Appendix E VS Policy Guidance for dependant visa.

[sahi]

Hi everyone,
According to Immigration Rules of Appendix E regarding maintenance funds for dependant visa the main applicant just have to show £533 or £600 if the dependant is applying seprately and main applicant is in the uk for more than 12 months.

But according to the dependant policy guidance, the main applicant have to show funds for him/her self as well--£800 plus £533 for each dependant.
In my case me and my wife already got the visa and want to apply for child who is in abroad how much to show.
some people are saying i have to show just £533 and some saying £800+£533+£533.
Please correct me.
Guidance or the Rule????????????.
Thanks

[Lucapooka]

Applications (with regard to maintenance) are treated individually even though sometimes applications are made at the same time. Unfortunately the guidance tends to refer to situations where applications are being submitted together (although it does mention individual application if you know where to look). One application, one amount of maintenance. Each applicant has a provision for their maintenance and only if he/she is applying with or at the same time as the PBS migrant does the PBS migrant need to provide maintenance for himself also.

If you are applying for one child the maintenance is 533 (nothing more).

You and your wife are not making applications and are not asked to provide maintenance on that basis.

[varghesejim]

Applications (with regard to maintenance) are treated individually even though sometimes applications are made at the same time. Unfortunately the guidance tends to refer to situations where applications are being submitted together (although it does mention individual application if you know where to look). One application, one amount of maintenance. Each applicant has a provision for their maintenance and only if he/she is applying with or at the same time as the PBS migrant does the PBS migrant need to provide maintenance for himself also.

If you are applying for one child the maintenance is 533 (nothing more).

You and your wife are not making applications and are not asked to provide maintenance on that basis.

Nonsense.

The guidance is clear that regardless of whether you apply for one or all you need to have funds maintained for all of the family.

If you are applying for a newborn child when the couple have visa, it should still be 800+533+533.

Important: The guidance says the maintanence will be increased from 14 June 2012.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... licy11.pdf

[Greenie]

Applications (with regard to maintenance) are treated individually even though sometimes applications are made at the same time. Unfortunately the guidance tends to refer to situations where applications are being submitted together (although it does mention individual application if you know where to look). One application, one amount of maintenance. Each applicant has a provision for their maintenance and only if he/she is applying with or at the same time as the PBS migrant does the PBS migrant need to provide maintenance for himself also.

If you are applying for one child the maintenance is 533 (nothing more).

You and your wife are not making applications and are not asked to provide maintenance on that basis.

Nonsense.

The guidance is clear that regardless of whether you apply for one or all you need to have funds maintained for all of the family.

If you are applying for a newborn child when the couple have visa, it should still be 800+533+533.

Important: The guidance says the maintanence will be increased from 14 June 2012.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... licy11.pdf

the guidance is not the rules - an application refused on this basis would no be in accordance with the rules which do not state that funds for all family members who already have visas need to be shown.

[QuickSam]

"varghesejim"

Look before you leap. You are now questioning the understanding of the senior members.

I had written a completely different statement and have re-phrased it as I don't want to get banned from this forum.

[varghesejim]

Applications (with regard to maintenance) are treated individually even though sometimes applications are made at the same time. Unfortunately the guidance tends to refer to situations where applications are being submitted together (although it does mention individual application if you know where to look). One application, one amount of maintenance. Each applicant has a provision for their maintenance and only if he/she is applying with or at the same time as the PBS migrant does the PBS migrant need to provide maintenance for himself also.

If you are applying for one child the maintenance is 533 (nothing more).

You and your wife are not making applications and are not asked to provide maintenance on that basis.

Nonsense.

The guidance is clear that regardless of whether you apply for one or all you need to have funds maintained for all of the family.

If you are applying for a newborn child when the couple have visa, it should still be 800+533+533.

Important: The guidance says the maintanence will be increased from 14 June 2012.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... licy11.pdf

the guidance is not the rules - an application refused on this basis would no be in accordance with the rules which do not state that funds for all family members who already have visas need to be shown.

Where in the rule states if you apply for one dependant only one maintanence is required?

I have seen the rule which says if you apply together you need to show funds for all. Can we deduce another rule from this?

How can one applicant apply for his fifth child, maintaining 533 pounds and prove there is no recourse to public funds?

[Greenie]

the rules are here

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... appendixe/

they make no mention of migrants who already have their visa having to show funds for maintenance again.

[varghesejim]

the rules are here

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... appendixe/

they make no mention of migrants who already have their visa having to show funds for maintenance again.

Yes, I can see it is confusing.

I would not risk it still.

A person applying for a dependant wife and showing 533 pounds
A person with a five member family in UK applying for a kid showing 533 pounds.

Both are prooving no recourse to public funds. Do you see the problem?

[Greenie]

if the UKBA want the requirement to be that funds for all family members need to be shown regardless of whether they already have a visa, then they need to state this specifically in the rules. Stating it in the policy guidance is not sufficient, as was established in Pankina.

[varghesejim]

if the UKBA want the requirement to be that funds for all family members need to be shown regardless of whether they already have a visa, then they need to state this specifically in the rules. Stating it in the policy guidance is not sufficient, as was established in Pankina.

Thank you. So even if CW rejects it you can appeal successfully.

[jsamuel]

your understanding of 'recourse to public funds' is flawed. When you show the maintenance amount, you are just proving that you have the amount to sustain the dependant's expenses for a given time period. This does not however mean that you are not claiming public funds. Do you actually know what different types of public funds exist?

[varghesejim]

Applications (with regard to maintenance) are treated individually even though sometimes applications are made at the same time. Unfortunately the guidance tends to refer to situations where applications are being submitted together (although it does mention individual application if you know where to look). One application, one amount of maintenance. Each applicant has a provision for their maintenance and only if he/she is applying with or at the same time as the PBS migrant does the PBS migrant need to provide maintenance for himself also.

If you are applying for one child the maintenance is 533 (nothing more).

You and your wife are not making applications and are not asked to provide maintenance on that basis.

I apologize for the previous post. I thought your advise is flawed becasue you havent seen/remember the guidance. Now I realize that it is becasue you know better.

I would still keep the money for everybody to keep up with the guidance.

[Lucapooka]

Appendix E of the immigration rules deals with the maintenance requirement for PBS dependants. There are references in Appendix E made with regard to the PBS migrant being required to provide maintenance in addition to the PBS dependant:

(e) Where the Relevant Points Based System Migrant is applying for entry clearance or leave to remain at the same time as the applicant, the amount of funds available to the applicant must be in addition to the level of funds required separately of the Relevant Points Based System Migrant

[...]

(l) Where the application is one of a number of applications made at the same time as a partner or child of a Relevant Points Based System Migrant (as set out in paragraphs 319A and 319F) each applicant, including the Relevant Points Based System Migrant if applying at the same time, must have the total requisite funds specified in the relevant parts of appendices C and E.

As you can see, the PBS migrant applying at the same time as the dependant is a condition of his necessity to provide maintenance for himself in addition to his dependant. Otherwise, not necessary.

Appendix C deals with the maintenance requirement for PBS Migrants. There are references in Appendix C made with regard to the PBS Migrant being required to provide maintenance in addition to the PBS dependant:

(h) Where the application is made at the same time as applications by the partner or child of the applicant (such that the applicant is a Relevant Points Based System Migrant for the purposes of paragraph 319AA), each applicant must have the total requisite funds specified in the relevant parts of appendices C and E. If each applicant does not individually meet the requirements of appendices C and / or E, as appropriate, all the applications (the application by the Relevant Points Based System Migrant and applications as the partner or child of that relevant Points Based system Migrant) will be refused.

Again you can see, the same conditional clause exists and the need for the PBS migrant to show maintenance for himself in addition to the PBS dependant, when the PBS dependant is not applying with the PBS migrant, is neither mentioned nor demanded. I understand there may have been a very small number of refusals cited on this forum, but they have been incorrect refusals by inept ECOs that were quickly reversed on appeal. The guidance does not help as it seems to favour referring to applications made at the same time as the PBS migrant rather than made separately. However, paragraphs 43 and 46 do refer to applications made separately from the PBS migrant and those don't ask for the PBS migrant to provide proof of maintenance in addition to the applicant.

[varghesejim]

However, paragraphs 43 and 46 do refer to applications made separately from the PBS migrant and those don't ask for the PBS migrant to provide proof of maintenance in addition to the applicant.

The below sentence in bold(from the guidance para 43) is still confusing

43. If the Tier 1 Migrant is outside the United Kingdom or has been present in the United Kingdom for less than 12 months, each family member of the Tier 1 Migrant must show that he/she, the Tier 1 Migrant, or (for children) his/her other parent who is also legally present in the United Kingdom has at least £1600 to support him/her; this is in addition to any funds the Tier 1 Migrant needs to prove he/she has enough money to support himself/herself. Please note dependants of Tier 1 Investors do not need to satisfy the maintenance requirement.

[Lucapooka]

It's not very clear but that's why you should look at the rules rather than guidance. The guidance is referring each family member of the Tier 1 migrant and the key to understanding this is in the words 'this is in addition to any funds the Tier 1 migrant needs himself'. Obviously if the T1 migrant is not making an application at the same time he does not need funds for himself.
I don't know what else to say on this other than if I were wrong the more-informed members and moderators would be jumping all over this thread with corrections - and that is a good thing. Forums such as this exist for discussion and correction of incorrect information.

[varghesejim]

It's not very clear but that's why you should look at the rules rather than guidance. The guidance is referring each family member of the Tier 1 migrant and the key to understanding this is in the words 'this is in addition to any funds the Tier 1 migrant needs himself'. Obviously if the T1 migrant is not making an application at the same time he does not need funds for himself.
I don't know what else to say on this other than if I were wrong the more-informed members and moderators would be jumping all over this thread with corrections - and that is a good thing. Forums such as this exist for discussion and correction of incorrect information.

I got the point. This rule is applicable to me in a few months when I apply for my dependant. I have to take all things into consideration(now that you mentioned CWs rejecting applications incorrectly).

Thank you for the heads up. That helps.

[varghesejim]

It's not very clear but that's why you should look at the rules rather than guidance. The guidance is referring each family member of the Tier 1 migrant and the key to understanding this is in the words 'this is in addition to any funds the Tier 1 migrant needs himself'. Obviously if the T1 migrant is not making an application at the same time he does not need funds for himself.
I don't know what else to say on this other than if I were wrong the more-informed members and moderators would be jumping all over this thread with corrections - and that is a good thing. Forums such as this exist for discussion and correction of incorrect information.

One already asked this question to HO and they confirmed the dependant need the funds only for him/her if they apply at a different time seperately. Its just as you said. See the link
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 998#520243

[sahi]

Thanks everyone for your advice and help.
by the way i called homeoffice today and the lady told me that i need to show £533 for my child visa but she added that this is for the in country application and she do not know aobut the application done in abroad.
she said its better to check with the british high commision in your country.
Thanks

[layman]

Just to be clear, how does one interpret Clause 47 of the policy guidance then?


47. If a family member applies separately from the Tier 1 Migrant, there must still be enough funds
to support each member of the family. Therefore in the example above, if the family has a third
child, the main applicant has been in the United Kingdom for two years and the family applies
for leave to remain for the third child separately, they must provide evidence that they have an
additional £600 in available funds

[Lucapooka]

Exactly as it is written. If you could say what is not clear from your perspective you might get a better answer.

[layman]

However, paragraphs 43 and 46 do refer to applications made separately from the PBS migrant and those don't ask for the PBS migrant to provide proof of maintenance in addition to the applicant.

The clause 47 says 'there must still be enough funds to support each member of the family' which suggests that maintenance funds should be available for the entire family and not only for the dependant being applied for - they must provide evidence that they have an additional £600 in available funds

[Lucapooka]

I agree that it's clumsy prose. There must still be enough funds for each family member means they must be still be funds for each (any) family member who applies later. A family member can't apply without maintenance.

It will help your understanding if your read the rules rather than the guidance. There are no joint applications and therefore there is, effectively, no joint maintenance requirement. Each individual application carries its own individual maintenance whether the applications are made at the same time or not. Maintenance for the PBS migrant and maintenance for the PBS dependant. Where other family members are not making an appliction, only the family member who is making an application needs to show their individual maintenance for that individual application.

[layman]

LP,

I do not agree. We should have continued here;

I have copied the following from one of my responses here with some modifications/additions

Clause 46 of the guidance document says,

If the same Tier 1 Migrant and his family had been present in the UK for two years, they would
require evidence that they held £2700 (£600 x 3 = £1800 + £900) in available funds

This is straightforward since this is for dependant applications at the same time as main applicant

Clause 47 says

If a family member applies separately from the Tier 1 Migrant, there must still be enough funds
to support each member of the family. Therefore in the example above, if the family has a third
child, the main applicant has been in the United Kingdom for two years and the family applies
for leave to remain for the third child separately, they must provide evidence that they have an
additional £600 in available funds.

To me, it suggests that maintenance needs to be shown for the entire family staying in the UK and not only for the number of applicant(s), especially when applying for dependants separately.

If not so, people could potentially send separate applications for dependants(on different days within a week) with bank statements from the same bank account of the main applicant(one original, one print out + stamp, one duplicate, etc) and show that they satisfy maintenance requirements with just £900/£600 balance for 3 months. Just because members of the same family are applying separately within days(as opposed to same day applications together) how can the maintenance fund requirement change so drastically?

If that is the case, then I see it as a glaring loophole in the process.

Having said that, I do acknowledge that there have been many cases where application was successful with just the maintenance for the particular dependant(ie £533/£600 for > 12 month) and personally do not know any case where it was rejected. Whether that can be taken as a precedence or not is up to the individual applicant.

[layman]

Having read the Immigration Rules here,


Appendix E - clause l says

(l) Where the application is one of a number of applications made at the same time as a partner or child of a Relevant Points Based System Migrant (as set out in paragraphs 319A and 319F) each applicant, including the Relevant Points Based System Migrant if applying at the same time, must have the total requisite funds specified in the relevant parts of appendices C and E. if each applicant does not individually meet the requirements of appendices C and / or E, as appropriate, all the applications (the application by the Relevant Points Based System Migrant and applications as the partner or child of that Relevant Points Based System Migrant) will be refused.

So the portion in bold could imply - excluding the Relevant Points Based System Migrant if not applying at the same time

That raises doubts on what exactly UKBA is trying to say regarding maintenance funds when dependants apply separately.

Hopefully by now people would have sufficient information to make their own decisions on this.

[Lucapooka]

Unfortunately you are wrong. An individual application made individually by a PBS dependent (where the other family members are not applying at the same time) does not need to be supported by maintenance for other dependants or the PBS migrant, in addition to the maintenance for the actual application that is under consideration. It's really as simple as that!

If I'm wrong about this you can expect (and I would hope) that moderators and others members with particular knowledge on these issues will quickly challenge my view. I don't expect that to be happening.