False Documentation: What are the consequences?

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:05 pm

My fiance obtained a false passport to enter the UK 2 years ago.He returned to his home country 4 months ago and we want to apply for a fiance visa next month for him to come back to the UK.

When we submit the visa application the lawyer dealing with our case has said he will have to disclose the fact that he came here with false documentation. As this is a criminal offence is there a chance he could get prosecuted and sent to prison in his home country? Obviously if this is the case then I won't go ahead with the visa as I would not want to see that happen.

If anyone has any advice or experience in this matter I would really appreciate it as I am so worried.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:18 pm

While I don't condone what your fiance has done, I think it would be extremely foolish to disclose a crime that he was never caught or charged for and that the Home Office has no way of ever finding out.

If I was him I would keep quiet about it and find a new lawyer because the one you have does not have your fiances best interests at heart!

Confess to a crime that noone knows he committed? Is he mad?

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:39 pm

I don't condone what my fiance has done and he is deeply ashamed of what he done but there are circumstances which led him to think this was the only way of providing for his mother and family and I'm not going to judge him.

If he did not own up to the fake passport then how could he possibly say he entered the UK. He never applied for a visa and is not an asylum seeker. I don't want him to lie as it would obviously all come out anyway! I just don't know what to do for the best!

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:51 pm

I don't condone lying and cheating but I do believe in looking out for one's best interests. Using forged documentation is a very serious crime and I would advise anyone to think very carefully before admitting to a crime that for which they have never been caught or charged.

Remember that while you should never lie on an application form, you are not obliged to provide information for which you are not specifically asked.

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:55 pm

So would you suggest to just answer the questions on the VAF2 honestly e.g. have you been to the UK before? YES
have you applied for a visa before? NO

and then if they give him an interview what should he do then?

I'm sorry for all of the questions but I am so worried that applying for this visa could be hassle than its worth and get my fiance into a lot of trouble.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:08 pm

BATS wrote:So would you suggest to just answer the questions on the VAF2 honestly e.g. have you been to the UK before? YES
have you applied for a visa before? NO

and then if they give him an interview what should he do then?

I'm sorry for all of the questions but I am so worried that applying for this visa could be hassle than its worth and get my fiance into a lot of trouble.

I'm sorry, I don't know what the answer is, but I pretty sure it's not confessing to a serious crime. Keep calm, stay cool and use your discretion.

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:17 am

I'm with Dawie in that volunteering adverse information may work against you when the HO has no way of getting that information independently. However, are you sure they have no record anywhere of his previous stay? He never used the NHS? Paid income tax? Applied for a licence?

In any event I'd say get another lawyer. And you can explain the situation to the new lawyer but use words like "What if he came here before on a false passport?" and "What would you advise he say on the form if - bear in mind that this is hypothetical - if he has committed a criminal act in the UK that he was never caught or prosecuted for?" The lawyer would get the picture but you haven't actually TOLD him anything.

There was a time when you could expect 100% confidentiality from professionals like lawyers and accountants. Then we got a Labour Government. Now, not only are professionals required to disclose a whole range of confidential information, it is actually mandatory. Further, it is a criminal offence if they don't volunteer it to the government. (The madness gets worse - even if they do volunteer it they commit a criminal offence if they don't declare it on the exact form for the offence they are reporting. So they can get 5 years for reporting their client on the wrong form but they can walk free if they rob a bank... providing it's their first offence. Sorry, rant over

)

I doubt however, that he would be prosecuted in his home country for a visa violation in the UK. Highly, highly unlikely for several reasons. If he walked into a British High Comm and confessed his crime they'd probably note it down somewhere and send him on his merry way. They can't be bothered to go reporting him to his government. Even if they did his government has likely has no laws preventing him from going to the UK without a visa

so what are they going to prosecute him for?

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:30 am

I'm with Dawie in that volunteering adverse information may work against you when the HO has no way of getting that information independently. However, are you sure they have no record anywhere of his previous stay? He never used the NHS? Paid income tax? Applied for a licence?

Even if he did do all of those things, they would have been done with whatever the false identity in his fake passport was, so there is still no way to trace it back to him. For all intents and purposes, he was never in the UK, his fake identity was.

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:54 pm

Dawie, that's if he did indeed come in a false name. The OP suggests only that he used a fake passport.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:05 pm

OL7MAX wrote:Dawie, that's if he did indeed come in a false name. The OP suggests only that he used a fake passport.

Well, based on what I saw from that Panorama programme on fake passports, it seems almost impossible to get a fake passport in your real name.

Most fake or forged passports are either stolen and the photo replaced with yours, or alternatively the passport is applied for from the issuing authority using a real person's name but with your photograph. Either way the name of the person making use of the fake or forged passport is never used.

In any case, only an idiot would use their real name on a forged document!

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:30 pm

In any case, only an idiot would use their real name on a forged document!

I'm not too sure about that. Particularly if you have educational/trade qualifications, certifications/licences etc. in your real name. But we could wait for clarification of the facts in this case.

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:06 pm

The passport was in another persons name. Not his name! Thanks for all your advice on this. I really appreicate it.

I just don't know how he can say he entered the UK without disclosing the info about the fake passport if he has to have an interview when applying for the visa?

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:53 pm

The good news is that the choices are very clear-cut: either play it completely honest .... or completely not.

Only he can decide.

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:21 pm

Thanks for your advice. I guess we will have to apply and hope he doesnt get called in for an interview. If he does then my fiance will have to tell the truth as there is no other explanantion as to him ending up in the UK.

jes2jes · Post by **jes2jes** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:26 pm

Well,

I will like to add my two cents to this. If the OP's fiancé came on a false passport then it is likely the ppt also was bearing a false name. The only thing will be the picture and wonderfully enough, there are hundreds of people who look like each other at any given point.

The OPF (OP's fiancé) can use his/her real name and details for the real application now and since he/she has not been to the UK with the new details, it will be impossible to prove unless, the OPF gives themselves up.

I can say that, if the OPF tells the BHC the truth, the local police can arrest him/her for committing a crime. All BHC has to do is detain the OPF on their grounds (British Soil) and handover this person to the police when they arrive. I am saying this because, I know of a case where an applicant used a false ppt to apply for a visa, when the ECO found that it was forged, they call the local police and the culprit was handed over.

It is in their best interest to seek legal advise and to take the position they desire. I am happy that all your posts (Dawie & OL7MAX) have not told him/her what to do since they have to swallow their own pill.

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:51 pm

Its easy for you to say my fiance has to suffer the consequences of his actions but to be fair I don't think that it is very constructive. I came here to ask for advice on the matter and see if anyone has experienced anything similar.

Thanks to everyone who has made a valuable contribution and your advice is helping us to make a thought out decision for we proceed with the visa application.

jes2jes · Post by **jes2jes** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:01 pm

BATS wrote:Its easy for you to say my fiance has to suffer the consequences of his actions but to be fair I don't think that it is very constructive. I came here to ask for advice on the matter and see if anyone has experienced anything similar.

Thanks to everyone who has made a valuable contribution and your advice is helping us to make a thought out decision for we proceed with the visa application.

BATS:
Which part of my post above suggests what you have posted? All I did was to give you my two cents on what will suffice in both scenerios so that you can make a decision.

Thanks anyway.

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:52 pm

Well we all know that he has done wrong. I wasn't over the moon when I found out how he got here, and he isn't exactly proud of what he done. We have decided to go and apply for the visa and see what happens.

Thanks again for everybodys advice and support.

clairey · Post by **clairey** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:16 pm

From our experience in the British Embassy visa section in Tirana, most of the processing is done by local (i.e. Albanian) staff, who really could not have cared less about what was on my husband's application form. When we tried to hand over our supporting evidence (all carefully filed into different sections), the women had a go at me and asked "Do you really expect me to read all that?" I think seeing a couple together at the visa section fretting over whether you'll get the visa or not helps to prove your case is genuine.

BATS, I know I told you by PM, my husband claimed asylum here without any documents. He went back to Albania with a laissez passer issued by the Albanian embassy in London. So technically, he had never applied for a visa, but we did meet in London, and that's what we put on his form. I think you'll be fine.

Lots of love

penanglad · Post by **penanglad** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:59 am

Your fiance has the right not to incriminate himself. He does not have to admit to anything unless he is specifically asked. Certainly he should not admit to having entered on a false passport.

The questions you ask are tricky - what country is he national of? I presume he could not have entered the UK without a visa?

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:18 am

He is from Albania (not Kosovan) and he couldn't have entered the UK without a visa.

Mafia · Post by **Mafia** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:30 pm

The Entry Clearance Officer will try to make a decision using the application form and the supporting documents that have been provided. If this is not possible, they may need to conduct an interview.

One of the criteria that needs to be satisfied is that both of you have met each other before. If the ECO asks this question, do you or your fiance have an answer? If he is technically never been to the UK, where have you met him? Can both of you back this up?

The Mafia ...

Mafia · Post by **Mafia** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:05 pm

OL7MAX wrote:There was a time when you could expect 100% confidentiality from professionals like lawyers and accountants. Then we got a Labour Government. Now, not only are professionals required to disclose a whole range of confidential information, it is actually mandatory. Further, it is a criminal offence if they don't volunteer it to the government. (The madness gets worse - even if they do volunteer it they commit a criminal offence if they don't declare it on the exact form for the offence they are reporting. So they can get 5 years for reporting their client on the wrong form but they can walk free if they rob a bank... providing it's their first offence. Sorry, rant over )

The Anti Money Laundering Regulations (ALMR) introduced by the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 did introduce such requirement to professional advisors such as lawyers or accountants although not as draconian as that described in your post.

Accountants were compelled to file a suspicious activity report or SAR to the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS) if they suspected money laundering. Initially NCIS was overwhelmed by an increase in reports as accountants felt compelled to disclose their suspicions. However amendments to S104 of the Act effective from 5 July 2005, removed some of these obligations. Accountants now need only file a SAR if they have detailed information or if the potential seriousness of the offence is in the public interest. Note NCIS has now been replaced by the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA).

In addition, lawyers do have certain reporting exemptions when encountering information in priviledged circumstances and where there is no issue of furtherance of a criminal purpose. I understand this exemption has since been extended to accountants acting in a similar capacity as a lawyer.

The Mafia ...

(who should know a thing or two about money laundering ...)

BATS · Post by **BATS** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:02 am

We have said on the form that we met in the UK and if my fiance has an interview then he will say how he came to the UK. Our lawyer working on the case told me at the first meeting that anything we said to her was confidential and that she did not work for the police or the home office and was not therefore obliged to tell them anything.

OL7MAX · Post by **OL7MAX** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:04 pm

...not as draconian as that described in your post....SAR .... National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS)... amendments to S104 of the Act effective from 5 July 2005... file a SAR if they have detailed information or ... in the public interest. NCIS has been replaced by the Serious Organised Crime Agency....

Accountants have years and years of training to take care of #1. An accountant's top priority is NOT saving you tax or presenting an accurate picture of your company - it is Covering His mule. As such, everything is in the "public interest" if anyone could ever point a finger at him and suggest it was in the public interest. Leave it to their discretion and you're just as deep in the doo-dah as before the change in wording.

To summarise, ten years ago I could trust my accountants and lawyers. They did mule wiping jobs for the government, yes, but as long I was paying their bills I could trust they were on my side. That is no more. And, from my local chambers of business I can assure you there are hundreds of other businesses who realise that the situation has changed dramatically and it's not in their favour.

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False Documentation: What are the consequences?

False Documentation: What are the consequences?