Applying for 2nd EEA FP when existing one is still valid.

[thk]

We moved to the UK (myself a British citizen and my wife non-EU) We had lived in France together for 3 years so came into the UK via the EEA route nearly 3 months ago. Due to various unfortunate circumstances that I'm not going to go into as it's far too long to explain, we're now coming to the end of her 6 months EEA FP which is going to expire in early Dec without having applied for another visa.

We'll be in France next week for a couple of weeks so can apply then for another EEA Family Permit - we've always had her various visa's back within 10 days before now so have time to get it before we return, but I wonder what they will make of us applying again when there is still a month left to go on her existing EEA FP? Any thoughts?

Many thanks,

Matt

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Is you intention to live in the UK or France?

Expiry of family permit does not mean that you cannot apply for a residence card in the UK.

[thk]

Is you intention to live in the UK or France?

We've moved to the UK from France, so wanting to stay in the UK.

Expiry of family permit does not mean that you cannot apply for a residence card in the UK.

That's not what we were told when we went for the PEO appointment - we were told that my wife had to leave the UK before the EEA Family Permit expired, although if we applied before the expiry she could stay as long as an application was in progress. We were told that she is not allowed to stay beyond the 6 month date on the FP - I asked specifically because I've heard on this forum that you only had to enter the UK within the time on the entry visa and stay as long as you like, just that you will have problems if you leave and try to re-enter.

They also told us that they don't consider the EEA FP to be a spouse visa (even though she applied as my spouse!) so even though we had the entry visa before the new rules came into force, we will fall under them, which was a bit of a shock!

(We couldn't actually go ahead with the one-day PEO application we had booked as when we turned up they were too stupid to deal with my self-employment status in one day and were told we could only apply by post - one of the reasons we're now getting close to the expiry date as we wasted nearly 2 months waiting for the PEO appointment!)

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Is you intention to live in the UK or France?

We've moved to the UK from France, so wanting to stay in the UK.

Expiry of family permit does not mean that you cannot apply for a residence card in the UK.

That's not what we were told when we went for the PEO appointment - we were told that my wife had to leave the UK before the EEA Family Permit expired, although if we applied before the expiry she could stay as long as an application was in progress. We were told that she is not allowed to stay beyond the 6 month date on the FP - I asked specifically because I've heard on this forum that you only had to enter the UK within the time on the entry visa and stay as long as you like, just that you will have problems if you leave and try to re-enter.

They also told us that they don't consider the EEA FP to be a spouse visa (even though she applied as my spouse!) so even though we had the entry visa before the new rules came into force, we will fall under them, which was a bit of a shock!

(We couldn't actually go ahead with the one-day PEO application we had booked as when we turned up they were too stupid to deal with my self-employment status in one day and were told we could only apply by post - one of the reasons we're now getting close to the expiry date as we wasted nearly 2 months waiting for the PEO appointment!)

What is a "PEO appointment"?

Are you working in the UK presently? What is your citizenship?

There is typically NO reason that forces your wife to leave the UK. So long as you (EU citizen person) are legally in the UK, then she can remain resident in the UK forever and ever without going through any additional formalities. And certainly no more EEA FPs.

What you must do: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/09 ... eed-to-do/
What she must do: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/05 ... a-citizen/

[smalldog]

That's not what we were told when we went for the PEO appointment - we were told that my wife had to leave the UK before the EEA Family Permit expired, although if we applied before the expiry she could stay as long as an application was in progress. We were told that she is not allowed to stay beyond the 6 month date on the FP - I asked specifically because I've heard on this forum that you only had to enter the UK within the time on the entry visa and stay as long as you like, just that you will have problems if you leave and try to re-enter.

It sounds like you were told a load of nonsense. I'm not sure why you had a PEO appointment as EEA applications are only dealt with through the post. It seems like you may be getting the EEA route and the UK route mixed up!

Under the EEA route (which your wife is on due to you having exercised treaty rights in France) your wife needs to apply for an EEA residence card through the post, and there is absolutely no problem doing this after the expiry of the family permit (although, however if you intend to come back from France after it expires and she is a visa national it would be advisable to get a new one). You could change to the UK route but I don't believe this is possible in the UK -- your wife would need to go back to France and apply for a spouse visa -- and yes she would fall under the new rules.

[thk]

What is a "PEO appointment"?

We were switching to an FLR(M) because I'm a British citizen, not a European one - with the PEO appointment you can go and get your application (FLR, not EEA) dealt with in one day, which isn't the case for the EEA2. I CANNOT have my passport removed from me for 6 months (or more) so we wanted it dealt with quickly.

Are you working in the UK presently? What is your citizenship?

I'm a UK/Britich citizen by birth, but because I was living in France for many years we used the EEA route (legally!) as the 'normal' UK route would have required me to come to the UK in advance of her and we didn't want that as we have a daughter together and don't really want to live apart for any length of time.

I am self-employed, as I was in France, and I registered as self-employed as soon as we entered the UK.

There is typically NO reason that forces your wife to leave the UK. So long as you (EU citizen person) are legally in the UK, then she can remain resident in the UK forever and ever without going through any additional formalities. And certainly no more EEA FPs.

That was my initial understanding, but I did ask the immigration officer specifically and was told she was only legally allowed to stay in the UK until the EEA FP expired, before that date she has to either apply for another visa (EEA2 or FLR(M) - our choice) or leave the UK.

The difficulty comes in the fact that we used European law to enter the UK as we were resident in Europe when we applied - nobody seems to understand it properly as they are all confused as to why she entered on an EEA visa when I am actually British because EEA is supposed to be used by European citizens.

What you must do: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/09 ... eed-to-do/
What she must do: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/05 ... a-citizen/

Will look into that, thanks.

[thk]

It sounds like you were told a load of nonsense. I'm not sure why you had a PEO appointment as EEA applications are only dealt with through the post. It seems like you may be getting the EEA route and the UK route mixed up!

You may be right, but it was the immigration officer who told me that! I think they can't get their heads around the fact that we've applied through the EEA route even though I'm British.

We wanted to change to the FLR(M) UK route because it could (so we though!) be dealt with in 1 day and I simply CANNOT be without my passport for 6 months/and indefinite amount of time - I know you can request it back,
but from what I've read that has varying degrees of success.

Under the EEA route (which your wife is on due to you having exercised treaty rights in France) your wife needs to apply for an EEA residence card through the post, and there is absolutely no problem doing this after the expiry of the family permit (although, however if you intend to come back from France after it expires and she is a visa national it would be advisable to get a new one). You could change to the UK route but I don't believe this is possible in the UK -- your wife would need to go back to France and apply for a spouse visa -- and yes she would fall under the new rules.

We can change to the UK route - that at least they did tell us, and I've had that confirmed by two sources!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

We can change to the UK route - that at least they did tell us, and I've had that confirmed by two sources!

I don't believe this, though if you do it please give us complete details of how you did it.

How long can you be without your passport? 1 month? Is your wife from a visa-required country with respect to the UK? Is she wanting to work in the UK?

But actually you probably can get a RC without sending in your passport. The issue of a Residence Card is dictated by the following EU law:

Article 10 - Issue of residence cards

1. The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called «Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen» no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application. A certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued immediately.

2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall require presentation of the following documents:
(a) a valid passport;
(b) a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;
(d) in cases falling under points (c) and (d) of Article 2(2), documentary evidence that the conditions laid down therein are met;
(e) in cases falling under Article 3(2)(a), a document issued by the relevant authority in the country of origin or country from which they are arriving certifying that they are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen, or proof of the existence of serious health grounds which strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;
(f) in cases falling under Article 3(2)(b), proof of the existence of a durable relationship with the Union citizen.

I don't think it mentions your passport at all. The only thing you are required by this is in bold.

[Jambo]

The caseworkers in the PEO are not familiar with European laws so I would be careful taking their advice. European applications are dealt in Liverpool.

You can ask for your passport back after applying and it will not affect the application. You don't need to keep it with the HO for the whole 6 months.

[smalldog]

Ok, I understand what you're trying to do. When I looked into the possibility of switching from the EEA route to the UK route a few years ago it was quite clearly not possible. When someone enters the UK on an EEA family permit they are not given leave to enter under the UK Immigration Rules and therefore cannot apply for further leave to remain. Things may have changed but I would treat your sources with a little doubt.

When you're trying to explain to officials how your wife is on an EEA family permit while you're a British citizen it might help if you mention the "Surinder Singh" rules.

Personally I would stick with the EEA route if I were you. The application for a residence card may take 6 months but I believe you can ask for passports back while it is being processed, and I expect you'd be able to get away with providing a copy of your passport rather than the original.

[thk]

We can change to the UK route - that at least they did tell us, and I've had that confirmed by two sources!

I don't believe this, though if you do it please give us complete details of how you did it.

How long can you be without your passport? 1 month?

Is your wife from a visa-required country with respect to the UK? Is she wanting to work in the UK?

Timed carefully I can live without my passport for 6 weeks.

Yes, she's from Morocco. We've come and gone many times over the past 4 years with visitor visa's applied for from France before, then when we decided to move to the UK so applied for the EEA FP, which came in exactly 14 days from her biometric appointment.

You can change routes, the officer I spoke to at Liverpool when we went for the PEO Appt phoned up and got it confirmed for us as she wasn't sure herself if we could. I've also spoken to the UKBA on the phone prior to this and they told me the same thing.

[thk]

The caseworkers in the PEO are not familiar with European laws so I would be careful taking their advice. European applications are dealt in Liverpool.

It was the Liverpool office we went to!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You can change routes, the officer I spoke to at Liverpool when we went for the PEO Appt phoned up and got it confirmed for us as she wasn't sure herself if we could. I've also spoken to the UKBA on the phone prior to this and they told me the same thing.

I don't think you can. And UKBA says that you can not. Get it in writing from them before you waste a lot of money on this.

If you apply under UK rules, she will not loose her right to remain even if her application is rejected. Her right to be here on the basis of the EU rules remains.

[thk]

Ok, I understand what you're trying to do. When I looked into the possibility of switching from the EEA route to the UK route a few years ago it was quite clearly not possible. When someone enters the UK on an EEA family permit they are not given leave to enter under the UK Immigration Rules and therefore cannot apply for further leave to remain. Things may have changed but I would treat your sources with a little doubt.

When you're trying to explain to officials how your wife is on an EEA family permit while you're a British citizen it might help if you mention the "Surinder Singh" rules.

Personally I would stick with the EEA route if I were you. The application for a residence card may take 6 months but I believe you can ask for passports back while it is being processed, and I expect you'd be able to get away with providing a copy of your passport rather than the original.

I've heard of the Surinder Singh rules, but not looked into it enough to understand it - I'll do that.

Thanks - I think we're kind of coming round to that idea now. It was just the huge delay in applying that put us off in the first place, but I think it's probably going to be the best route and just hope that I can get my passport back off them. It does say they will only accept the original passports, but I might try to send them a copy and see what happens. The DVLA only needed my passport number and photo to verify my identify for my UK driving licence when I re-applied for a UK Driving licence (having had a French one) for goodness sake, surely the damn UKBA have access to that same information!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

thk,

You should definitely try doing the application based on just a photocopy of your passport.

You might want to consider getting a UK solicitor to do a certified copy of the passport for you to send. You should also include other evidence that you are in fact living in the UK.

You should include the quote above from Directive 2004/38/EC. And include quotes from the case http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/IAC ... maica.html which is about the same thing, although in this case for a PR card when the EU citizen is no longer in the picture.

Worst case is they will refuse you quickly. And then you appeal. On appeal I suspect you will win.

"Surinder Singh rules" are exactly how your wife got the EEA FP. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... ional-law/

[smalldog]

That sounds sensible. Original passports are usually required but as in your case it's a UK passport they can just look you up in their database so it wouldn't be reasonable not to accept a copy.

[thk]

thk,

You should definitely try doing the application based on just a photocopy of your passport.
......

Thanks for all your help.

It's truly a screwed up system that gives EU citizens more rights to come and live in the UK with their family than a British citizen! I'm lucky we were living and working in France.

I'm not complaining about the EU, more the fact that the UK makes it bloody awkward to bring your wife to live with you if you're British! We've lived together for nearly 5 years, have a child together (who is British thank goodness) I work, my wife worked full-time in France until she gave up her job to move here (and intends to work here). She has a French resident card that allows her to travel and work anywhere in the EU (apart from the UK!!). Just damn frustrating! You would have thought me being British should be an advantage when wanting to bring my family back to my own country, pay my taxes here and spend our money here - not so it seems!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It's truly a screwed up system that gives EU citizens more rights to come and live in the UK with their family than a British citizen! I'm lucky we were living and working in France.

I'm not complaining about the EU, more the fact that the UK makes it bloody awkward to bring your wife to live with you if you're British! We've lived together for nearly 5 years, have a child together (who is British thank goodness) I work, my wife worked full-time in France until she gave up her job to move here (and intends to work here). She has a French resident card that allows her to travel and work anywhere in the EU (apart from the UK!!). Just damn frustrating! You would have thought me being British should be an advantage when wanting to bring my family back to my own country, pay my taxes here and spend our money here - not so it seems!

You can look at it in different ways.

Half empty: UKBA has a lot of problems and does some really wasteful stupid things

Half full: At least EU law is there and allows you easy move to other EU member states, and then easy return to the UK when you are sick of good French food and efficient German public transit.

Please please us know as your RC application progresses!

[smalldog]

Just found confirmation in UKBA policy documents that your wife would not be able to apply for FLR. See section 3.2 here (third bullet point):

A non-EEA national family member issued with an EEA family permit (in
accordance with SURINDER SINGH criteria) would not then qualify for leave to remain in the UK under the immigration rules, as s/he would not have
valid leave in the UK at the time of application. S/he should instead be
issued with a residence card (as highlighted in the first bullet point).

Go the EEA route and good luck!