When does residence begin?

[tbm]

This forum provides a wealth of information and insights! The more I read, the more interesting corner cases I encouter that I hadn't previously considered.

Reading Directive/2004/38/EC's blog, I found the following:

If you came for a short visit to the host state with your EU family member, e.g. for house hunting or for job interviews, and then went back to your previous residence before fully moving to the host state, then your residence most likely began with the short visit. For this to be valid, the EU citizen would have to begin exercising their treaty rights within 3 months of the short visit (or longer if they were actively looking for work).

This paragraph is written with non-EU family members in mind but I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to the EU citizen itself. My partner and I (both EU citizens; this is to get PR in order to apply for naturalisation) went to the UK in February for interviews, returned in July to look for flats and then moved to the UK properly in September (not this year but all in the same year).

Previously I assumed my 5 year period for PR started in September but based on this blog it seems I could make the claim that it started in July (assuming one of us started exercising treaty rights in September). Is this interpretation correct?

[fysicus]

First of all, as EU citizen I would never bother about naturalisation (it is an expensive procedure with no benefit that is worth mentioning), let alone worry about speeding up the process by only a few months.

In your situation, stay on the safe side and keep September as the reference point; why take the risk that the application is rejected on this detail?

[Jambo]

With the recent changes to the EEA Regulations (limiting the use of them by British nationals), I would argue that there is more downside than upside but naturalisation is also an emotional decision.

If you plan to apply directly for naturalisation (as PR Confirmation is optional) after 6 years, I would definitely not risk it just to save two months.

[aledeniz]

First of all, as EU citizen I would never bother about naturalisation (it is an expensive procedure with no benefit that is worth mentioning)

I am afraid I am of the opposite opinion. Without citizenship I cannot exercise political rights at legislative level, while at the same time paying wagon loads of taxes. That's just not right. I have been able to bear that only in the knowledge that it would have happened only for a limited time, and I must confess that when I decided to move in the UK, I was understanding, probably mistakenly, that I was going to get citizenship and voting rights in 5 years, not 6, which meanwhile for various reasons have become in my personal case 7 and a couple of months.
In my book taxation without political rights is totally unacceptable on the long run. While I understand that could be acceptable from others, denizenship is surely not suited for me if not as a very temporary condition.

[Gyfrinachgar]

I am afraid I am of the opposite opinion. Without citizenship I cannot exercise political rights at legislative level, while at the same time paying wagon loads of taxes. That's just not right. (...) In my book taxation without political rights is totally unacceptable on the long run..

I have no idea what your problem is. You live here, you work here, you benefit from publicly funded services, ergo you pay taxes here (to run said services). That has absolutely nothing to do with citizenship, nothing at all. Citizenship (with according privileges like political rights) and taxation are completely unrelated issues.

On a different note, I completely agree that citizenship is certainly worth the money, including for EU citizens who have thrown in their lot with the UK. Fysicus, I think that something which does not even cost a single grand all inclusive, and will be with you the rest of your life, doesn't really qualify as "expensive procedure".


[edit: typo corrected]

[Jambo]

These discussions always make me wonder - how many would have applied for naturalisation if this would not have enabled them to get a passport later? Or if you could get a British passport without becoming a citizen.

I admit this is less of an issue for EEA nationals.

[aledeniz]

I have no idea what your problem is. You life here, you work here, you benefit from publicly funded services, ergo you pay taxes here (to run said services). That has absolutely nothing to do with citizenship, nothing at all. Citizenship (with according privileges like political rights) and taxation are completely unrelated issues.

I personally think that citizenship and taxation are totally related issues, the two faces of the same coin. If I pay taxes somewhere, I have to vote there. I may accept to be deprived of my political rights for a few years while a taxpayer, especially when as in the UK this is mitigated from being able to vote at local or EU level, but that's it, it would be totally unacceptable on the long run. If you are happy to live in the UK or everywhere else as a disfranchised denizen, it is obviously totally up to you, but for me is an unbearable condition.

[Gyfrinachgar]

I personally think that citizenship and taxation are totally related issues, the two faces of the same coin.

If that were true, I would hold citizenship of half a dozen countries already.

If you live in a country, you use its services, you earn your money there, then you pay taxes there. That is a temporary thing and does not entitle to the privilege of being a permanent, lifelong member of that community. What do you expect, that everybody who works here for a brief period automatically gets the citizenship? Or maybe that foreign workers can work here without having to pay taxes because they are not citizens? No state can possibly sustain either. If that really is an "unbearable condition" for someone: nobody is forced to stay.

[aledeniz]

If that were true, I would hold citizenship of half a dozen countries already.

If you live in a country, you use its services, you earn your money there, then you pay taxes there. That is a temporary thing and does not entitle to the privilege of being a permanent, lifelong member of that community. What do you expect, that everybody who works here for a brief period automatically gets the citizenship? Or maybe that foreign workers can work here without having to pay taxes because they are not citizens? No state can possibly sustain either. If that really is an "unbearable condition" for someone: nobody is forced to stay.

I am afraid I am not sure we are really talking about the same point.
I was answering fysicus' statement that as EU citizen he wouldn't never bother about naturalisation, an opinion I don't hold, as that would mean I could never get full political rights. My point is that lacking political rights for ever in a country where you are paying taxes is a big issue, while on the other hand it can be bearable in the knowledge that this is a temporary condition. Am I right to believe that you accept and agree with the concept that someone could "earn" a citizenship and the consequent political rights after paying taxes for a certain number of years? If you agree with that, you shouldn't find nothing wrong with my position, as I moved in the UK knowing that I would get those political rights after a few years of residence (I was just wrong on my assumption of how long it would take, but I agree this is a minor detail).

Please note I have not stated anywhere that I don't wish to pay taxes, I do wish to pay taxes, as long as I have full political rights, or if there is a clear path to get those. If the UK would have had different rules to achieve citizenship and full political rights, i.e. if would have required being a resident taxpayer for 10-15 years, I'd have not moved in the UK, as I don't plan to move in countries where such conditions are not met.

[aledeniz]

If you live in a country, you use its services, you earn your money there, then you pay taxes there. That is a temporary thing and does not entitle to the privilege of being a permanent, lifelong member of that community. What do you expect, that everybody who works here for a brief period automatically gets the citizenship?

Please note that Irish and Commonwealth country citizens can actually register and vote at general elections when lawfully resident in the UK.

I hold the view that this should be allowed also for EU citizens, reciprocally and Unionwide (that's it, a British citizen resident in another EU country should have the right to vote in that country's general election).

[fysicus]

I hold the view that this should be allowed also for EU citizens, reciprocally and Unionwide (that's it, a British citizen resident in another EU country should have the right to vote in that country's general election).

That would certainly be an improvement, but any proposal or suggestion in that direction will almost certainly immediately be vetoed by the UK.

Fysicus, I think that something which does not even cost a single grand all inclusive, and will be with you the rest of your life, doesn't really qualify as "expensive procedure".

Well, I consider anything that I don't need and costs money as expensive.
I'm in the UK for more than 10 years already, and never felt the slightest inclination for naturalisation. For me, it would have the additional drawback that I would lose my original nationality.
And for now, I also don't expect to stay in UK forever.

[aledeniz]

That would certainly be an improvement, but any proposal or suggestion in that direction will almost certainly immediately be vetoed by the UK.

Rightly so, if I may say, as long as people who like myself think otherwise don't stand up, get the citizenship they have earnt, and make themselves heard on the ballot.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

This paragraph is written with non-EU family members in mind but I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to the EU citizen itself.

It applies also to Eu citizens!