European ID card not accepted by UKBA?

[javelin]

The point is that the bank says very clearly that it accepts EEA id cards as proof of id. Therefore it must accept all cards otherwise they are discriminating.

They had more than enough opportunities to validate the card. There is even a public website describing the cards as fysicus have shown. It would just take one minute. Their demeanour was simply unprofessional and disrespectful. Especially for a bank that is 40% owned by (supposedly) the tax payer.

The European commission even has a website with a similar case with a suggested resolution process here:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/sh ... dex_en.htm

Unfortunately, the Financial Ombudsman recognized the malpractice, suggested that the bank should pay compensation but then failed to act.

Now the most worrisome part is that the Court is complicit and that I find frightening.

Do you think that a complaint directly to the Commission would be worthwile?

[thsths]

Now the most worrisome part is that the Court is complicit and that I find frightening.

That is strange - are you sure that your case was well presented? Discrimination based on nationality is illegal, and I think this is a very clear case of it. There are exceptions, and banks can use them, but as I said "we are too lazy to train our staffs" is not a valid excuse.

[javelin]

I think so. In any case the bank also explained their take on the events -denying any wrong doing- and it matched my version.
Nevertheless their lawyer said that I had no grounds for an action, asked the court to strike out the claim based on some article and that was exactly what the judge did.
Even the paragraph where they explained that the Financial Ombudsman upheld my complaint didn't seem to matter.
I wrote I was discriminated but I didn't say 'it was nationality discrimination counterveining the article x of the treaty z' because I'm not a lawyer and the government themselves encourages the use of the small claims process to bring access to justice to non-experts.

You say it's illegal. Why do you say that?

[thsths]

You say it's illegal. Why do you say that?

Try the Equality Act 2010. It is pretty far reaching, includes nationality, and is not limited to employment. The only problem in the argument is that the UK does not have ID cards. So if the bank says that they do not accept any ID cards as proof of ID (stupid as it may sound), that may not be discrimination. But I assume they accept other EEA ID cards?

[javelin]

(...) So if the bank says that they do not accept any ID cards as proof of ID (...)

No, the bank (as other banks) clearly say they do accept EEA id cards as proof of id. They just said my card was not an EEA id card so they could not accept it.

Try the Equality Act 2010

I hope it doesn't sound the wrong way but what do I do with it?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Which country is your ID card from and in what way is it special or unusual?

[javelin]

Why do you say it is special or unusual?
It's a plastic card, much like the other EEA cards. Anybody can easily look at them in the PRADO database given above or just googling "portuguese id card".

That said, even if the card was made of unicorn sequins and written in sanskrit, how can that make a significant difference to this particular case?

[anp]

Why don't you make use of your passport?

[fysicus]

I can only speak for myself, but a creditcard sized piece of plastic is a lot easier to carry than a passport. I suppose javelin has similar considerations. As a matter of fact, I frequently used my Dutch ID card at the bank (probably the same as javelin complained about) as well. However, in my case there was the lucky coincidence that the branch manager was Italian and hence knew there is land at the other side of the North Sea.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Why do you say it is special or unusual?
It's a plastic card, much like the other EEA cards. Anybody can easily look at them in the PRADO database given above or just googling "portuguese id card".

That said, even if the card was made of unicorn sequins and written in sanskrit, how can that make a significant difference to this particular case?

I did not say it was unusual. I asked. Remember that I have not seen the thing in your wallet.

There are some European issued ID cards that do not have a date of expiry (that might be considered "unusual"). There are also ID cards printed on normal paper, which also might be considered "unusual".

UKBA definitely has to take all these things (and even started issuing one themselves for a few months). But Banks seem to have more difficultly with it.

[anp]

It´s ridiculous when the word ¨discrimination¨ is thrown around when talking about EU ID cards. It is such a one sided argument that doesn´t take into consideration the fact that EU ID cards do not have any sort of conformity, and lack serious security measures. Let alone the fact that a lot of countries do not have ID cards, and others have voluntary ones in their own languages. I am sorry that you do not see the real issues here. Most business that offer services to tourists and visitors do generally accept them. But if one is settled or is planning to settle in UK, they should be able to produce a passport or obtain a UK ID. Or should I perhaps go as far as saying that you are discriminating and undermining UK rules and regulations? It´s just ridiculous.

[thsths]

It´s ridiculous when the word ¨discrimination¨ is thrown around when talking about EU ID cards. It is such a one sided argument that doesn´t take into consideration the fact that EU ID cards do not have any sort of conformity, and lack serious security measures. Let alone the fact that a lot of countries do not have ID cards, and others have voluntary ones in their own languages. I am sorry that you do not see the real issues here. Most business that offer services to tourists and visitors do generally accept them. But if one is settled or is planning to settle in UK, they should be able to produce a passport or obtain a UK ID. Or should I perhaps go as far as saying that you are discriminating and undermining UK rules and regulations? It´s just ridiculous.

You are both wrong and way out of line. UK financial regulations state very clearly that EEA ID cards are an acceptable form of identification. The bank says that EEA ID cards are an acceptable form of identification. If then the bank employee tells me "I am sorry, I do not accept Swiss ID cards", I would feel discriminated against. That is exactly the kind of attitude that the discrimination act makes illegal, and in my limited understanding you can sue both the bank and the individual.

If I tried this with a foreign drivers license (especially the old style paper ones), or a non-EEA ID card, the situation would be different. Those are not acceptable forms of identification, and the bank is perfectly in their right not to consider them.

[anp]

You didn´t read my posts, did you? Your case specifically addresses that particular bank, which obviously is not adhering to their rules. On the other hand, I was talking about ID cards in general. You seem to have a lot of time and patience to even considering suing them. He/she is not discriminating you on the basis of your nationality, thus it does not qualify as discrimination. You have produced an ID that he/she is not trained to recognize or perhaps accept. There are EEA countries that issue same ID cards to their citizens and non-citizens. If one analyzes individual IDs of each country, you would be astonished of how many issues are potentially there. Get your passport issued. Problem solved.

Ah, if you care about the principle and want to make things right in the world, you may also considering suing the Chinese government for the discriminatory yet genocidal treatment of Tibetans.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It´s ridiculous when the word ¨discrimination¨ is thrown around when talking about EU ID cards. It is such a one sided argument that doesn´t take into consideration the fact that EU ID cards do not have any sort of conformity, and lack serious security measures. Let alone the fact that a lot of countries do not have ID cards, and others have voluntary ones in their own languages. I am sorry that you do not see the real issues here. Most business that offer services to tourists and visitors do generally accept them. But if one is settled or is planning to settle in UK, they should be able to produce a passport or obtain a UK ID. Or should I perhaps go as far as saying that you are discriminating and undermining UK rules and regulations? It´s just ridiculous.

European issued ID cards are legal identification. There is no requirement that an EU citizen obtain a passport ever, let along before moving to another EU member state.

You say "they should be able to produce a passport or obtain a UK ID". Why exactly should they get a passport? And which UK ID are you referring to?

[javelin]

Thanks guys for the replies but could we please focus? The main issue here is the Court's attitude. I know we can sue anybody we want. The MoJ surely appreciates our donations.

But how can we get to a practical resolution so this doesn't spread wider?
Anybody had any experience with the European Commission?
Do you know of any individual complaint that was upheld by them?
I know this case is not isolated so do you know anybody willing to file a joint complaint?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Thanks guys for the replies but could we please focus? The main issue here is the Court's attitude. I know we can sue anybody we want. The MoJ surely appreciates our donations.

But how can we get to a practical resolution so this doesn't spread wider?
Anybody had any experience with the European Commission?
Do you know of any individual complaint that was upheld by them?
I know this case is not isolated so do you know anybody willing to file a joint complaint?

I think it is up to you to take this forward.

You should do the following:
(1) formally complain to the bank
(2) formally complain to the banking ombudsman
(3) Complain to the European Commission
(4) Petition the European Parliament

[thsths]

Thanks guys for the replies but could we please focus? The main issue here is the Court's attitude.

As I said I am very surprised that you lost this case. But if you want to know why, you have to talk to a lawyer. It sounds like you went to the small claims court. Because discrimination cases can be inherently complicated, that may not be the best place to expect a resolution.

I am not sure that the European Commission is going to be very interested, unless this is a typical experience. I see it as very much a national question.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

They are interested in all sorts of things that hinder free movement. So car registration arrangements, and ID cards, and opening a bank account. By all means talk with The European Commission and lay out why it is a problem.

[javelin]

Thanks Directive for the directions. (1) and (2) were dead ends so let's hope the other half work.

How do you talk with the European Commission?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Thanks Directive for the directions. (1) and (2) were dead ends so let's hope the other half work.

How do you talk with the European Commission?

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/11 ... fectively/

[javelin]

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/11 ... fectively/

Thank you. Very informative blog. Any relation with the author?

They are interested in all sorts of things that hinder free movement

Have you experienced this?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I wrote the blog post, if that is your question.

Have I experienced what?

[ca.funke]

I wanted to open account with PTSB in Ireland at some stage.

The clerk clearly had no clue: As a dual-national, I had my Belgian ID with me (credit card size) and my old German ID (funny sized laminated thing).

Interestingly, the PTSB clerk declared the Belgian ID unacceptable, accepting the German one as a "passport"...

I achieved my desired operation, but couldn´t help finding the matter a bit ridiculous.

In any case, the summary is: EU state agencies are obliged to accept all EU-issued IDs, whether they like or not. Private businesses can accept whatever they like, even if it doesn´t make sense.

Discrimination, imho, only applies if one person is accepted while the other one is not, although their papers are identical. So a private business can, IMHO, say "we accept Greek and German IDs, but Dutch and Belgian IDs won´t be honoured".

Not sure though...

[fysicus]

In any case, the summary is: EU state agencies are obliged to accept all EU-issued IDs, whether they like or not. Private businesses can accept whatever they like, even if it doesn´t make sense.

Discrimination, imho, only applies if one person is accepted while the other one is not, although their papers are identical. So a private business can, IMHO, say "we accept Greek and German IDs, but Dutch and Belgian IDs won´t be honoured".

I think your example is about the clearest possible form of discrimination on grounds of nationality, and I find it unthinkable that it can be legal anywhere in the EU.

If an organisation (private or not) has a (legal) obligation to establish the identity (or age) of someone they are dealing with (as banks do indeed have, at least for some operations, as well as retailers selling alcoholic drinks), they have to accept the same sort of evidence as government agencies.

[anp]

In any case, the summary is: EU state agencies are obliged to accept all EU-issued IDs, whether they like or not. Private businesses can accept whatever they like, even if it doesn´t make sense.

Discrimination, imho, only applies if one person is accepted while the other one is not, although their papers are identical. So a private business can, IMHO, say "we accept Greek and German IDs, but Dutch and Belgian IDs won´t be honoured".

I think your example is about the clearest possible form of discrimination on grounds of nationality, and I find it unthinkable that it can be legal anywhere in the EU.

If an organisation (private or not) has a (legal) obligation to establish the identity (or age) of someone they are dealing with (as banks do indeed have, at least for some operations, as well as retailers selling alcoholic drinks), they have to accept the same sort of evidence as government agencies.

Clearest possible form of discrimination based on nationality? Which planet are you from, mate? It´s not his nationality that is being discriminated, but his ID. Or you could perhaps say his carelessness. How hard is it to see the difference? And why don´t you guys get a PROPER ID which is accepted by all?

Countries are producing BIOMETRIC passports and IDs now. The reasons for biometric IDs may perhaps clarify you why national IDs are not always accepted. In the meantime you moan about ¨discrimination¨ based on some silly nonconforming ID cards.

If you still wonder why this is happening, it has ONLY to do with the ¨qualities¨ of the ID, not where it´s from.

You wanna talk about discrimination? Ask the Non-EEA citizens about how many requirements we have have to fulfil to live and work here. And you are born into it...That clearly has got to be discrimination based on nationality, or may be not?!!