Verifying a foreign divorce

[yankeegirl]

Ok I am in a bit of a panic so I hope my post is coherent. My partner (Irish citizen) and I (American citizen) had applied to marry at the registry office in Dongeal. We had our in person appointment about 2 weeks ago to give all our documentation etc. I was previously married in the US and divorce was final in 2003, in Colorado, where I had resided since 2000. (We had been married and living in Wyoming and I moved when we separated.) Colorado law states that a person has to be resident in the state for a minimum of 90 days before a petetion of divorce can be granted. I met that requirement. My final decree of dissolution states " The Petioner (me) was domiciled in Colorado for 90 days before this case was filed." The registrar in Donegal said all appeared to be in order, she had to send the paperwork to roscommon but she didn't anticipate any problems and I should get the final go-ahead in a week or so.

WEll i received a letter from the GRO stating that they cant grant it. Even though I was resident in Colorado, i was not "domiciled" there under Irish law and in order for them to grant it, I have to find official documentation that my ex is a US citizen such as a birth certificate. I have had no contact with him in years as the judge in the divorce granted me a permanent restraining order. I looked up Illinois Vital Records dept (where he was born) and the record are not publlic so since I am not a member of his immediate family I ca'nt get a copy of his birth certificate.
Has anyone ever encountered like this before?

[JAJ]

Ok I am in a bit of a panic so I hope my post is coherent. My partner (Irish citizen) and I (American citizen) had applied to marry at the registry office in Dongeal. We had our in person appointment about 2 weeks ago to give all our documentation etc. I was previously married in the US and divorce was final in 2003, in Colorado, where I had resided since 2000. (We had been married and living in Wyoming and I moved when we separated.) Colorado law states that a person has to be resident in the state for a minimum of 90 days before a petetion of divorce can be granted. I met that requirement. My final decree of dissolution states " The Petioner (me) was domiciled in Colorado for 90 days before this case was filed." The registrar in Donegal said all appeared to be in order, she had to send the paperwork to roscommon but she didn't anticipate any problems and I should get the final go-ahead in a week or so.

WEll i received a letter from the GRO stating that they cant grant it. Even though I was resident in Colorado, i was not "domiciled" there under Irish law and in order for them to grant it, I have to find official documentation that my ex is a US citizen such as a birth certificate. I have had no contact with him in years as the judge in the divorce granted me a permanent restraining order. I looked up Illinois Vital Records dept (where he was born) and the record are not publlic so since I am not a member of his immediate family I ca'nt get a copy of his birth certificate.
Has anyone ever encountered like this before?

Find yourself a good family lawyer.

And if in the end the Irish will not recognise your divorce, you may decide to live in the United Kingdom instead if your divorce is recognised under British law (the border isn't all that far away from where you are).

[yankeegirl]

I had thought about that but don't want to spend the money if we don't know the outcome. So my partner and I had decided to go to the US to marry, and have a reception here. I was actually more worried about telling my partners parents, they were really looking forward to a family wedding and not everyone can afford to fly to the US; but they were really supportive. I just can't get over some of the Irish laws; seem pretty archaic but oh well, where there's a will theres a way I guess; just takes thinking outside the box sometimes Anyways, thanks for replying!

[JAJ]

I had thought about that but don't want to spend the money if we don't know the outcome. So my partner and I had decided to go to the US to marry, and have a reception here. I was actually more worried about telling my partners parents, they were really looking forward to a family wedding and not everyone can afford to fly to the US; but they were really supportive. I just can't get over some of the Irish laws; seem pretty archaic but oh well, where there's a will theres a way I guess; just takes thinking outside the box sometimes Anyways, thanks for replying!

You could always get married in Northern Ireland, presumably.

Either way, you need to be careful. If the Irish do not recognise your divorce, they may not recognise your new marriage (conducted in Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom) as legally valid either.

You really do need some good professional advice on this as it's very important. Ultimately, if the Irish refuse to recognise your old divorce, you may wish to consider whether you should live in Northern Ireland instead.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

So you had nothing to do with Ireland at the time of your divorce? And had been in Colorado for several years. So it sounds like their problem was with the wording of "The Petioner (me) was domiciled in Colorado for 90 days before this case was filed."

It may be worth talking with the people at the US embassy to see what they know, and if they have any suggestions. I am sure there have been other divorced Americans who have wanted to remarry in Ireland.

You might also be able to get a reissued divorce decree without the unfortunate wording...

[JAJ]

I had thought about that but don't want to spend the money if we don't know the outcome. So my partner and I had decided to go to the US to marry, and have a reception here. I was actually more worried about telling my partners parents, they were really looking forward to a family wedding and not everyone can afford to fly to the US; but they were really supportive. I just can't get over some of the Irish laws; seem pretty archaic

The problem seems to lie in section 5 of the Domicile and Recognition of Foreign Divorces Act 1986:
http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/ ... 986.1.html

5. —(1) For the rule of law that a divorce is recognised if granted in a country where both spouses are domiciled, there is hereby substituted a rule that a divorce shall be recognised if granted in the country where either spouse is domiciled.
(2) In relation to a country which has in matters of divorce two or more systems applying in different territorial units, this section shall, without prejudice to subsection (3) of this section, have effect as if each territorial unit were a separate country.
(3) A divorce granted in any of the following jurisdictions—
( a ) England and Wales,
( b ) Scotland,
( c ) Northern Ireland,
( d ) the Isle of Man,
( e ) the Channel Islands,
shall be recognised if either spouse is domiciled in any of those jurisdictions.
(4) In a case where neither spouse is domiciled in the State, a divorce shall be recognised if, although not granted in the country where either spouse is domiciled, it is recognised in the country or countries where the spouses are domiciled.

The problem is that Irish law (as far as I understand it, in line with English law) regards domicile - as applying to a country like the United States - as a state based concept. So a few years resident in Colorado would not necessarily have made you domiciled in Colorado as far as Irish law is concerned. You may have stayed domiciled in your original state.

If you had been divorced in the United Kingdom and Islands, it would not matter which part of that country you were "domiciled" in. You would just have had to prove you were domiciled in one United Kingdom jurisdiction. But it seems that the special provisions of subsection (3) don't apply to American divorces, you need to either:

- prove you were domiciled in Colorado (and not any other U.S. state) to the satisfaction of the Irish law definition, which involves more than just residence for a few years; or
- use the provisions of subsection (4) and prove that neither spouse was domiciled in the Republic of Ireland.

Someone else suggests contacting the American Embassy. They may or may not be able to help put you in touch with others in the same position. Similarly, there may be family law agencies who can assist you.

It seems to me that your choice boils down to either finding a good Irish lawyer (familiar with foreign divorce issues) to challenge the GRO decision, or move across the border and build your lives in Northern Ireland instead. Many people in the past have left the Republic of Ireland for similar reasons, mainly taking refuge in the United Kingdom. You wouldn't be the first by any means.

If you do decide to move across the border, you should get advice on recognition of your divorce in Northern Ireland. But my understanding is that it would be much simpler - provided the divorce is legal in the jurisdiction is was granted it and you were resident there, it would usually be recognised in any United Kingdom jurisdiction.

[yankeegirl]

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=11231

I actually do live in Northern Ireland but we were going to marry in ROI since I am not able to get a CoA from the HO. I had posted previously in the link above. That was one of two options I was given by a Law Center consultant, the other being to marry in the US and applying for an EEA family permit at a UK Consulate. At the time, we wanted to marry in ROI to have all of his family present etc but that is not not an option either so off to the US we go.

I was advised that the EEA route would be better due to my overstay status, and to be honest I also like the free application. I'm not too fussed about having to wait longer for citizenship. I'm now wondering how to find out the particulars of the application. Do I need an appt at the consualte or is it done on walk in basis? Do I have to send app online beforehand? Also, I was looking over the EEA2 form and it asks for things such as address, etc. Well, my address is in the UK. I'm just trying to get all of my ducks in a row to make things go as seamlessly as possible.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

How long have you been living together, and do you have a solid documented history of the partnership (e.g. leases for a flat, bills in different or shared names, ...)?

You are not required to be married to apply under the European rules. The rules are less clear for an unmarried couple than for a married couple, but in both cases there has to be history and it has to be a legitimate relationship.

[yankeegirl]

We have been living together for a little over two years but don't have enough documentation to prove it. All bills are in his name other than the phone which we recently changed to mine, the reason being is that I don't have a bank account. When I spoke to the Law Center, the woman said I could try to apply as an unmarried partner but she didn't think it would be successful due to the lack of paperwork proving that we have been cohabitating for two years. It was her understanding that we would need all the proof/documentation that is required for those applying for a UP visa under UK law, which we don't have unfortunately.

[JAJ]

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=11231

I actually do live in Northern Ireland but we were going to marry in ROI since I am not able to get a CoA from the HO. I had posted previously in the link above. That was one of two options I was given by a Law Center consultant, the other being to marry in the US and applying for an EEA family permit at a UK Consulate. At the time, we wanted to marry in ROI to have all of his family present etc but that is not not an option either so off to the US we go.

My apologies. I didn't recall you were already living in Northern Ireland and couldn't get a COA. One of the work-arounds is to get married in a Church of England church (in England) however this exemption doesn't extend to the Church of Ireland.

I was advised that the EEA route would be better due to my overstay status, and to be honest I also like the free application. I'm not too fussed about having to wait longer for citizenship. I'm now wondering how to find out the particulars of the application. Do I need an appt at the consualte or is it done on walk in basis? Do I have to send app online beforehand? Also, I was looking over the EEA2 form and it asks for things such as address, etc. Well, my address is in the UK. I'm just trying to get all of my ducks in a row to make things go as seamlessly as possible.

If you are going to apply from the US, you need to start at http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk

I'm not sure if EEA2 is the right form to use for an outside-UK application. You should check.

Also, I wouldn't automatically assume an EEA based application would be quicker from outside the UK compared to a UK-rules spouse visa application. Many people on this forum have got UK-rule spouse visas fairly quickly - I don't know what the equivalent processing times are for EEA based permits.

As regards time to citizenship, on an EEA permit it's 5 years to permanent residence. If your husband is British by then you could apply for naturalisation immediately, otherwise you'd have to wait 1 extra year.

On a UK spouse visa, permanent residence comes after 2 years, and you could then apply for naturalisation as soon as your husband is naturalised, if you then have 3 years legal UK residence. If your husband doesn't naturalise, the wait would be 5 years in total for citizenship.

This posting makes clear the fact that Irish citizens are automatically deemed to have ILR, despite the fact the Home Office doesn't really advertise it:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=12262

Based on the law, your UK-born daughter will become British as soon as you are married and you should get this properly documented in case she needs it later in life.