board....

[John]

But as you indicated earlier, a translation is needed whether you use Article 7 or not, so the cost of it is hardly an additional expense.

Actually not true, in the sense that no sworn translation ... the translator going to the embassy ... is required "merely" to get a visa. So that 2625 baht fee really is additional only if there is a decision to deposit the marriage certificate.

The British Embassy in Bangkok, as far as visa applications are concerned, is quite happy to proceed on the basis of a translation done by a translation bureau and bearing their own "Certified Translation" stamp. No question of a sworn statement being required.

So it seems that it is only the GRO that is insisting upon the sworn statement, adding noticeably to the overall cost.

[ppron747]

You missed the final seven words of my quote from the Consular Fees Order - as did, apparently, the British Embassy in Bangkok.

[alienated]

One can't help wondering whether the lack of information on the Rabat Embassy website is symptomatic of their general attitude, given the struggles we've both seen on another board....

Yes I had remarked the embassy webpage is light on info.

My only dealing thus far with the British authorities in Morocco has been at the British Consulate in Casablanca - nice green flowery location in a wealthy suburb of the smelly big city. The fortification makes it stand out though!

They were very good there - I went to get some required paperwork in the endurance process called 'getting authorised for marriage'. I arrived at 8.30, I filled out the form. They weren't sure whether the main madame would have time to take an oath for same-day processing but it turned out she did. A few pleasantries were exchanged, an oath was taken, and half an hour later they came out with the three bits of paper - Certificate of nationality, Certificate of non-objection and Declaration of Honour. All for the pricey/princely sum of approx. £110 - I think the British have caught an idea from Moroccan bureaucracy.

That said, and in line with my increasingly poor timing for getting married (along with the introduction of the CT/abolition of ILE after 4yrs), they are no longer processing visas in Casablanca - now one has to go that bit further to Rabat.

[ppron747]

....A few pleasantries were exchanged, an oath was taken, and half an hour later they came out with the three bits of paper - Certificate of nationality, Certificate of non-objection and Declaration of Honour. All for the pricey/princely sum of approx. £110 - I think the British have caught an idea from Moroccan bureaucracy....

To be fair, none of these things are actually required by the UK government - they're produced only because other governments want them.... The Foreign Office claims that their fees are calculated so as to reflect the cost of providing the service, so that the general tax-payer doesn't subsidise the cost of providing services overseas. I think this is generally the case - although of course the cost of producing three documents at once is almost certainly lower than producing them on three separate occasions, and they don't offer a "bulk purchase" option....

[alienated]

Yes, but why would it [marriage] be disputed?

John - I had missed this question, so, for the benefit of rounding off this topic....
My concerns arose from an OISC registered "visa specialist" who said, I quote
"If you and your partner are married under Islamic Law this is not recognised by the British authorities as legal marriage and would not entitle your partner to apply to travel to the UK on the basis of this marriage"

I had specified that the marriage took place in Morocco. My question was originally raised because I saw some form which said the that a marriage must be recognised under UK law and I naturally wished to be sure.

It is not my style to name and shame, particularly when free and otherwise correct advice was offered, but since that set off my concerns, and this topic, I would for the benefit of other readers's caution name the company/site should any moderator consider that to be appropriate.

[penanglad]

Before 1982 your marriage would have been void, as you are UK domiciled and your marriage was potentially polygamous, i.e. Islamic law allows you to take up to four wives. The law has now changed so that potentially polygamous marriages are valid as long as neither party was married at the time of the marriage. See http://uk.sitestat.com/homeoffice/ind/s ... iew=Binary