European ID card not accepted by UKBA?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Has anyone had a European member state issued ID card not accepted by UKBA, either for the issue of a visa or for the issue of a Residence Card?

I have heard of one case for an apparently valid Finish national ID which did not have an expiry date. And another case with no detail. (thread)

Any others? Please let me know exactly what UKBA said in the rejection letter, and the name of the member state who issued the ID card.


The swiss say they do not recognize some Italian IDs

Are Italian citizens holding a renewed Italian ID card admitted into Switzerland?
  
Paper ID cards bearing an official stamp on the reverse to signify that they have been renewed are considered valid documents entitling their holders to enter Switzerland.

Credit-card-size ID cards that have been renewed by issuing a separate confirmation of extension of validity are not recognised by Switzerland and thus do not authorise entry into Switzerland.

Pasted from <http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/en/ ... l#a_faq_13>

[fysicus]

I had no problems with my Dutch ID card (credit-card size) which I used for the EEA4 application of my wife last year. But this ID card has the same (time-limited) validity as a Dutch passport.
UKBA did however not accept the Residence Certificate that they issued themselves (their precursor IND, that is) in 2005 as proof of identity and/or nationality.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It looks like some Portuguese and Greek ID cards do not have an expiry date. Has anyone had a problem with any of these?

[javelin]

If we had a discrimination problem with these id's what are we to do?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

If we had a discrimination problem with these id's what are we to do?

Can you please describe exactly what sort of discrimination problem you have had?

[javelin]

I was refused to open a bank account because my eea card 'was invalid'. After much insistence with the bank, the financial ombudsman and finally the courts, the latter said that there are no legal grounds to my claim. This seems to go against the anti-discrimination directive of the Lisbon Treaty but I can't find a way to make it honourable. Is there one?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Can you please give more information about the ID card. Who was it issued by? Why did anyone consider it invalid? Who exactly considered it "invalid"?

[Plum70]

My husband's Swiss ID card has been rejected several times as unacceptable ID in banks and most recently at a mobile phone store.

When asked why, the answer has been because Switzerland is not part of the EU so therefore only the Swiss passport can be accepted.

Made no sense to us then and now.

[anp]

There are many places that do not accept other than UK IDs. Night clubs, pubs, betting shops, convinient stores, casinos, etc. If you are lucky to look young, THINK 21 and THINK 25 guidelines instruct that only UK IDs should be accepted, except when staff have been trained to recognize foreign IDs. I believe the same goes for banks, post office and other services.

Most people apply for the Provisional Driving License. Its an official form of ID, easy to get and it is accepted everywhere.

[habibcs]

What is the ID card for Danish national?
Do they have to submit Passport? Can Denmark driving license as ID card? Is there a better way? (For example when applying for EEA1 or EEA2)

How to get Provisional Driving License? (When one has a Denmark driving license and UAE - Dubai driving license)
Will it work as ID when applying for EEA1/EEA2 - or it is just helpful to open bank accounts or NI number or something else?...

[fysicus]

There are many places that do not accept other than UK IDs. Night clubs, pubs, betting shops, convinient stores, casinos, etc. If you are lucky to look young, THINK 21 and THINK 25 guidelines instruct that only UK IDs should be accepted, except when staff have been trained to recognize foreign IDs. I believe the same goes for banks, post office and other services.

Most people apply for the Provisional Driving License. Its an official form of ID, easy to get and it is accepted everywhere.

I guess you would have a very strong case if you take legal action against anyone who refuses an ID issued by any EU-country. Anything that is good enough to enter the UK, must also be good enough as proof of identity (and also age) to anybody within the UK.

Having said that, I was unable to find any official guidelines (like THINK 21 or 25) that explicitly mention that only UK-issued ID's can be accepted. Can you provide a link to such instructions?

[anp]

There are many places that do not accept other than UK IDs. Night clubs, pubs, betting shops, convinient stores, casinos, etc. If you are lucky to look young, THINK 21 and THINK 25 guidelines instruct that only UK IDs should be accepted, except when staff have been trained to recognize foreign IDs. I believe the same goes for banks, post office and other services.

Most people apply for the Provisional Driving License. Its an official form of ID, easy to get and it is accepted everywhere.

I guess you would have a very strong case if you take legal action against anyone who refuses an ID issued by any EU-country. Anything that is good enough to enter the UK, must also be good enough as proof of identity (and also age) to anybody within the UK.

Having said that, I was unable to find any official guidelines (like THINK 21 or 25) that explicitly mention that only UK-issued ID's can be accepted. Can you provide a link to such instructions?

THINK 21 & THINK 25 are guidelines, not policies and every company applies it as they see fit. Many businesses I have dealt with, and local authorities recommend not to accept foreign IDs at face value, but only if the employees are trained to recognize a genuine one from a fake one. That is to prevent fraud and underage drinking/smoking/gambling.

Acceptable proof of ID are passports, UK driving licence (& provisional), and UK citizen-cards. There are no legal provisions for EU ID Cards when it comes to private businesses, even though they are commonly accepted. I don´t see how can you take legal action?! Again, I am talking about PRIVATE BUSINESSES, not UKBA, or governmental institutions. Sorry Directive/2004/38/EC, we are a bit off the original topic.

[anp]

How to get Provisional Driving License? (When one has a Denmark driving license and UAE - Dubai driving license)
Will it work as ID when applying for EEA1/EEA2 - or it is just helpful to open bank accounts or NI number or something else?...

Ask at your local Post Office for an application form for a Provisional Driving License Application form. You will need to send it with your passport for about 3-4 weeks to DVLA.

As for the Danish driving license, you can exchange it for a British one. Not a requirement in order to drive, but highly recommendable if you are moving to UK permanently.

I believe Danish ID should be sufficient for your EEA1 & EEA2 applications, but I wouldn´t confuse them. There are probably caseworkers who might not deem it fit for purpose. It does have to do with the UK´s confusing stance on many EU Directives.

[javelin]

Can you please give more information about the ID card. Who was it issued by? Why did anyone consider it invalid? Who exactly considered it "invalid"?

The card is the official EEA portuguese id card used to travel in the EEA and also accepted everywhere (pubs, public institutions, other banks) that is until that bank said it was invalid. Mind you that they clearly say they accept EEA id cards as proof of id. They just did not accept mine.

You ask who? First it was the employee who said it was missing data and had the wrong layout. Then the manager. Then the final reply letter from the bank internal department.

The Financial Ombudsman after some insistence said that the bank was wrong but then did nothing.

The Court said the claim seemed to have no legal ground.

[javelin]

My husband's Swiss ID card has been rejected several times as unacceptable ID in banks and most recently at a mobile phone store.

When asked why, the answer has been because Switzerland is not part of the EU so therefore only the Swiss passport can be accepted.

Made no sense to us then and now.

I'm afraid they are right in that case. Switzerland is not even part of the European Economic Area (EEA) so helvetians have no EEA id card.

[javelin]

(...) There are no legal provisions for EU ID Cards when it comes to private businesses, even though they are commonly accepted. I don´t see how can you take legal action?! Again, I am talking about PRIVATE BUSINESSES, not UKBA, or governmental institutions. (...)

The Lisbon Treaty outlaws discrimination between EU citizens. That also includes the provision of services, private or otherwise.
If 'PRIVATE BUSINESSES' are allowed to profit from the common market they are also allowed to be punished for not following the rules of the club.

The bank says it accepts EEA cards, it didn't accept mine and I had to leave the bank with all my personal details in their systems. That is discrimination and I found it outrageous. Or is it required for Hollywood to produce some movies about europeans treated as second class to make it as sensitive as black or Irish discrimination?...

[anp]

(...) There are no legal provisions for EU ID Cards when it comes to private businesses, even though they are commonly accepted. I don´t see how can you take legal action?! Again, I am talking about PRIVATE BUSINESSES, not UKBA, or governmental institutions. (...)

The Lisbon Treaty outlaws discrimination between EU citizens. That also includes the provision of services, private or otherwise.
If 'PRIVATE BUSINESSES' are allowed to profit from the common market they are also allowed to be punished for not following the rules of the club.

The bank says it accepts EEA cards, it didn't accept mine and I had to leave the bank with all my personal details in their systems. That is discrimination and I found it outrageous. Or is it required for Hollywood to produce some movies about europeans treated as second class to make it as sensitive as black or Irish discrimination?...

There are other reasons why EU ID cards aren't accepted everywhere, many of them very valid reasons.

1) EU and UK businesses are generally not trained to recognize a genuine one from a fake one.
2) EU ID Cards lack endorsements of rights and restrictions.
3) EU ID Cards are often for instance not in English or French, thus making them obsolete.
4) Many ID Cards have very few elements of security e.g Italian Carta d'identita and it is easily falsifiable.

This is not discrimination. Its just an example that EU is not yet the union we would all like it to be.

[thsths]

There are other reasons why EU ID cards aren't accepted everywhere, many of them very valid reasons.

I am not so sure - when it comes to discrimination, you need more than valid reasons, you need very strong and structured reasons to get away with it. And discrimination it is no doubt - whether direct or indirect is difficult to say.

1) EU and UK businesses are generally not trained to recognize a genuine one from a fake one.

Laziness is not a valid reason for discrimination. You would need to demonstrate an unreasonable expense, and I cannot see that.

2) EU ID Cards lack endorsements of rights and restrictions.

So does your drivers license, and how is that relevant?

3) EU ID Cards are often for instance not in English or French, thus making them obsolete.

4) Many ID Cards have very few elements of security e.g Italian Carta d'identita and it is easily falsifiable.

Modern cards use a standard format, so this should not be an issue.

I agree that it would have been nice to include at least English (and French/German) labels on every card, but maybe Europe is not ready for that yet.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

3) EU ID Cards are often for instance not in English or French, thus making them obsolete.

Que?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I believe Danish ID should be sufficient for your EEA1 & EEA2 applications

must be

[anp]

thsths,

Talking about EU ID Cards, there is no unified system of identification. Greeks, Italians, the French and the Finnish are amongst the ones I know that have their ID cards only in their respective language. (unless they have changed them recently)

Honestly, I can't see the EU making it a requirement for ALL companies in EU to train their staff on ID cards, although most of them ID cards are generally accepted. There is more than laziness to this, and I doubt that EU will go that far as to making it punishable by law if "x" company doesn't train it's employees. Remember, there are 27 different ID Cards.

Endorsements are relevant because only then you can make a case should your ID not be accepted. Simply put, an endorsement is a tiny sentence or two briefly stating the rights of the person possessing that ID card. Most EU ID cards are not in a standard format, and not centrally regulated by a particular office or recognizable by a common format/stamp. Think why it hasn't happened yet!!

As I mentioned it before, you have to work around these bureaucratic inconveniences one way or another.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

An ID card issued by a European/EEA member state must legally be accepted for all government related activity.

It is definitely good enough to apply for a Residence Card or apply for citizenship or get a NI number.

[Plum70]

My husband's Swiss ID card has been rejected several times as unacceptable ID in banks and most recently at a mobile phone store.

When asked why, the answer has been because Switzerland is not part of the EU so therefore only the Swiss passport can be accepted.

Made no sense to us then and now.

I'm afraid they are right in that case. Switzerland is not even part of the European Economic Area (EEA) so helvetians have no EEA id card.

So how is it that the Swiss ID is accepted by the UKBA on entry to the UK? It is either not accepted across the board or is. Partial acceptance creates confusion and raises questions about how the law is being interpreted and implemented.

[fysicus]

On my Dutch ID card it is written (in Dutch only) that it is valid for travel to all EU countries plus: Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Norway, San Marino, Turkey, Iceland and Switzerland.

There are only three (at most) dates mentioned on it: date of birth, date of issue and expiry date, and it doesn't take a genius to work out which is which, even if you can't read the headings.
There is a lot more uniformity than anp suggests, because of the requirements laid down in various EU Regulations and the Schengen Treaty. A lot of details can be found on PRADO

[anp]

On my Dutch ID card it is written (in Dutch only) that it is valid for travel to all EU countries plus: Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Norway, San Marino, Turkey, Iceland and Switzerland.

There are only three (at most) dates mentioned on it: date of birth, date of issue and expiry date, and it doesn't take a genius to work out which is which, even if you can't read the headings.
There is a lot more uniformity than anp suggests, because of the requirements laid down in various EU Regulations and the Schengen Treaty. A lot of details can be found on PRADO

All ID cards all over the world are similar in principle. We were talking whether legal action can be taken against private businesses, which I highly doubt. Having worked for the last 5 years in retail for a massive company that deals with hundreds of tourists, accepting ID cards at face value can be very risky. I have worked closely alongside Westminster Council and Lambeth Council, and they all recommend ID training, otherwise passports or UK ID only. Again, this is primarily to prevent ID Fraud, and underage drinking/smoking/gambling.

We can discuss uniformity for weeks, but as long as the ID Cards will be in different formats and without 2-3 unifying elements, they will find it hard to be embraced by all. I can give you some scandalous examples I have come across. Perhaps you are not aware of how good ID fraudsters have become and what silly ID Cards some governments across EU still produce.

The fact of the matter is that member states have not taken serious steps to resolve this issue, and neither can we.