why does a STAMP 4 holder need to get a re-entry visa ?

[bazzare]

Can someone please help clear up some confusion regarding a re-entry visa ?

My non EU wife arrived in Ireland on friday and and we ( Im an Irish Citizen ) both went to the GNIB in Burgh Quay yesterday and registered and got her GNIB card with stamp 4, which is valid for 1 year

I asked the guy who dealt with us if she could then travel in and out of Ireland , or if there was anything else we needed. He informed me that we now have to apply for a re-entry permit so she can get back into Ireland !

How can this be right ? she now has a stamp in her passport that says she is permitted to remain in Ireland for 1 year, so why does she need an additional visa to get back to Ireland when she already has permission to live and work here for the next year.

I thought once she has the GNIB card with stamp 4 thats all she needs ?

So not only does she need a visa to travel to other EU countries, she also needs a further visa to get back to Ireland. Surely this cant be right ?

How does it make sense that if I was an EU citizen and not an Irish citizen, my wife wouldn't have all these restrictions placed on her movement. Its just so unfair, it feels like she has no rights here at all.

Is this just more of the reverse discrimination against Irish citizens.

Are they really strict about having a re-entry visa ?? even if we are travelling together.

Surely if we went to London for a weekend, her GNIB card, and the stamp in her passport would suffice to get her back into the country.

I just dont see how this makes sense ?

[IQU]

she need a irish re entry visa.its free of charge for spouse of irish citizen its in the same building.you just need the same documents re entry is normally valid till the date of gnib card valid.she need visa to travel to eu countries but some non eu countries still can travel to eu without visa.its all depend where your wife from ? but if you excercise eu treaty right in any another eu country for 6 months your wife can apply for residence card (eu4fam ) which is valid till 5 years and your wife can travel to any part of eu without visa.there is more info www.inis.gov.ie

[xxxtieee]

I had raised this question to my immigration officer when i got my stamp 4. His answer was that ' Visa is only a travel document checking your eligibility to travel to and enter a country legally. GNIB card, stamp 4 or not, is a residency document. This is only issued if you want to be a resident of the country. The processes for both are separate although they are connected.'

In other words, you have to compulsorily renew your residency stamp when it expires. But for visa renewal, you can wait until you require it for traveling.

The visa process (the document, the processing) is internationally standardized to an extent. GNIB process / documents are not!

I agree that it could be improved, but the current set up does make sense when you think of the way public enterprise works.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I had raised this question to my immigration officer when i got my stamp 4. His answer was that ' Visa is only a travel document checking your eligibility to travel to and enter a country legally. GNIB card, stamp 4 or not, is a residency document. This is only issued if you want to be a resident of the country. The processes for both are separate although they are connected.'

In other words, you have to compulsorily renew your residency stamp when it expires. But for visa renewal, you can wait until you require it for traveling.

The visa process (the document, the processing) is internationally standardized to an extent. GNIB process / documents are not!

I agree that it could be improved, but the current set up does make sense when you think of the way public enterprise works.

Very poor thinking from the IO.

Stamp 4EUFam holders do not need to get a reentry visa. Why is that? Because it is such totally different document than a Stamp 4? Or because EU law requires that any holder of a Residence Card (4EUFam!) not have to get a visa!

[xxxtieee]

I had raised this question to my immigration officer when i got my stamp 4. His answer was that ' Visa is only a travel document checking your eligibility to travel to and enter a country legally. GNIB card, stamp 4 or not, is a residency document. This is only issued if you want to be a resident of the country. The processes for both are separate although they are connected.'

In other words, you have to compulsorily renew your residency stamp when it expires. But for visa renewal, you can wait until you require it for traveling.

The visa process (the document, the processing) is internationally standardized to an extent. GNIB process / documents are not!

I agree that it could be improved, but the current set up does make sense when you think of the way public enterprise works.

Very poor thinking from the IO.

Stamp 4EUFam holders do not need to get a reentry visa. Why is that? Because it is such totally different document than a Stamp 4? Or because EU law requires that any holder of a Residence Card (4EUFam!) not have to get a visa!

That is interesting.

This is my understanding ( not verified so please consider it as assumptions)

>'EU Fam' stamp and the process of providing it is agreed and signed-off by the EU member countries as an acceptable form of travel document within the region. If that is the case, I would also assume that the process of getting 'EU Fam' would also have a set of standardized checks and balances agreed by the EU member states. If you notice, the process for getting 'EU fam' stamp is different to that of other ones.

I do not think that is the case with with Stamp 1 through 5. These stamps would be specific to the Ireland and its provision is mostly at the discretion of the state. I do not think there is a EU wide agreement on the process for Stamp 1 to 4.

At the end of the day, travel between sovereign states is based on their agreements between other countries. Visa process is just another form of control to vet a person for their eligibility to enter the country. However, this is waived for some citizens and that purely by agreement.

the point is: if UK doesn't accept Stamp 4 given by ireland, it just that they don't recognize the process used in Ireland of Stamp 4 as an eligiblity criterria to enter their country!.

I am not an expert, but this is my theory based on what I see.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

A holder of an Residence Card does not need a visa to travel from anywhere in the world to any EU member state (except the UK, but that is in fight).

The reason Stamp 4 holders require a visa, is because the Irish govt says they do. Simple as that. It is simply policy, seemingly designed to deter travel.

[Malika]

I think it all boils down to whether the spouse is Visa-required National since stamp 4 basically gives you the right to live and work in Ireland...........when going to other jurisdictions it becomes invalid.it's just a domestic card.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I think it all boils down to whether the spouse is Visa-required National since stamp 4 basically gives you the right to live and work in Ireland...........when going to other jurisdictions it becomes invalid.it's just a domestic card.

What are you trying to say??

Stamp 4EUFam is very similar, but it works also as a visa.

[xxxtieee]

A holder of an Residence Card does not need a visa to travel from anywhere in the world to any EU member state (except the UK, but that is in fight).

The reason Stamp 4 holders require a visa, is because the Irish govt says they do. Simple as that. It is simply policy, seemingly designed to deter travel.

Precisely the point. Irish government considers Residency process and Visa process as two separate processes, except for EUFam card where the process of acquiring that is agreed by the member states.

[acme4242]

there is no logic, rhyme nor reason,

http://irelandsreversediscrimination.wo ... 0/02/20/1/

There are a few people to blame, John O'Donoghue is number 1
followed by Micheal McDowell with Dermot Ahern fully complacent.

Before O'Donoghue, the spouse of Irish Citizens where considered Irish family, and if the marriage was genuine, would qualified for citizenship.
He decided to remove this right to increase his own power, and so he got full discretion over Irish Citizens marriage and family life.

Before Micheal McDowell an Irishman's wife was not considered alien quote “Certain non-nationals are exempted from the registration requirement. The exemptions include children under 16 and the female spouses or widows of Irish citizens”

So your whole GNIB registration mess is traced back to McDowell

Both this guys where finally kicked out, by the power of the ballot box, but their harm remains (Dermot Ahern jumped ship with his massive pension, when he seen the end of the plank)

[Malika]

What are you trying to say??

Stamp 4EUFam is very similar, but it works also as a visa.[/quote]

Similar but not the same!

with stamp 4, Irish law apply while Stamp 4 EUFam, the clue is in the name!

As xxxtieee has pointed out;
Precisely the point. Irish government considers Residency process and Visa process as two separate processes, except for EUFam card where the process of acquiring that is agreed by the member states.

[acme4242]

Precisely the point. Irish government considers Residency process and Visa process as two separate processes, except for EUFam card where the process of acquiring that is agreed by the member states.

this is answering a questions saying,"it is what it is..."
it does not answer the question why ?

If you already have residency stamp to live in a country, why the extra stamp to visit the country, its nonsense.

Then ask, why other member states give their own citizens family EUfam cards, for equality purposes, but the Irish do not.

[xxxtieee]

Why do we require a a GNIB number, or a different driving license number when we have a PPS number which is a unique personal identifier? This is also the case with UK, US and many other countries!

Why can't the GNIB card be used as an identity card (that is probably is most verified one) while your driving license can be?

Why do we have a separate process for PR, a separate process for Citizenship and a separate process for EUfam?

Why do I have 2 bank accounts when the money I use is the same?

Why can't we all live in harmony?

The perceived risks/gains associated with achieving any of the above is different to different people/departments/entities.

Therefore, they are designed differently.

Here is an 'assumption' why it can make sense: because Visa is a requirement for many countries outside the EU and because the government do have a vetting process to provide one, it is 'probably' cost effective to manage it as a separate process. I do not know the cost/benefit of putting them together.

At the moment, Ireland do require a re-entry visa (so does UK and most European or other countries for similar cases). EUFam can be considered an exception to the process.

All I did was re-word what I wrote earlier. And I am done with this

Precisely the point. Irish government considers Residency process and Visa process as two separate processes, except for EUFam card where the process of acquiring that is agreed by the member states.

this is answering a questions saying,"it is what it is..."
it does not answer the question why ?

If you already have residency stamp to live in a country, why the extra stamp to visit the country, its nonsense.

Then ask, why other member states give their own citizens family EUfam cards, for equality purposes, but the Irish do not.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

At the moment, Ireland do require a re-entry visa (so does UK and most European or other countries for similar cases). EUFam can be considered an exception to the process.

I know of no other country that requires residents to get a re-entry visa. The UK does not, Germany does not, the US does not, Canada does not.

Actually Canada sometimes does, but it is more an accident. It happens when you renew your residence permit inside the country, but only if you are from a visa requiring country and your existing multi-entry visa is expired. It usually only happens if you have only a short remaining time on your passport when the initial visa+residence card is issued.

Ireland is the outlier here!

[Malika]

Precisely the point. Irish government considers Residency process and Visa process as two separate processes, except for EUFam card where the process of acquiring that is agreed by the member states.

this is answering a questions saying,"it is what it is..."
it does not answer the question why ?

If you already have residency stamp to live in a country, why the extra stamp to visit the country, its nonsense.

Then ask, why other member states give their own citizens family EUfam cards, for equality purposes, but the Irish do not.

I was indicating to the OP that the stamp 4 was issued under Irish Law......yes, I am stating "it is what is" because frankly, I am not in a position to question the Status Quo re Irish Law, I do not legislate.

Peace!

[acme4242]

I was indicating to the OP that the stamp 4 was issued under Irish Law......yes, I am stating "it is what is" because frankly, I am not in a position to question the Status Quo re Irish Law, I do not legislate.

Peace!

no problem, but getting back to the title of the thread
why does a STAMP 4 holder need to get a re-entry visa ?
I am trying to explain its political and civil servant incompetence
and bad mindedness.
Its a Department paid by Irish Citizens called Dept of Equality who introduce a regime of reverse discrimination against its own citizens,
its wrong what ever way you look at it.

This is the same regime which bankrupt its children and its children's children.
And the regime now receive huge pensions, while not being pension age.

wrong wrong wrong, shame on John O'Donoghue, Micheal McDowell, and everyone with surname Ahern

[jeupsy]

Quite frankly, given that the re-entry visa can easily be obtained in the same builinding I don't think it is that bad (if Ireland thinks travel docuemtns and residence documents should be separate; whay not as long as they don't make it a hell to obtain each of them).

Many comments are saying that other EU countries give the partners of their own nationals the same rights as EU treaty rights applicants. I would be curious to know if these people have experienced it first hand as I doubt it is the case for a majority of EU countries.
As a matter of fact, from my experience the Irish immigration processes pretty flexible compared to larger European countries which have to cope with more immigration pressure (for exemple when dealing with their own nationals many countries will not be satisfied with a wedding certificate to deliver a residance card; and will require long and unpleasant interviews with both parties and ask very private questions to check the validity of the relashionship ... I could be wrong but I don't think Ireland does that).

And I think the bottom line is: Ireland defines its immigration policies based on what makes sense to its governement. This applied to Irish citizens.

When it comes to non Irish EU citizens, it has to follow EU directives which sometimes are more flexible than standard Irish law. The governement would probably rather handles these cases in the same way as Irish citizen's, but they just can't (and actually they probably don't care too much because the number of applicants under these rules is likely very small compared to applicants under standar Irish rules, so it has a limited impact on the immigration flaws).

EU treaty rights are an exception in a case where the government doesn't have controll over the policy ... you can't expect them to use the same policy in the cases where they have control if it doesn't make sense to them (especially since the number of applicant in that situation is likely much larger and it would have a much greater impact to change the rule fron them).

In most European countries you will find the same situation (and for many EU countries you will see that immigration policies including residance/citizenship for partners have been tightened up a lot in the past 5-10 years ... it is not just in Ireland).

So I understand the frustration ... but I really don't think Ireland is discriminating against its citizen more then other European countries (in my personal experience with my non EU partner, it is actually less).

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Quite frankly, given that the re-entry visa can easily be obtained in the same builinding I don't think it is that bad

What does this actually mean? Same building as what? Certainly if I need a reentry visa a year after receiving my residence permit, it is NOT in the same building as I am in. I need to take time of work, may need to travel several hundred miles, etc...

While I am happy you sound so content with the existing Irish rules, it does appear to be a massive waste of resources. Why don't they just issue the reentry visa at the same time as issuing the residence permit? They could then reduce the number of staff in the civil service!

[Ben]

Quite frankly, given that the re-entry visa can easily be obtained in the same builinding I don't think it is that bad

Not everyone lives in Dublin.

[jeupsy]

What does this actually mean? Same building as what? Certainly if I need a reentry visa a year after receiving my residence permit, it is NOT in the same building as I am in. I need to take time of work, may need to travel several hundred miles, etc...

Do I get it wrong that at the immigration office they have two queues: one for GNIB cards and one for visas? And that when you go there to renew the GNIB card you can then go to straight to the visa counter and they will issue the non EU parnter with a multi-entry visa valid for the same duration as the Stamp 4?

Maybe I misunderstand something since I am not in the same situation (please correct me if this is the case) but that was my impression from what I read in this thread and what I saw in the immigration office in Burgh Quay. In that case it doesn't look like a big extra counstraint to me to get the visa since you can get it at the same time as the Stamp 4.

In terms of waist of ressources, yes we agree sicne the guy issuing the visa probably does nothing more than checking whether you have a valid residance card so the previous guy could just have done both (but then in Ireland or in other countries, I think if you want to look for inefficiencies in the civil service or even private companies - you will find much worst exemples than this one)

[jeupsy]

Quite frankly, given that the re-entry visa can easily be obtained in the same builinding I don't think it is that bad

Not everyone lives in Dublin.

Maybe the process doesn't really work or is too long - I have no idea, but here they say they accept re-entry visa applications by post: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Re-entry%20visas

If this works, sending them a form after renewing the GNIB card in order to also renew the visa doesn't look too bad, does it?

[Ben]

Only for those living in Dublin.

If you live elsewhere, your immigration office (for GNIB cards etc) is the nearest Garda station with immigration facilities. Visas, however, are still dealt with at Burgh Quay.

So, if you live in Goleen in Co. Cork, for example, you get your GNIB card from Bantree Garda Station (35km, 35 min drive) and your re-entry visa from Burgh Quay in Dublin (400km, 5 hour drive).

[jeupsy]

OK, I undersand the extra-constraint and agree the proccess could be more streamlined.

My main point is just to keep in mind that the grass is not always greener elsewhere (I really think in this case it isn't). And that while sending a form/queuing for an extra hour/driving to the other side of the country can be annoying; people should keep in mind that there are many people in Ireland and elswhere getting visas refused for silly reasons after wasting much more time with local bureaucracy.

I guess based on my personal experience to get my non EU partner to join me Ireland (as a non Irish EU national which should be the easiest route); I am a bit surprised to see people complaining about sending one more form or going to the immigration office. Given how much time I spent to understand the rules, gather documents, submit documents and forms, resubmit lost docuements or things which they are not supposed to ask for but that the embassy guy decided he wants anyway, follow-up on delayed processing, queue at the immigration office, ... It really woulnd't come to my mind to complain about sending a form or queuing somewhere as long as I know it is straight forward and I will get the docuement I need immediatly; so I am wondering if people really have in mind other cases than their own individual onese when they make such comments.

[jeupsy]

***

[Ben]

driving to the other side of the country can be annoying

fyp.