Visit visa for mother in law

[andyjohnst]

Backgorund
Me - UK citizen. Living and working in Ireland since 20 December 2011 currently exercising EU treaty rights.

Wife - NON-EU citizen. Currently on Stamp 4 visa whilst her Residence Card application is completed. Should be in receipt of Residence Card on or around 2 July 2012.

My mother-in-law (NON-EU) would like to come and visit Ireland in August this year. To see her daughter, son-in-law and sight see.

Can she apply for a visit visa under the Directive EU/2004/38/EC?

Prior to coming to Ireland with my wife, I was in Baku, Azerbaijan from 1 November 2011 to 1 December 2011, living at her (my mother-in-laws) home.

From what I can see she would be entitled to under the directive. These are some qutoes from the directive but I'm having a bit of trouble understanding it. If anyone could help or shed some light on it, that would be great.

In order to maintain the unity of the family in a broader sense and without prejudice to the prohibition of discrimination on grounds of nationality, the situation of those persons who are not included in the definition of family members under this Directive, and who therefore do not enjoy an automatic right of entry and residence in the host Member State, should be examined by the host Member State on the basis of its own national legislation, in order to decide whether entry and residence could be granted to such persons, taking into consideration their relationship with the Union citizen or any other circumstances, such as their financial or physical dependence on the Union citizen.

Article 3 Beneficiaries

1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 who accompany or join them.

2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following persons:

(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;

(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

The host Member State shall undertake an extensive examination of the personal circumstances and shall justify any denial of entry or residence to these people.

Any thoughts?

[adlexy]

Backgorund
Me - UK citizen. Living and working in Ireland since 20 December 2011 currently exercising EU treaty rights.

Wife - NON-EU citizen. Currently on Stamp 4 visa whilst her Residence Card application is completed. Should be in receipt of Residence Card on or around 2 July 2012.

My mother-in-law (NON-EU) would like to come and visit Ireland in August this year. To see her daughter, son-in-law and sight see.

Can she apply for a visit visa under the Directive EU/2004/38/EC?

Prior to coming to Ireland with my wife, I was in Baku, Azerbaijan from 1 November 2011 to 1 December 2011, living at her (my mother-in-laws) home.

From what I can see she would be entitled to under the directive. These are some qutoes from the directive but I'm having a bit of trouble understanding it. If anyone could help or shed some light on it, that would be great.

In order to maintain the unity of the family in a broader sense and without prejudice to the prohibition of discrimination on grounds of nationality, the situation of those persons who are not included in the definition of family members under this Directive, and who therefore do not enjoy an automatic right of entry and residence in the host Member State, should be examined by the host Member State on the basis of its own national legislation, in order to decide whether entry and residence could be granted to such persons, taking into consideration their relationship with the Union citizen or any other circumstances, such as their financial or physical dependence on the Union citizen.

Article 3 Beneficiaries

1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 who accompany or join them.

2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following persons:

(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;

(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

The host Member State shall undertake an extensive examination of the personal circumstances and shall justify any denial of entry or residence to these people.

Any thoughts?

Hello andyjohnst,

You will need to show some detail about how you support your mother-in-law, and what evidence you will present to show that she is a 'dependent.'
Article 2(2)(d) of Directive 2004/38/EC states that "relatives in the ascending line, such as parents, should be dependent." This has been defined in the European Courts as that the family member's personal financial means do not allow them to live at the minimum level of subsistence in the country of their normal residence.

In this instance, you would need to prove that you have been continuously financially supporting your mother-in-law for a period of time prior to the visa application, in order that she can be considered a family member in line with Article 2.

However, let us hear from those with deeper knowledge of the Directive to shed more light.

I am particularly interested in this thread as I may be in the same situation soon.

All the best

[andyjohnst]

What I was thinking was sending western union payments of say 200euro every month for the next 5/6 months and keeping the dockets as proof off dependency?

I don't know if this would suffice or if she should simply go down the general visitor category with family ties for reasons to visit. Things that may jepordise that is she lives in a cash world with no bank account :/ hmmmmm

[adlexy]

What I was thinking was sending western union payments of say 200euro every month for the next 5/6 months and keeping the dockets as proof off dependency?

I don't know if this would suffice or if she should simply go down the general visitor category with family ties for reasons to visit. Things that may jepordise that is she lives in a cash world with no bank account :/ hmmmmm

andjohnst,

The action plan as stated is perfect, but a minimum requirement will be for at least 6months - that is usually the proof of dependency. And I think that should suffice.

All the best

[adlexy]

Backgorund
Me - UK citizen. Living and working in Ireland since 20 December 2011 currently exercising EU treaty rights.

Wife - NON-EU citizen. Currently on Stamp 4 visa whilst her Residence Card application is completed. Should be in receipt of Residence Card on or around 2 July 2012.

My mother-in-law (NON-EU) would like to come and visit Ireland in August this year. To see her daughter, son-in-law and sight see.

Can she apply for a visit visa under the Directive EU/2004/38/EC?

Prior to coming to Ireland with my wife, I was in Baku, Azerbaijan from 1 November 2011 to 1 December 2011, living at her (my mother-in-laws) home.

From what I can see she would be entitled to under the directive. These are some qutoes from the directive but I'm having a bit of trouble understanding it. If anyone could help or shed some light on it, that would be great.

In order to maintain the unity of the family in a broader sense and without prejudice to the prohibition of discrimination on grounds of nationality, the situation of those persons who are not included in the definition of family members under this Directive, and who therefore do not enjoy an automatic right of entry and residence in the host Member State, should be examined by the host Member State on the basis of its own national legislation, in order to decide whether entry and residence could be granted to such persons, taking into consideration their relationship with the Union citizen or any other circumstances, such as their financial or physical dependence on the Union citizen.

Article 3 Beneficiaries

1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 who accompany or join them.

2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following persons:

(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;

(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

The host Member State shall undertake an extensive examination of the personal circumstances and shall justify any denial of entry or residence to these people.

Any thoughts?

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andyjohnst,

I found this response by walrusgumble in one of my earlier post on similar query. Hope that is useful in some ways

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These are questions still to be answered by the CJEU

There are two kinds of families. THe first group is that contained at Article 2 of the Directive.

These include spouse and children (dependents in the descending order) and normally parents (dependent relatives in the ascending order)

Two categories of family this family groups are automatic. They are Children and the Spouse. The parents are not automatic. They need to be dependent. In my view, this need only be shown when they come into the country. I will explain this in a second, because I am aware that the Department might be playing up on this one

The second family group can be found at Article 3.2 . This includes uncles, nieces, cousins etc. Members of the extended family. They need to prove dependence in the country and dependence prior to coming to say Ireland.


Returning to Article 2 family and especially the groups who are dependent relatives of the ascending family. Remember I said all that should need to be shown is dependence while in the residing country, and not evidence prior to arrival, like Article 3.2. Read Article 2. It seems, literally (and the Member States demand this type of interpretation) there is not requirement for prior dependency, unlike Article 3.2.

However, the English believed there was, but the British Court (remember its CJEU who calls the shots) said no and I think they are correct. However , I believe that the Irish might ignore this. They will try and argue that the 2007 CJEU case of Jia demands that dependancy in Country of origin is also required. But Metock, I believe was more than just spouse, but anyone in Article 2, thus no need for prior dependency.

Here are the relevant cases on family reunification that I am referring to. THe British case, be careful because CJEU have said nothing on this yet.

Jia
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,, ... 7f2,0.html

Pedro (English Case)
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

Further Sources on the Family.
Read this
http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ly-member/
http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ficiaries/
http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/05 ... y-members/

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 01:EN:HTML
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 010:EN:PDF

Q1. To directly answer your question, "what does dependency" mean ? another British case, its seems that the Brits are the only ones who have attempted to discuss it.

+ A person is only dependent who actually receives support from another.
+ There need be no right to that support and it is irrelevant that there are alternative sources of support available.
+ That support must be material, although not necessarily financial, and must provide for, or contribute towards, the basic necessities of life.

http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/aspx/view.aspx?id=2426


Q 2. Depends on who the family member is. Spouse and/or child (automatic, no need for dependency). Or parents (need for dependency, but I believe only while in the new country). Or Other family members as per Article 3.2 (Possible Problems as evidence of dependency while they were at home is needed)

Q3. Are the family members old and ill? , and heavily relying on people to care for them? What is the family member's circumstances. It may not be simply financial dependency.

Q4. It will be easy to show family link, but the question is, can you show they are dependent on Eu family member.

You might need to give a factual scenario.

Bottom line, Europe has to consider these cases under Directive 2004/38 EC . This has not been done. It could go anyway. If the EU has some finance it may help. Is the EU citizen living in their own country of citizenship (forget it , the Directive may not apply in the first place) or is the EU citizen living in another EU state and complying with Article 7 of the Directive? What age is the EU Citizen?

[Ben]

andyjohnst,

Your mother-in-law has a right of residence in Ireland as she is a person described in Article 3(2) of the Directive. That is, she was a member of the household of the Union citizen in the country from which they came.

For the EUTR visa, proof of relationship together with proof that you lived under one roof in Azerbaijan shall be required. Once in Ireland, the same will be required for her application for a residence card - which I suggest should be made for ease of future visits if nothing else.

Dependency is not required, so no need for manufactured evidence of this.

[adlexy]

andyjohnst,

Your mother-in-law has a right of residence in Ireland as she is a person described in Article 3(2) of the Directive. That is, she was a member of the household of the Union citizen in the country from which they came.

For the EUTR visa, proof of relationship together with proof that you lived under one roof in Azerbaijan shall be required. Once in Ireland, the same will be required for her application for a residence card - which I suggest should be made for ease of future visits if nothing else.

Dependency is not required, so no need for manufactured evidence of this.

andyjohnst,

Ben is right regarding article 3.2

However, the group comprising "other" family members have no ‘automatic’ right to accompany you to the host EU country or join you there. Their rights are subject to the host EU country’s discretion. I have tested this in Ireland and currently appealing the refusal decision.

According to the Directive, they have the right to have entry and residence ‘facilitated’. This essentially means that the host EU country should examine their family ties with you and, if they consider that you form a genuine family, they should be treated on the same footing as family members such as spouses or children. It does 'appear' however, that they CANNOT be compelled to approve an application.

The Directive expects the host EU country by obligation to undertake an "extensive examination" of their personal circumstances and refusal of entry and residence to those family members must be justified, notified in writing and is subject to an appeal.

I am currently at the above status with them on my mother-in-law.

However, I spoke with SOLVIT Ireland who transferred the case to SOLVIT UK (I am a British) and was advised by SOLVIT UK that based on some rulings the most practical and arguable route is the "dependency" route

At the moment, I have supplied further evidence as requested by the Irish embassy and awaiting their response. They gave a 4-6weeks time frame for responses, this is the forth week so not too long to go.

The challenge for me will be: what will be the next line of action if the application is refused for another flimsy reason? I will definitely have to invoke the Directive and escalate through SOLVIT as far as is possible.

All the best!

[andyjohnst]

Thanks guys. Good reading material.

Adlexy. What did they say in the refusal for the mother-in-law?

How can one provide proof that we stayed under the same roof in Azerbaijan?

[Ben]

Adlexy. What did they say in the refusal for the mother-in-law?

Additionally, how did you demonstrate that you mother-in-law is a person described in Article 3(2)?

How can one provide proof that we stayed under the same roof in Azerbaijan?

Only you can answer that really. Your mother-in-law will likely have things stating her address, but do you? Do you have any bank statements or other documents with your Azerbaijan address?

[andyjohnst]

No. nothing. I was going for the long hall but then decided to come here.

Going to be a tough one.

[Ben]

Is there any third party that you know of in Azerbaijan - preferably somebody of good standing like a doctor or police officer etc - who could write a letter to confirm that you were living at said address in Azerbaijan for said period?

[andyjohnst]

Well the letter of invitation (from my wife inviting me to Azerbaijan)for the visit visa for Azerbaijan states that I would be living at that address. This was supplied to the Azerbaijan Embassy in London.

Could this help in anyway?

[Ben]

I'm not sure that letter alone would be concrete enough. If you can't produce anything else to affirm your address in Azerbaijan, maybe you should go down the dependency route after all.

[andyjohnst]

Does the dependency have to be in the old country or the new one? I'm a little confused.

[Ben]

Does the dependency have to be in the old country or the new one? I'm a little confused.

In the old country.

[adlexy]

Adlexy. What did they say in the refusal for the mother-in-law?

Additionally, how did you demonstrate that you mother-in-law is a person described in Article 3(2)?

How can one provide proof that we stayed under the same roof in Azerbaijan?

Only you can answer that really. Your mother-in-law will likely have things stating her address, but do you? Do you have any bank statements or other documents with your Azerbaijan address?

Adlexy. What did they say in the refusal for the mother-in-law?

They were looking for further proof that she is actually my mother in law and a proof of "relatedness"

To which I sent in my marriage certificate, showing the maiden name of my wife and her birth certificate which shows both of her parent's full names.

The challenge was and probably is that I am still unable to prove dependency which appears to be a critical requirement in this drama.

I have no proof that she was staying in the same address with us in our country of origin.

I could only prove that she is my mother in law, and as of that point, I did not show any proof of "dependency" which incidentally I found out was critical to the application

[Ben]

Ok well then in fairness -

I have tested this in Ireland and currently appealing the refusal decision.

You haven't really "tested" it at all, if I may say so, because you failed to provide adequate documentation to prove that your mother-in-law is a person described in Article 3(2).

They were looking for further proof that she is actually my mother in law and a proof of "relatedness"

To which I sent in my marriage certificate, showing the maiden name of my wife and her birth certificate which shows both of her parent's full names.

This really should have been submitted as part of the initial application. Failure to provide proof of relationship alone is perfectly adequate grounds for refusal.

The challenge was and probably is that I am still unable to prove dependency which appears to be a critical requirement in this drama.

I have no proof that she was staying in the same address with us in our country of origin.

I could only prove that she is my mother in law, and as of that point, I did not show any proof of "dependency" which incidentally I found out was critical to the application

You either need to show that she was a member of your household or that she was dependent on you. Either category needs to be reasonably demonstrated though, otherwise it cannot be reasonably argued that refusal is unjustified.

[adlexy]

Ok well then in fairness -

I have tested this in Ireland and currently appealing the refusal decision.

You haven't really "tested" it at all, if I may say so, because you failed to provide adequate documentation to prove that your mother-in-law is a person described in Article 3(2).

They were looking for further proof that she is actually my mother in law and a proof of "relatedness"

To which I sent in my marriage certificate, showing the maiden name of my wife and her birth certificate which shows both of her parent's full names.

This really should have been submitted as part of the initial application. Failure to provide proof of relationship alone is perfectly adequate grounds for refusal.

The challenge was and probably is that I am still unable to prove dependency which appears to be a critical requirement in this drama.

I have no proof that she was staying in the same address with us in our country of origin.

I could only prove that she is my mother in law, and as of that point, I did not show any proof of "dependency" which incidentally I found out was critical to the application

You either need to show that she was a member of your household or that she was dependent on you. Either category needs to be reasonably demonstrated though, otherwise it cannot be reasonably argued that refusal is unjustified.

Apart from my wife's BC which I submitted originally, with the application, I did not realise a my marriage certificate and my mother in law's marraige certificate would be required - I think the request for proof is stretched.

Ben, I came away with that "unjustified" perception because the letter also requested for a "proof of fund" and statement of account for my Mother-in-law! I could be wrong but I do not remember anywhere in the directive wher she has to submit proof of fund; especially as she WILL be travelling with me - stated clearly in the application and cover notes!

And then further request that she should include letters from her employers to ensure that she is due to return to her job after the visit.

I think what happened was that the visa officer drifted away from the requirements of the visa for EUTR and is treating it as a general visa application!

However, in the appeal, I have stated the relevant Articles in the Directive and also sent ALL the listed documents.

I think I underestimated their capability to request for more documents even outside the scope of the Directive - of course, I may be wrong again

[Ben]

Apart from my wife's BC which I submitted originally, with the application, I did not realise a my marriage certificate and my mother in law's marraige certificate would be required - I think the request for proof is stretched.

Definitely your marriage certificate would be required because this is the only document that provides proof of her relationship to you, the EU national. I don't really see the point of submitting your mother-in-law's own marriage certificate though. I mean, what's that supposed to prove?

Ben, I came away with that "unjustified" perception because the letter also requested for a "proof of fund" and statement of account for my Mother-in-law! I could be wrong but I do not remember anywhere in the directive wher she has to submit proof of fund; especially as she WILL be travelling with me - stated clearly in the application and cover notes!

And then further request that she should include letters from her employers to ensure that she is due to return to her job after the visit.

I think what happened was that the visa officer drifted away from the requirements of the visa for EUTR and is treating it as a general visa application!

However, in the appeal, I have stated the relevant Articles in the Directive and also sent ALL the listed documents.

I think I underestimated their capability to request for more documents even outside the scope of the Directive - of course, I may be wrong again

Yes, I think you're right. The officer dealing with the application does indeed seem to be drifting away from the fact that it's an EUTR visa being applied for. The documents he's looking for certainly seem to indicate that he's treating it as a standard visit visa.

If your mother-in-law is dependent on you in the country from which she is coming, it's not unreasonable though that her finances come in to question. However, if instead she was a member of your household in the country from which she is coming, the only burden of proof is that of the address - finances or dependency doesn't come in to it.

[treefriend]

Hi Ben and everyone else,
I have UK RC and my mother is here in the UK on six month tourist visa. She is solely dependent on me. I have money transfer receipts and other proofs to show this dependency.

I and my wife are planning to move to Ireland permanently and want to take our mother with us on EU family permit.

Can you please help me to make this important decision of our lives? We don't want her to go back.

Is it possible?
How we can apply for it?
What documents may be asked?

Thanks in advance

[Ben]

Hi Ben and everyone else,
I have UK RC and my mother is here in the UK on six month tourist visa. She is solely dependent on me. I have money transfer receipts and other proofs to show this dependency.

I and my wife are planning to move to Ireland permanently and want to take our mother with us on EU family permit.

Can you please help me to make this important decision of our lives? We don't want her to go back.

Is it possible?
How we can apply for it?
What documents may be asked?

Thanks in advance

Hello treefriend.

Relax. Assuming that your wife is an EU national, she has the right to move to Ireland in accordance with European law and bring her family members with her - that means you and your mother as she is dependent on / a member of the household of your wife.

What country are you each a national of?

[treefriend]

Hello treefriend.

Relax. Assuming that your wife is an EU national, she has the right to move to Ireland in accordance with European law and bring her family members with her - that means you and your mother as she is dependent on / a member of the household of your wife.

What country are you each a national of?

thanks Ben for providing some comfort. I have sent you PM

[Ben]

Ok, if your wife intends to work or study (or be financially self-sufficient) in Ireland then you and your mother have the right to join her.

Apart from your passports, you will need to furnish your marriage cert. Your mother will need to provide proof that she's a member of your wife's household or is dependent on her.

You and your mother will either need to firstly obtain an EUTR visa from the Irish embassy in London or enter via Northern Ireland.

[treefriend]

Ok, if your wife intends to work or study (or be financially self-sufficient) in Ireland then you and your mother have the right to join her.

Apart from your passports, you will need to furnish your marriage cert. Your mother will need to provide proof that she's a member of your wife's household or is dependent on her.

You and your mother will either need to firstly obtain an EUTR visa from the Irish embassy in London or enter via Northern Ireland.

OK Thanks Ben. On marriage certificate it clearly says that my mother name. Once in Ireland I understand that I and my mother need to apply for RC. I know it would be painless for me but would it be straightforward for her as well as she is extended family member and state assert its own discretion such applicants.

If she go via NI, would not that be illegal?

[Ben]

Ok, if your wife intends to work or study (or be financially self-sufficient) in Ireland then you and your mother have the right to join her.

Apart from your passports, you will need to furnish your marriage cert. Your mother will need to provide proof that she's a member of your wife's household or is dependent on her.

You and your mother will either need to firstly obtain an EUTR visa from the Irish embassy in London or enter via Northern Ireland.

OK Thanks Ben. On marriage certificate it clearly says that my mother name. Once in Ireland I understand that I and my mother need to apply for RC. I know it would be painless for me but would it be straightforward for her as well as she is extended family member and state assert its own discretion such applicants.

Extended Family Member is a UK term, so try to avoid using it because it might confuse Irish authorities. But I know what you mean, your mother is a Beneficiary described in Article 3(2) of the Directive. The Irish European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006 call such person a "permitted family member".

Your mother will need to provide evidence either that she is dependent on your wife or that she is a member of her household.

If she go via NI, would not that be illegal?

No, not at all. Entering Ireland from the UK via the uncontrolled land-border is entirely lawful, providing you each enter with your passports and proof of your entitlement to enter and reside in accordance with the Directive. That is, your marriage certificate in your case and, in your mother's case, evidence either that she is dependent on your wife or that she is a member of her household.