Referees (new rules)

Marco 72 · Post by **Marco 72** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:16 pm

The rules for referees on citizenship applications have recently become stricter. Now one referee needs to be a "person of standing in the community", the other an ordinary passport holder. It also seems that now both referees must have a valid passport, with no exception. See page 12 of the new application form. My questions:

1. Would a university lecturer count as a "person of standing"?
2. The referee must fill in a section called "Say how you know the applicant". Is it ok to write, say, "we have been friends for 10 years"?

Thanks,

Marco

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:37 pm

I'd guess so, to both questions...
To save people scrolling through the new guide AN(TD), it says

One referee should be a person of professional standing, such as a doctor, a minister of religion, civil servant or a member of a professional body eg accountant or solicitor (but not representing you with this application). The other should be the holder of a current British citizen passport. Each should be:

aged 25 years or over

not related to you

not related to the other referee

not your solicitor or agent representing you with this application

not employed by the Home Office
"

and while teachers/ lecturers aren't explicitly included they are "persons of professional standing", and the Identity & Passport Service accept them as countersignatories for passport applications, so I can't see that the Home Office would refuse them, given that the new requirement is really only aping what the Passport Office have been doing since the 19th century...
Just my opinion, though - I'm sure someone will come along with a different one.

Marco 72 · Post by **Marco 72** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:43 pm

Thanks. Do you know if there is some number at the Home Office which I can call to ask for confirmation on this?

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:00 pm

0845 010 5200 - open 9am-9pm.

FYI, I spoke to them earlier (not on your particular question) and - (you could have knocked me down with a feather) - they weren't yet fully briefed on the new forms but thought that my speculation that they might use the tried & tested IPS list, rather than spend months compiling their own sounded "reasonable". But you might get a different adviser in the morning...

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:53 pm

According to the IPS list anyone who is the director of a limited company can countersign a passport application and therefore also act as a referee for a naturalisation application. That should make it a lot easier to find a referee. Therefore even a mate of yours who is a contractor or freelancer and using their own limited company to work through could, in theory, act as a referee for you (providing they meet all the other requirements).

AlexCh · Post by **AlexCh** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:05 pm

How the HO will know which one of the two referees is a "person of professional standing"? On the new form they do not ask any questions regarding their qualifications or employment.

jes2jes · Post by **jes2jes** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:45 pm

AlexCh wrote:How the HO will know which one of the two referees is a "person of professional standing"? On the new form they do not ask any questions regarding their qualifications or employment.

I guess from the form, it asks for the referee's UK passport number which, they can deduce the person's profession from their application for Ppt earlier (The catch would be if the passport had been held at the time the person was not a professional) OR a quality control call would ascertain this. HO has the resources to find out such information so do not bother yourself. It might be an omission/an error or deliberate act to catch offenders

I won't worry about it though!

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:17 pm

HO has the resources to find out such information so do not bother yourself.

That, my friend, is absolute rubbish. It is well known that the Home Office is incredibly bad at finding out things. For example, if it was so easy for the Home Office to look at people's tax records whenever it wanted to, how do so many people on working holiday visas get away with working the full 2 years instead of the 1 year that they are allowed to? How do students who are only supposed to work 20 hours per week get away with working as full-time employees?

In theory all it would take is to compare every immigrants visa status with their tax records to see what their employment activity is like and bust them all. In reality the Home Office doesn't have a clue because, despite what you may think, the one thing you can count on in the Home Office is absolute incompetence.

jes2jes · Post by **jes2jes** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:37 pm

Dawie wrote:
HO has the resources to find out such information so do not bother yourself.
That, my friend, is absolute rubbish. It is well known that the Home Office is incredibly bad at finding out things. For example, if it was so easy for the Home Office to look at people's tax records whenever it wanted to, how do so many people on working holiday visas get away with working the full 2 years instead of the 1 year that they are allowed to? How do students who are only supposed to work 20 hours per week get away with working as full-time employees?

In theory all it would take is to compare every immigrants visa status with their tax records to see what their employment activity is like and bust them all. In reality the Home Office doesn't have a clue because, despite what you may think, the one thing you can count on in the Home Office is absolute incompetence.

Dawie, I am afraid what I posted is not rubbish!

They do have the means to to find out any info to tell you the truth. The question that comes to play is the cost of tracking every immigrant as to whether they are observing immigration status per their visa restrictions compared to concentrating on serious crimes and social issues on the ground. They therefore choose the later and randomly check what you think they should concentrate on.

It would be wonderful to do what you suggest but the HO do not have the resource to do both so they choose the more pressing issue. Just don't jump the gun when you read a post on face vaue.

Thanks

AlexCh · Post by **AlexCh** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:40 pm

jes2jes wrote:HO has the resources to find out such information so do not bother yourself.

Yes - and it probably will take them a year or two to find out this information....

By the way - do they ask anything about your job/professional qualifications in the passport application form? I don't think I gave anything - apart of (possibly) the name of my employer. But - for example - not all people working in hospitals are doctors, so it is still not clear if specific referee is a doctor or not. They obviously copied these requirements from the passport application form, but in the passport application form they explicitly ask a referee to provide information regarding his/her job and qualifications.

Marco 72 · Post by **Marco 72** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:58 pm

ppron747 wrote:0845 010 5200 - open 9am-9pm.

FYI, I spoke to them earlier (not on your particular question) and - (you could have knocked me down with a feather) - they weren't yet fully briefed on the new forms but thought that my speculation that they might use the tried & tested IPS list, rather than spend months compiling their own sounded "reasonable". But you might get a different adviser in the morning...

Thanks, I called them today. I was told that yes, a lecturer qualifies, and so does a university researcher or a teacher, or "anyone working in a professional organisation"... Whatever that means.

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Referees (new rules)

Referees (new rules)