Question about youth EEA permit

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:12 pm

I tried doing some searching on the board but got a little overwhelmed. I did not see my particular question anywhere.

My husband is an EU national and we will be applying for the EEA family permits.
It seems my 19 year old may want to come with us to England. I already know I need to fill out applications for myself (USC) and my 15 year old (also USC) and know I don't need to fill anything out for my 11 year old or my 9 year old who are both dual USC and EU- but my 19 year old is USC- so I know I will need to fill out an application for him too.
Question is, since he is under 21 and still living at home he is allowed to come with us, but what happens once he turns 21? He won't have lived there long enough to qualify for citizenship, will he still be able to keep his EEA family permit and remain there when he turns 21? I don't see anything about this on UKBA and am hoping someone here knows about this.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:03 pm

Does USC mean Citizen of the USA?

Suspect it does. The requirement for benefiting from the directive 2004/38/EC can be found here.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:en:PDF

Those under 21 can benefit from the directive, those over 21 need to be dependent on the EU citizen.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:12 pm

You may find this post interesting.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=109477

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:41 pm

Thank you EUsmileWEallsmile,

Yes, USC means United States Citizen- sorry, I should have specified.

So I followed both links you supplied and the first just confused me and the second led me to believe I don't even have to apply at all for EEA family permits? The UKBA site states something similar (in confusing terms) but it also states they suggest you do apply and obtain the EEA family permit.

My question ultimately is since my son is 19 (will be closer to 20 when we move actually) what happens once he turns 21, will he then be seen as not being allowed to remain in the UK under the EEA family permit.
I'm copying from UKBA the section I am referring to.

If you are an EEA or Swiss national, your non-EEA family members who have the right of residence in the UK are:

your husband, wife or civil partner;
your children or grandchildren (or the children or grandchildren of your husband, wife or civil partner) who are under 21 years of age or are dependent on you; and
the parents or grandparents of you and your husband, wife or civil partner, if they are dependent on you.

So if I go by what it says here, he is under 21 and allowed to live in the UK- what happens when he is living in the UK and is over 21 and let's say no longer dependent on us?

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:22 am

If your son is no longer dependent on you, then he would have no right of residence with you.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:24 am

Beccarose wrote: So I followed both links you supplied and the first just confused me and the second led me to believe I don't even have to apply at all for EEA family permits? The UKBA site states something similar (in confusing terms) but it also states they suggest you do apply and obtain the EEA family permit?

The UK would "prefer" you to obtain a family permit, but as a visa national you don't have to.

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:26 pm

If your son is no longer dependent on you, then he would have no right of residence with you.

So you're saying if a 19 year old got an EEA family permit with his family to move to the UK- he would have to live with and be dependent on his family for the whole time he is in the UK?

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:27 pm

The UK would "prefer" you to obtain a family permit, but as a visa national you don't have to.

I'm not a visa national, I am a United States Citizen, as are my 2 oldest children. It is just my husband and my two youngest children that are EU nationals.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:15 pm

Beccarose wrote:
If your son is no longer dependent on you, then he would have no right of residence with you.
So you're saying if a 19 year old got an EEA family permit with his family to move to the UK- he would have to live with and be dependent on his family for the whole time he is in the UK?

No, it's just that he would only have to prove the relationship to the EU national. After the age of 21 he would have to prove that he was dependent on the EU national - eg still at university perhaps.

The most important thing is the activities of the EU national family member, they need to be a worker (inc self-employed), self-sufficient or a student (some restrictions apply as to which family members can accompany students). If the EU family member meets these requirements, then his family members can live with him. These are all detailed in the directive 2004/38/EC.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:17 pm

Beccarose wrote:
The UK would "prefer" you to obtain a family permit, but as a visa national you don't have to.
I'm not a visa national, I am a United States Citizen, as are my 2 oldest children. It is just my husband and my two youngest children that are EU nationals.

Great - so the thread I'd posted earlier should interest you.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:19 pm

It would be a good idea for you to read this document.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:23 am

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
Beccarose wrote:
The UK would "prefer" you to obtain a family permit, but as a visa national you don't have to.
I'm not a visa national, I am a United States Citizen, as are my 2 oldest children. It is just my husband and my two youngest children that are EU nationals.
Great - so the thread I'd posted earlier should interest you.

Ok, I've read a fair amount of that thread (thank you so much for linking it!) and am wondering, if the case is such that an EEA family permit is actually not even necessary to move to the UK, then why do so many people apply for the EEA family permit? Are most of them applying for distant relatives or why are EEA family permits such a big thing if they are not even necessary.
I'm so confused!

If by being the wife of an EU national I can move to England without obtaining any permit before moving (I know I need to obtain a residence card after moving there), is this the same for the children I had before my marriage to my EU national husband? Or do I need to obtain EEA family permits for them? They are 15 and 19 years old.

And another question, what is the difference between EEA1, EEA2, EEA3 and so on? Is there somewhere that explains all of the different applications and permits?

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:15 pm

Visa nationals will not be allowed to board a plane without a visa, that is the fundamental difference.

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:08 pm

Visa nationals will not be allowed to board a plane without a visa, that is the fundamental difference.

I'm so sorry, but would you please expand on that?

I did a google search for Visa Nationals and came across a long list of countries that the US is not a part of, but I can't say I really understand what a visa national is?

And would you happen to have an answer for the second part of my questions, about my children what are not the biological children of my husband (the EU national)?

And why the difference in EEA permit types, 1,2,3 and 4?

No_marriage_certificate · Post by **No_marriage_certificate** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:54 am

Beccarose wrote:
Visa nationals will not be allowed to board a plane without a visa, that is the fundamental difference.
I'm so sorry, but would you please expand on that?

I did a google search for Visa Nationals and came across a long list of countries that the US is not a part of, but I can't say I really understand what a visa national is?

And would you happen to have an answer for the second part of my questions, about my children what are not the biological children of my husband (the EU national)?

And why the difference in EEA permit types, 1,2,3 and 4?

Hi there,

It appears your original question about "what happens when my son turns 19 " has not been answered. I will attempt to answer it now:
Assuming like you stated earlier, by the time you apply your son is 20. EEA family permits are normally issued for a 5 year period. So it means that if your son was issued one at the age of 20, he will still have it till he is 25 years of age. Whether he turns 21 or not tommorow for example, it doesn't change/ cancel the 5 year permit that will have already been issued. What you need to actually concern yourself with is what happens at the end of the 5 year permit period I.e. when he is 25 years old. Now it could be 1 of the following
1) if your EU national husband is still exercising treaty rights (working) then you and your son can apply for permanent residence (ILR) but this is based on the assumption that your son will not be already living an independent life( married, lives alone etc)
2) even if he was now independent, I do think that a certain level of discretion may be applied in his case since he got the permit whilst he was still under 21.

Therefore, if I were you I wouldn't worry much about what may/ may not happen in 5 years time as there is still always the option of moving back to the states.

With regards to your statement about you reading that family members of EU nationals do not need to apply for the permit you are correct. You are also wondering why people actually apply for it: the answer/reason is that If for example you wanted a job, a physical permit stamp in your passport is the ONLY proof that you are a family member of an EU citizen AND that Physical proof of your eligibility to work in the UK.

Here's why: imagine if it was possible to verbally tell people "hi, I am a family member of an EU citizen and I have the right to work here" then the system would have been severely abused because every Tom, Dick and Harry will claim the same even when they have no entitlements to it. In other words the world we live is not Conducive for mere verbal claims.

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:14 am

Here's why: imagine if it was possible to verbally tell people "hi, I am a family member of an EU citizen and I have the right to work here" then the system would have been severely abused because every Tom, Dick and Harry will claim the same even when they have no entitlements to it. In other words the world we live is not Conducive for mere verbal claims.

Sure, absolutely, makes perfect sense.
But would someone be allowed to forgo the EEA family permit, move to England and then apply for permanent residency? What are the chances of not being allowed in as a EU family member but instead as a visitor and if that happens then what would I do? And if we did not apply for family permits but just moved there and then applied from there for the 5 year permanent residency (assuming that's possible) would we have to wait until our permits came in before the kids could go to school or we could use the NHS?

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:29 am

My second thread was locked, I felt it was too different of a topic to carry on in this thread but apparently moderators thought it should go in here... sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, to jumble up this thread even more:
My husband and I have been married since Dec of 1999. I had 2 children from a previous marriage. My exhusband stepped in and out of the kids' lives for years and then about 5 years ago stepped out pretty extremely. He does not pay child support (and has not in about 8 years), does not contact them and does not show any affection or love for them.

My husband has quite literally in all ways that matter been their father, he does everything for them. In fact my second child was so young when he came into our lives that he is the only father she has ever really known.

So he really is their father- just not on paper. He has no legal rights when it comes to them.

Will I have a problem bringing them into the UK under a EEA family visa? I was originally under the idea that I just needed a consent letter from my oldest two children's bio-father stating he is allowing them to go live in England, but now I am not sure if that will be enough. Could someone inform me of what needs to be done?

Post by **Jambo** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:04 am

No_marriage_certificate wrote: With regards to your statement about you reading that family members of EU nationals do not need to apply for the permit you are correct. You are also wondering why people actually apply for it: the answer/reason is that If for example you wanted a job, a physical permit stamp in your passport is the ONLY proof that you are a family member of an EU citizen AND that Physical proof of your eligibility to work in the UK.

I have to disagree here. I believe the main reason people apply for EEA Family Permit is just lack of knowledge. They don't know they don't really need it. They assume that they will need a visa if they move to the UK permanently (makes sense if you are familiar with national immigration but not with EEA regulations) and they go to the HO website and get the impression that this is required (the HO have their own reasons to give this impression).

The EEA FP is NOT the only proof of your rights as a EEA family member. If you enter as a family member of EEA national, you will recieve a stamp in the passport that is as good as EEA FP. It might look less "official" and take less space but it allows employment from day 1.

Post by **Jambo** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:17 am

Beccarose wrote:What are the chances of not being allowed in as a EU family member but instead as a visitor and if that happens then what would I do? And if we did not apply for family permits but just moved there and then applied from there for the 5 year permanent residency (assuming that's possible) would we have to wait until our permits came in before the kids could go to school or we could use the NHS?

If you are a family member of EEA national and you are travelling together (or you joining him), there is no point to enter as a tourist (even if you just coming for a short visit). The requirements to enter as a family member are much simpler than a tourist. Your intentions are not relevant. If you present a marriage certificate, they must let you enter. Even if they have doubts, they can't refuse entry and deport you and they need to give you in country right of appeal.

Unlike the US, you will find it is much easier to get medical treatment in the UK. Schools might ask for the child immigration status but you shouldn't have problem registering them once you have proof of address (utility bill or tenancy agreement).

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:29 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:If your son is no longer dependent on you, then he would have no right of residence with you.

Nope, that's not quite right. There is another category which does not require dependence:

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 3(2) wrote:Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following persons:

(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen

In short OP, if your son is a member of the EU national's household then he has a right to have his entry to and residence in the UK facilitated. The UK refers to such persons as "extended family members".

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:58 am

If you are a family member of EEA national and you are travelling together (or you joining him), there is no point to enter as a tourist (even if you just coming for a short visit). The requirements to enter as a family member are much simpler than a tourist. Your intentions are not relevant. If you present a marriage certificate, they must let you enter. Even if they have doubts, they can't refuse entry and deport you and they need to give you in country right of appeal.

Is this stated somewhere officially that I could print out and take with us just in case we do run into issues?

Does anyone happen to have an answer to my second question about what I need to do to get my 15 year old daughter- who is not my husband's biological daughter- into the UK? As mentioned I was under the impression that a signed and notarized letter from her biological father would be enough proof for me to be able to move her with us but then it came to my attention that this may not be enough. Does anyone know?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:41 am

Beccarose wrote:
If you are a family member of EEA national and you are travelling together (or you joining him), there is no point to enter as a tourist (even if you just coming for a short visit). The requirements to enter as a family member are much simpler than a tourist. Your intentions are not relevant. If you present a marriage certificate, they must let you enter. Even if they have doubts, they can't refuse entry and deport you and they need to give you in country right of appeal.
Is this stated somewhere officially that I could print out and take with us just in case we do run into issues?

Does anyone happen to have an answer to my second question about what I need to do to get my 15 year old daughter- who is not my husband's biological daughter- into the UK? As mentioned I was under the impression that a signed and notarized letter from her biological father would be enough proof for me to be able to move her with us but then it came to my attention that this may not be enough. Does anyone know?

Did you see my post?

Post by **Jambo** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:51 am

Beccarose wrote:
If you are a family member of EEA national and you are travelling together (or you joining him), there is no point to enter as a tourist (even if you just coming for a short visit). The requirements to enter as a family member are much simpler than a tourist. Your intentions are not relevant. If you present a marriage certificate, they must let you enter. Even if they have doubts, they can't refuse entry and deport you and they need to give you in country right of appeal.
Is this stated somewhere officially that I could print out and take with us just in case we do run into issues?

See section 5.5 in Border Force Operations Manual - EEA Nationals & their family members.

Read a success story - I re-entered with expired Family Permit (non-VISA national).

Beccarose · Post by **Beccarose** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:54 pm

Did you see my post?
_________________

Yes, I did, thank you for that, but my question was more of wanting a link as to where I could print it right from the source- thank you Jambo!

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Question about youth EEA permit

Question about youth EEA permit