Rather complicated Surinder Singh

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:28 pm

Please kindly give your opinion on my case, I am a non EU (Ghanian) family member of a British citizen, we were married last year and made an application to the Irish embassy for the Irish entry visa to join my EU citizen wife in Ireland, the application was refused because they needed enough proof of relationship and the one we provided to them wasn't just enough, and the second reason was that my wife wasn't exercising her treaty rights as of then.

We appealed the decision, they initially said it will take 4 weeks to process the appeal, but it turned out longer than that, basically the appeal was just dump somewhere in the office as we heard, and as soon as it approaches 6 months they will start to review it, in the time as we were waiting on the appeal my wife had secured a good job evidence was forwarded to the embassy.

I made an application to the German embassy in Ghana to meet my wife in Germany which was granted and we both travelled down to Germany, I had at this time withdrew my application at the Irish , my wife got a job offer in Germany and we made an application for residence card which was granted on the spot, that was even prior to my wife starting her new job.

Two weeks into the job my wife had an argument with the boss in her work place, in which she decided to quit, she was only paid for the 2 weeks job she had done. which was around 600 Euros which came down to 400 plus after tax, my wife had gained an admission at a Scottish University where she would like to further her education and we are making plans to return to Scotland together.

We have a son who is Irish/British citizen, I had only visited Ireland once since I have had my residence card in Germany. my questions are below.

Can i make an Surinder Singh application relying on the 2 weeks job in Germany? if not can we make up for the weeks of employment in Ireland? as she has worked the total of 10 months in Ireland where is currently receiving maternity benefit.

Albeit we didn't live together in Ireland can we add on the weeks of employment done in Ireland to make the Surinder Singh application, or will it be advisable that we move to Ireland again temporarily then after having evidence of cohabiting make an application for an EEA family permit from Ireland?

Thank you for taking your time to read my post.

Post by **Obie** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:12 am

There is no fixed period of employment for Surinder Singh, but the employment has to be genuine and effective. How long did she stay in Germany on Total?

It is arguable that the work undertaken in Ireland should be taken into consideration. Whether UK will do so, is another thing.

You could try applying for an EEA family permit and see how it goes.

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:30 am

Obie wrote:There is no fixed period of employment for Surinder Singh, but the employment has to be genuine and effective. How long did she stay in Germany on Total?

It is arguable that the work undertaken in Ireland should be taken into consideration. Whether UK will do so, is another thing.

You could try applying for an EEA family permit and see how it goes.

Thank you very much obie, she stayed the total of 4 months in Germany, It was indeed genuine and effective in that the German immigration knew about the dispute between my wife and her Boss, they also recommended some English speaking Lawyer to my wife should she want to take legal actions.

She did 2 weeks pratical which she wasnt paid the normal money so there wasn't payslip for that we only have payslip for the 2 weeks she did when the contract started.

Thank you obie

Post by **Lucapooka** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:41 am

You won't get an answer one way or another. You will get a few opinions saying this will work and lot of opinions saying that it won't. The simple thing to do is make the free application and see what actually happens. In the very likely event of a refusal you can then decided if you want to appeal.

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:09 am

Thank you the other option am considering is what if I went to Ireland and live there temporarily as my wife had already worked for over 10 months in Ireland, if we live shortly in Ireland and then make the application from Ireland, could it be said that her employment activities would not be taking into consideration because I wasnt living with her at the time when she was working?

Post by **Lucapooka** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:13 am

Assuming nothing to date qualifies you for a practical rather than a theoretical or academic Singh application (and I am), if you went to Ireland your partner would have to be employed or self-employed in that location. Studying, self-sufficiency or job-seeking will not match the conditions for a Singh application.

Post by **Obie** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:28 am

I believe there is a strong case that your wife falls within the ambit of Singh judgement and you also. She is still consider a worker in Ireland, by virtue of her maternity leave status, and the court has ruled that someone one who works in one memberstate and resides in another, should be considered a worker.

You will first need to apply as the other contributor stated, and if rejected, you could fight it out. I am confident you should succeed, but no one can say 100% even in the strongest of cases.

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:16 am

Thank you for all you comments, do you think applying from Ireland would make a strong application as she is still deemed a worker in Ireland or I should apply be applying from Germany.

Thanks

Post by **Lucapooka** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:26 am

Previously you said you were not able to gain entry to Ireland. Apply from there if you can go there and wish to go there; otherwise apply from Germany. Whatever you decide, you should apply from a location where you can remain comfortably for a very long time.

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:34 am

Yes previously I could not visit Ireland, since I have been issued my residence card I have visited once, and I believe my residence card can still be used again in lieu of a visa. Thank you

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:16 pm

If the EU citizen had quit, it might be a more questionable case. But in this case there was a dispute.

Some discussion of being a worker is also http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... -a-worker/

Finally, note that Singh is written to explicitly say that it does not matter the reason the EU citizen went to work abroad. You wanted to move to Ireland but were illegally refused the visa. That is the fault of the Irish, and not of you. That time should clearly count as "Singh clock-time".

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:02 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:If the EU citizen had quit, it might be a more questionable case. But in this case there was a dispute.

Some discussion of being a worker is also http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... -a-worker/

Finally, note that Singh is written to explicitly say that it does not matter the reason the EU citizen went to work abroad. You wanted to move to Ireland but were illegally refused the visa. That is the fault of the Irish, and not of you. That time should clearly count as "Singh clock-time".

Thank you directive, your post had just lighten things up a little in addition to previous posts.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:02 pm

gozo1 wrote:Two weeks into the job my wife had an argument with the boss in her work place, in which she decided to quit, she was only paid for the 2 weeks job she had done. which was around 600 Euros which came down to 400 plus after tax, my wife had gained an admission at a Scottish University where she would like to further her education and we are making plans to return to Scotland together.

When would her program in Scotland start? If it is in June, for instance, then additional full or part time work done in Germany would also count.

Why is you son Irish?

Is your wife also Irish?

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:28 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: When would her program in Scotland start? If it is in June, for instance, then additional full or part time work done in Germany would also count.

Why is you son Irish?

Is your wife also Irish?

Her programme starts September 2013, No my wife is not Irish she is only British, if a British citizen gives birth in Ireland the child acquires Irish citizenship by birth.

Her work in Germany was full time and the vertrag says she would be in probation for 6 months although paid, after which it will be permanent but didnt quite work out.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:41 pm

I think the previous answers about just applying for the EEA FP are good ones. Maybe it is granted and maybe not.

In the mean time, it is worth your wife considering some additional full/part time work. It can be a "mini-job". Even if all her earnings are burned up with child care costs, it establishes her right to return to the UK on the basis of Singh.

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:51 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I think the previous answers about just applying for the EEA FP are good ones. Maybe it is granted and maybe not.

In the mean time, it is worth your wife considering some additional full/part time work. It can be a "mini-job". Even if all her earnings are burned up with child care costs, it establishes her right to return to the UK on the basis of Singh.

We will have to make the application and then wait, my wife cannot work at the moment for medical reasons. Thanks for your comments will update the forum of the outcome.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:40 pm

While I remember, I think your wife could likely get, with likely a little bit of work, get free tuition in Scotland.

She has been working in another EU member state and so exercising her treaty rights. Singh is clear that her family can be treated under EU free movement law. Also there is ECJ rulings on citizens returning to their home country after studying in another EU member state.

See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/10 ... -the-news/

I think the key concept would be that EU citizens entering Scotland to study should not be preferentially treated to your wife who has been working in another EU member state and is now moving to Scotland to study.

You may have to fight a bit for it, but if you save 10,000 pounds per year it may be worth the fight! Solvit would be your first recourse if the university refuses.

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:41 pm

Thanks to everyone who replied to my thread.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:56 pm

You can reapply for an EEA FP. That will be faster. Point out the guidance on the web site. Point out that they are legally required to give you every facility, including access to an ECO who speaks German.

AngieD · Post by **AngieD** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:16 pm

Me and my husband used the Singh route to come to the UK - we submitted Belgium wage slips and work contract - they were not translated into English and nor where we asked to have them translated

gozo1 · Post by **gozo1** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:25 pm

AngieD wrote:Me and my husband used the Singh route to come to the UK - we submitted Belgium wage slips and work contract - they were not translated into English and nor where we asked to have them translated

Thanks AngieD for sharing your experience, I also know people who have applied from Germany and they didn't have to translate their documents into English.

The decision was more to do with deliberate intent to refuse and nothing more to it really.

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Rather complicated Surinder Singh

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