Northern Irish. Renounce british citizenship. Non eu spouse

[MrWolf]

Hi,

This is a cross post from the Ireland forum. Someone suggested this might be a better place for it.

I am a British citizen born and living in Northern Ireland.

My wife is American. We got married in USA 2 years ago, and she is still there finishing up some financial obligations.

I have dual citizenship and have just applied for an Irish passport.

I was told today by my solicitor that if I formally renounce my British citizenship and own an Irish passport that I can exercise my rights as an EU citizen and bring my wife into Ireland.

He told me that we are then allowed to live in northern Ireland for 3 months at a time and that crossing the border to the south and coming back again resets the 3 month timer. He told me this can be done indefinitely until we successfully apply for residency for my wife.

He told me that my wife can get a residency as long as I am either employed, a jobseeker(claiming jobseeker allowance), or a full time student, but that my wife needs to have arranged health insurance.

I was also told that if we are living together for, i think he said 3 years, then she is automatically given residency.

He told me that my wife is allowed to work, while the application is being processed.

Does anyone know someone who has done this?

Or know of any reason any of this would not work?

Thanks.

[tanabrennan]

Yes, he is absolutely right. Read the Good Friday Agreement. Anyone one Born as a Northern Irish can either chose to be a British or an Irish or can be both. These laws only apply to Northern Irish Citizen not everyone with Dual Nationalities of British/Irish. In Northern Ireland you can claim you were born as an Irish if you have never formally hold a British passport and if you do, you can renounce it. In Northern Ireland, as a Northern Irish born, you can be the First Minister of Northern Ireland as a politician even if you do not hold a British passport. That is Northern Ireland law.
That is why in Northern Ireland you have the Republicans and the Nationalist. Those that don’t want to be called British and those that don’t want to be called Irish and those that wants to be called both. If you live in Northern Ireland you will know better the reasons why this law is applicable to you when you cast your mind back to years of disturbances, killings and bombings in Northern Ireland, no one need to tell you this.
As an Irish, Born Irish, Working or has worked as an Irish, your family member is allow to live with you in UK as a family member of an EEA and they are allow to work and claim benefits.

[tanabrennan]

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of ... or_workers

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... on/17/made

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/mov ... dex_en.htm

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... &type=HTML

it will enlight you more....

If you are not married and have been cohabitating with an EU Partner for 2yrs, your non eea partner will be qualified for a residence card.

[MrWolf]

Excellent.

Thanks for the info.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Renouncing your citizenship is a possible option, but it is a big step.

What about moving to any other EU member state (including Ireland) and getting a job at McDonalds (or anywhere else) for 3 months. Your wife and the rest of the family can come with you and also immediately work or do whatever they want.

After 3 months, you can if you want move to the UK also on the basis of EU law.

Good Friday agreement may also be an option. Not sure if I fully understand it though.

[tanabrennan]

In the OP situation, he can no longer use good friday agreement because he has firstly chose to be a british and getting an irish passport is now the second option, if OP have chose to be only irish from the onset like the republicans born in NI would have been a straight move, now he has to move to ireland for 3mths as advice or renounced.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

In the OP situation, he can no longer use good friday agreement because he has firstly chose to be a british and getting an irish passport is now the second option, if OP have chose to be only irish from the onset like the republicans born in NI would have been a straight move, now he has to move to ireland for 3mths as advice or renounced.

What exactly does the good friday agreement say about such citizenship decisions.

[tanabrennan]

NI is one of the only country in Europe that its citizens can decide their own fate on citizenship,i heard of another country in cyprus but not as effective as NI. During the time Ireland withdraw from UK, NI in the Irish island refuses to join because of religious differences and call on the UK to protect them from the ragging war from ireland,this war last for a century until 1998 that a peace accord was found between UK and Ireland to allow the citizen of ireland to decides their own fate which was accepted by both countries. Their are many citizen that dont want anything to be british, they are the catholic and those that still want to join british, they the protestant. For a peace to go on an agreement was made. A born citizen of NI can chose which country they wants to pay allegance to, it is either Ireland or Britain or both. So under international law, any citizen of NI that dont want to be a british can be only Irish not british, even though NI is included to UK.

[tanabrennan]

One more point, till today Ireland still regards NI as their own country and all NI counties is in their government legislation likewise NI but UK as a whole do accept that only NI do which is a country inside UK do. NI address and utility bills are accepted in Ireland in some of the governmental requirements like marriage, business, foreign nationalizing etc. While UK as a whole dont. The second Minister of NI in the UK upper house of common hold only irish passport but was born in NI and will not allow you to call him british, he is a former leader and renounce IRA rebel member fighting the british army in NI. Even their are some NI governmental rules that are different from the rest countries in UK e.g child abortion in a crime in NI while it is not in the rest of UK.

[smalldog]

What exactly does the good friday agreement say about such citizenship decisions.

That the British and Irish governments "recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose."

Full text here: http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

ARTICLE 1
The two Governments:

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

I am not sure exactly what this means, and how it has impact on European free movement rights. The highlighted section feels very vague to me, or at least I do not know how to interpret it in a legal sense.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

ARTICLE 1
The two Governments:

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

I am not sure exactly what this means, and how it has impact on European free movement rights. The highlighted section feels very vague to me, or at least I do not know how to interpret it in a legal sense.

I share your doubts. As I read the situation, a person born in the part of the UK called Northern Ireland who meets the requirements of the British Nationality act is British, (of course they don't need to identify themselves as being British, but is that not a different matter). They are also entitled to be Irish as Ireland grants such persons citizenship if they so wish. Such a person, can be a dual national if they so wish. The agreement promises to not change the principle that people born in Northern Ireland can be British, Irish or both should Northern Ireland wish to become part of Ireland politically. Presumably, if this were to happen, the British Nationality Act would have to be amended to accommodate this.

I stand to be corrected by those who know more.

[MrWolf]

According to my solicitor something was changed recently that made it more difficult for me to simply claim that I am Irish and use the EEA- route for my wife. He believes this change goes against the good Friday agreement which states that I should have exactly the same rights as a northern Irish British person or a northern Irish Irish person.

But he tells me that if I formally renounce my British citizenship then I can use the EEA-route for my wife.

However he thinks that I should apply for the EEA-route while still being a British citizen and holding an Irish passport as he wants to fight the decision in court because he thinks the recent change is unjust and against the spirit of the good Friday agreement and he wants to set a new legal precedent.

I don't remember what it was he said changed, as I was too excited at the fact that I now had an option available to me to bring my wife here.


My wife does not want to fight the change in court. She just wants to get here with a minimum of fuss.

I have always considered myself British and traveled on my British passport, but if it gets my wife here I will happily be Irish for a while, though I have family members to whom renouncing British citizenship would be considered practically treasonous.

[Obie]

There is a strong force in the Good Friday agreement argument if the person is a Citizen but never applied for a British Passport, rather the person from the onset has claimed Irish Citizenship and never considered themselves british.

If however there is evidence that Irish Nationality was only sought to enable a family member to seek residence under community law, it is difficult to use the Good friday argument, especially if there is evidence the person previously held Irish Citizenship. The religion of the person, or denomination of the person will all factor in such circumstance.

It will be difficult for a Protestant, Unionist to say they have closer affiliation to Republic of Ireland, whiles a Republican or Catholic will have more basis for making such claim.

This should not be interpreted as meaning, that all Protestant will feel more British than Irish.

[el patron]

There is a strong force in the Good Friday agreement argument if the person is a Citizen but never applied for a British Passport, rather the person from the onset has claimed Irish Citizenship and never considered themselves british.

If however there is evidence that Irish Nationality was only sought to enable a family member to seek residence under community law, it is difficult to use the Good friday argument, especially if there is evidence the person previously held Irish Citizenship. The religion of the person, or denomination of the person will all factor in such circumstance.

It will be difficult for a Protestant, Unionist to say they have closer affiliation to Republic of Ireland, whiles a Republican or Catholic will have more basis for making such claim.

This should not be interpreted as meaning, that all Protestant will feel more British than Irish.

This may come across as cheesy! but true love conquers all, particularly nationality identity crises!

You recall my advice very well Mr Wolf! Permanent residency after 5 years rather than 3 years, otherwise you have good recollection!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

According to my solicitor something was changed recently that made it more difficult for me to simply claim that I am Irish and use the EEA- route for my wife.

What has changed is the immigration regulations (EEA). Rather bluntly, the UK government has implemented the McCarthy ECJ ruling in a way that precludes British nationals availing of the possibility of using a second EU nationality to benefit from its terms. There were particular circumstances in the McCarthy case that will not apply to others.

UK national can still use the Singh route.

[MrWolf]

Ahh. Thanks for the clarification.

[JAJ]

According to my solicitor something was changed recently that made it more difficult for me to simply claim that I am Irish and use the EEA- route for my wife. He believes this change goes against the good Friday agreement which states that I should have exactly the same rights as a northern Irish British person or a northern Irish Irish person.

But he tells me that if I formally renounce my British citizenship then I can use the EEA-route for my wife.

Have you considered sponsoring for a spouse visa under the Immigration Rules?

[tanabrennan]

Northern Irish citizen is a birth right and British Northern Ireland citizen is a birth right under the same citizenship act in UK and in Ireland. If you live in NI then you will understand. A person from county derry, Newry, Omagh and Belfast who do not regard himself as british apply for eea for his/her spouse, ukba cannot force british on him because by law he has right to regard himself as only irish even though was born in NI a Uk territory and island irish regards belongs to them not british. If you come to NI you will see irish yellow white and green flad flying in many places. You cannot place a british flag in this areas.
I am not guessing, i live there and have family there, that will tell you they are not british even though they were born in NI, many NI people regards them as republicans. So it will be wrong to force british citizen on them by ukba because by law UK is not allow and cannot force citizenship on them even though they were born in UK territory.

[tanabrennan]

OP situation is now totally different, op have first chose to be a british, chosing irish now is a second option which will make him a dual citizen and fall under the new eea regulation, renouncing is only an option. If it was Irish he chose in the first place, he would be regarded as an irish under the good friday agreement that is recognized by UK but now he want to chose both and that make him a dual Irish/British citizen.

[Ben]

One more point, till today Ireland still regards NI as their own country

Nope, not since the GFA. The Irish constitution was changed.

Northern Irish citizen is a birth right and British Northern Ireland citizen is a birth right under the same citizenship act in UK and in Ireland. If you live in NI then you will understand. A person from county derry, Newry, Omagh and Belfast who do not regard himself as british apply for eea for his/her spouse, ukba cannot force british on him because by law he has right to regard himself as only irish even though was born in NI a Uk territory and island irish regards belongs to them not british. If you come to NI you will see irish yellow white and green flad flying in many places. You cannot place a british flag in this areas.
I am not guessing, i live there and have family there, that will tell you they are not british even though they were born in NI, many NI people regards them as republicans. So it will be wrong to force british citizen on them by ukba because by law UK is not allow and cannot force citizenship on them even though they were born in UK territory.

Sorry, but that's largely tripe.

Under British nationality law, a person born in the UK (under qualifying conditions) is a British citizen otherwise than by descent automatically, by nature of his birth. Application or possession of a British passport is not required for this to be true. Non-application or not possessing a British passport does not undo this fact either.

Under Irish nationality law, a person born anywhere on the island of Ireland (under qualifying conditions) is entitled to be an Irish citizen, and is so once he performs an action that only an Irish citizen can perform, such as to apply for an Irish passport. Until such action however, he is not an Irish citizen, he just has an un-activated right to be so.

To say "So it will be wrong to force british citizen on them by ukba because by law UK is not allow and cannot force citizenship on them even though they were born in UK territory." is utter nonsense and bears no truth whatsoever.

OP, renouncing British citizenship is a big step and costs money. However, it can be subsequently reclaimed (only once) for a further fee. In your situation, renunciation of British citizen is required in order to furnish your wife with a right of residence in the UK under EC law, without you having to move anywhere.

However, and really just echoing the other useful comments on-thread, you should consider the option of moving to Ireland (Rep of.) for a few months (six months, preferably), being employed there, then returning to Northern Ireland. Put simply, this would mean that, on your return to the UK, you would be regarded as an EEA national for the purpose of the UK's EEA Regulations, even though you would be a British citizen.

Another option, as JAJ said, is to consider sponsoring your wife under the Immigration Rules. Costs money and has more detailed application procedures, but might actually save you money in the long run. Again, no renunciation of British citizenship required.

Good luck.

[smalldog]

OP, renouncing British citizenship is a big step and costs money. However, it can be subsequently reclaimed (only once) for a further fee.

I believe it can only be reclaimed if the reason for renouncing it is when it is required to acquire another citizenship, which is not the case in this situation.

[Ben]

OP, renouncing British citizenship is a big step and costs money. However, it can be subsequently reclaimed (only once) for a further fee.

I believe it can only be reclaimed if the reason for renouncing it is when it is required to acquire another citizenship, which is not the case in this situation.

The wording on the UKBA website is interesting:

You have a right, only once, to register as a British citizen if you gave up your citizenship to keep or gain another citizenship.

"If you gave up your citizenship to keep or gain another citizenship" is not as restrictive as, say, "if you gave up your citizenship as it was a condition of the third country that you did so, in order to keep or gain citizenship of the third country".

I don't know what the legislation is behind resumption of citizenship, but if the wording on the website is to be taken at face value, then if a British citizen renounces his British citizenship in advance of applying for an Irish passport (thus becoming an Irish citizen, having activated his right to do so), then he did indeed give up his citizenship to keep or gain another citizenship.

[smalldog]

I don't know what the legislation is behind resumption of citizenship, but if the wording on the website is to be taken at face value, then if a British citizen renounces his British citizenship in advance of applying for an Irish passport (thus becoming an Irish citizen, having activated his right to do so), then he did indeed give up his citizenship to keep or gain another citizenship.

But if you check the documents that need to be provided to apply for resumption of citizenship it says you need: "Evidence that if you had not given up your citizenship you would have lost or failed to acquire your current citizenship or nationality. You should send: a letter or statement confirming this from the authorities of the country concerned."

Ireland permits dual citizenship so it is not necessary to renounce British citizenship to take up Irish citizenship.

Source: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... documents/

[Ben]

Ah, good find. Well that's that then: no resumption of British citizenship unless renouncing it was necessary in order to become a citizen / retain the citizenship of a third country.

As Ireland doesn't have a problem with dual or multi nationality, then if the OP chooses to renounce his British citizenship under the circumstances described - he can't get it back.