Moving Back to Ireland After an Overstay

[auntymissy]

I'm going to try to make this very long story as short as possible...here goes.

I'm an American citizen. I moved to Scotland to study at the University of Aberdeen back in September of 2003. Travelled to Ireland in April of 2004 for three week's holiday. Met Aidan (my now husband) in his hometown in Co. Tyrone, visited back and forth for the remainder of my study-abroad program, but eventually moved back to Florida in June of 2004 when my program ended. Aidan visited me in Florida in August of 2004. We couldn't stand the separation anymore so on October 16, 2004, I flew on a return ticket to Dublin to be with my Aidan. Needless to say, I did not go home after my 90-day tourist visa was expired. I overstayed for four months.

Aidan and I were engaged in February of 2005, decided we wanted to start our lives in Florida, started our US Fiance' Visa application, and in Mid-May 2005, I had to leave Ireland and my Aidan to go back home so I could find work enough to prove that I could support Aidan when he moves to America.

Insert many months of tears and huge phone bills and that brings us to November of 2005. Aidan arrives on the 8th and we're married outdoors under a giant oak tree on November 19, 2005. It was the most beautiful day of my life. Aidan and I struggled financially for many months before we had enough money to submit his Adjustment of Status application. But finally, we did it, he got his greencard and could finally begin working again. We're stable right now, we both have good jobs, and decent income...

But...after months of discussions and weighing the pros and cons, we've decided to move back to Ireland in November 2007. There are many reasons we are going back, the main two being we want to raise our children there, and we are planning on opening a small computer business in Donegal. We're currently saving up for our move back, and will be making a trip there in May to look at potential areas to live and open our computer shop.

However, now I'm getting increasingly worried about my four-month overstay. Last year, when we first decided to move back to Ireland, we started frantically phoning embassies and consulates left and right trying to figure out what the heck we're supposed to do...do I need an additional visa? Will I get turned away at Dublin airport as soon as I arrive? Can they legally turn me away since I'm married to an Irish citizen? And...can they even turn me away at all since I was technically staying in the north and not the republic? We were getting nowhere. Nobody knew anything. Every single place we called (three different Irish embassies in the states, the immigration department at Dublin airport, the Irish Immigration Center in Boston) gave us the same answer...and that was basically, "I dunno. We have no rules or laws regarding what you did and the situation you're in now. Try just showing them your marriage license and passport. Good luck, and let us know how you get on." I was led around in circles and finally had to give up. There was no other information to be found.

Does anyone have any advice on this subject? We'll be buying our tickets for our visit in May and I'm scared that I might run into problems when we go through immigration. Anyone ever been in this predicament? What can I expect upon landing in Dublin?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.

[dsab85]

As far as I know Irish Immigration won't know that you overstayed as long as you didn't get into any trouble (police etc.).

When you leave Ireland Immigration doesn't put a exit stamp into your passport, and they don't track who exited when the country.

[auntymissy]

You're right, Irish Immigration did not put an exit stamp in my passport. However, it was scanned (don't they track electronically?), and I've got a re-entry stamp into the US.

Technically, since I was living in Northern Ireland, I did not overstay in the South at all, but I never got any stamps in the North. Wish I would have now.

Thanks for replying!

ETA: Also, I did not get into any trouble while staying in Ireland, and I did not work since I was there on a visitor visa.

[scrudu]

Does your passport have any stamps showing when you entered and subsequently exited? Most likely you have no exit stamps, so the Irish Immigration won't know when you actually exited the country.

If you just arrive as a spouse of your Irish husband, and enter on a Visa on Arrival (i.e. no visa for US citizens), you will then have to apply for a visa/residence permit to remain after the 90 days. This will take 16-18 months to process.

Instead, you should apply for a visa before you enter the country, namely a D-Spouse visa, which takes 6-8 weeks to process and if granted will grant you full working rights equivilant to those of your Irish husbands. You can then enter and apply for a re-entry visa, which is granted with a minimum of fuss, and then you are free to proceed on with your life.

I dont know the legislation on owing a business though. Some countries say you have to wait 2 years before you can open a business. I'm not sure if Ireland has such regulations, but I guess your husband could always be the business owner on the business if this was a problem!

Best of luck.

[auntymissy]

scrudu, thank you so much!! My passport does not have an exit stamp...I thought it was all done electronically like they do here in the US. Glad to hear that's not so!

I've never heard of the D-spouse visa! We're definitely going to do that...it seems like much less fuss than just arriving with my husband.

I assume that when Aidan and I go back for a visit in May, all will be well then also?

You have calmed my nerves! I can't thank you enough!

[scrudu]

For your visit I presume you will just be entering on a Visitor visa (visa on arrival)? Such visits will only help to make your case when applying for your D-Spouse visa.

When you enter the country on the D-Spouse visa (initially granted for only 3 months) you will have to present yourself to the GNIB who will issue you a "Stamp 4". Here is an exerpt explaining what a Stamp 4 is:

"Permitted to remain in Ireland until a specified date. The above stamp is given to EEA nationals, spouses of EEA/Irish nationals, parents of Irish citizens (who have been granted permission to remain on that basis), persons granted refugee status under the terms of the 1951 Geneva Convention, former asylum seekers granted humanitarian leave to remain, refugees here under Government decision. This stamp is also issued in respect of the holders of Work Authorisation / Work Visas. No work permit or business permission is required by holders of this stamp"

Like applying for any long term visa you will have to submit a lot of documentation to prove your relationship, and visits to Ireland can only help such an application. Check out Shellylooneys story for an example of how a visa application was refused because she hadn't visited Ireland and Immigration weren't "sure about her marriage". You realy need to prove your relationship, so gather lots of info. Read earlier posts by me and others on this subject.
Also, I'd advise to apply earlier rather than later for this visa as it may take 12 weeks to be issued. It is granted for an initial 3 months, and can only be used within 3 months of issue, so you can't apply "too" far in advance!

[auntymissy]

Thanks scrudu!

I think we'll be ok in regards to proving our marriage--we've got tons of documents and photos, have been married and living together here in the states since '05, and were living together in Ireland for 7 months. We had to also prove our relationship when applying for my husband's greencard here in the US, and as you may have heard, US immigration is no easy feat, lol. So hopefully the process will go smoothly as long as we have the proper documentation.

A quick question though: do you know where I can find information about this D-spouse visa? I've looked on the department of justice website, but I couldn't find anything really explaining what the visa is, and what instructions I need to follow in order to get the application processed.

Thanks again for all your help!

[auntymissy]

To anyone who is interested:

My husband emailed the same question to the Department of Justice, and got the following response:

Hi Aidan

Thank you for your enquiry. As your wife is a US national she is not visa
required for Ireland, therefore she does not require a D-visa. As your
wife is not visa required we cannot assist you with this query.

You are advised to contact the Marriage Irish National Section @ 00 353
1616 7700 (Option 4) 10am-12.30pm Monday-Friday or e-mail
Immigration_mail@justice.ie for further assistance.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Visa Section, Department of Justice, Equality & Law Reform
13-14 Burgh Quay,
Dublin 2

My understanding from this is that Americans are not eligible to even apply for D-spouse visas. I'm not sure what to do in this case. We're going to send the same question to the immigration_mail@justice.ie address, and see what answer we get from them. Will keep you posted.

[scrudu]

It is indeed true that US citizens do not need a visa to enter Ireland, but the Tourist visa is only valid for 3 months, so how are you supposed to regularise your visa situation after those 3 months? Did Aidan say that you were looking to move to Ireland on a long-term basis? I think you need to get back on to the Immigration about what you are supposed to do in this case.

The documentation regarding this is on the Dept of Justice site http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&c ... jI2v5VtnTQ
See section "Family Member of Irish Citizen". If this visa is granted, you will be issued with a D-Visa, which is a more long-term, extendable visa. This differs from the restrictive c-Type tourist visa which cannot be extended.

[auntymissy]

Yes, he told them that we are looking to move there permanently. I'm getting so aggravated being run around in circles, ya know? Can't they just tell me what we're supposed to do?

We're definitely going to get back to them. Gonna email their Immigration email address with the same question and see what they tell us. I'd much rather get some kind of visa instead of just flying over and winging it.

Thanks for the help! I'll be back with an update!

[pigeon308win]

Hi all,

just this morning I phoned the Irish consulate in Canberra about the same thing.

I'll give you a short background first. I am new to this board as I found out yesterday that I have lost my Dutch nationality when I became an Australian citizen (the netherlands doesn't allow dual nationality unless you are married to a citizen of the country of which you want to become a citizen). My wife is Irish (and also a naturalised Australian citizen). We are moving to Ireland in May and I will have to get in as a dependent of an Irish citizen.

I asked the Irish consulate what the story is on entry, work and starting a business. The answer was that I have to register with the GNIB and bring my translated birth certificate and our marriage certificate (we were married in Ireland in 1995). According to the consulate, I will then be given permission to stay, work and start a business from day 1 as long as my wife is in Ireland. As far as I know this is due to new legislation that is supposed to make it easier for non-EU spouses of Irish citizens and AFAIK it is effective as per Feb 2007.

Because of the above, I am now no longer sure whether the D-Spouse visa (which I can't find anywhere by the way) or EU-1 paperwork is necessary.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Cheers

[JAJ]

I'll give you a short background first. I am new to this board as I found out yesterday that I have lost my Dutch nationality when I became an Australian citizen (the netherlands doesn't allow dual nationality unless you are married to a citizen of the country of which you want to become a citizen). My wife is Irish (and also a naturalised Australian citizen). We are moving to Ireland in May and I will have to get in as a dependent of an Irish citizen.

Did your wife become an Australian citizen before you did? Or at the same time?

[pigeon308win]

At the same time, and that's why I can't claim that my wife was an Australian citizen when I was naturalised. That would have made things a lot easier. But hey, it's not to be so we'll now have to deal with the fact that I am not an EU citizen but just a hanger on to one.

[JAJ]

At the same time, and that's why I can't claim that my wife was an Australian citizen when I was naturalised. That would have made things a lot easier. But hey, it's not to be so we'll now have to deal with the fact that I am not an EU citizen but just a hanger on to one.

You should look carefully at the information at http://www.ind.nl on how former Dutch citizens can re-acquire Dutch citizenship. You may be eligible to do so once you move to either Ireland or back to the Netherlands. And as you are now married to an Australian, you might not need to renounce your Australian citizenship to do so.

Alternatively, or in addition, you need to know that once you've lived in Ireland for 3 years you can apply for naturalisation as an Irish citizen (although they take a long time to process applications).

Did you get married before 30 November 2002? If so, you missed out on a chance to become an Irish citizen by marriage alone after 3 years marriage (this facility was open until 29 November 2005).

[pigeon308win]

JAJ,

I have no intention to move back to the Netherlands and i was told by the Netherlands Consulate that I will have to renounce my Australian citizenship should I wish to regain my Dutch nationality. I will not renounce my Australian citizenship as I now have a greater affinity with Australia than with the Netherlands and I'd like to think that one day we'll move back to Australia after a number of years in Ireland.

We indeed got married before 2002 (1995 in fact) but before 29 November 2005, we had no plans to ever move to Europe again. In hindsight, that would have been the way to go but it's too late now.

To come back to my initial questions: What exactly is the story with the D spouse visa or EU1 form. Do I need all this as a non-EU spouse (non-visa required) of an Irish citizen. As I will need to work throughout Europe, an EU1 form is probably very useful. Does anyone know whether you can apply for an EU1 form prior to arrival in Ireland (the form needs address, contact details etc., which i don't have yet) or i sit something you do after registration with GNIB?

Thanks

[JAJ]

JAJ,

I have no intention to move back to the Netherlands and i was told by the Netherlands Consulate that I will have to renounce my Australian citizenship should I wish to regain my Dutch nationality.

That's generally true in the case of naturalisation. If you moved back to the Netherlands for 1 year you might be eligible to use the "option procedure" that would not require renunciation of your Australian citizenship.

I will not renounce my Australian citizenship as I now have a greater affinity with Australia than with the Netherlands and I'd like to think that one day we'll move back to Australia after a number of years in Ireland.

In order to keep options open you should plan to become a naturalised Irish citizen in due course. You need to be living in Ireland and planning to stay in order to get naturalised, but you could leave afterwards.

We indeed got married before 2002 (1995 in fact) but before 29 November 2005, we had no plans to ever move to Europe again. In hindsight, that would have been the way to go but it's too late now.

Many people later on regret not taking up an opportunity to claim a particular citizenship.

To come back to my initial questions: What exactly is the story with the D spouse visa or EU1 form. Do I need all this as a non-EU spouse (non-visa required) of an Irish citizen. As I will need to work throughout Europe, an EU1 form is probably very useful.

I don't think your wife will be eligible to sponsor you under EU laws into the Republic of Ireland as she is not a citizen of another EU/EEA state and is not returning from living in another EU/EEA state.

She will have to sponsor you for a spouse visa under Irish domestic laws. Ideally it would be best to have this visa in your passport before leaving Australia, compared to the potential hassle involved with turning up as a tourist and trying to adjust status afterwards.

And even if she was entitled to sponsor you under European rules, an Irish issued "European" permit does not give you any special rights in other EU/EEA states, sorry. If it's just short business trips your Australian passport on its own will be ok. If you want to really "work" in another EU/EEA state you will need a visa/permit from that country, or alternatively become a naturalised Irish citizen.

I don't know what this spouse visa process involves and the Irish put very little information online - so the best option might be to write to the Irish Embassy and ask for instructions on what to do.

[pigeon308win]

Thanks for that JAJ.

I sent an email to DoJ in Dublin for info. I'll see what I get back. In the mean time, I might post my query as a new question on the board to see whether anyone else has had to deal with this under the new legislation.