ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Non EU Spouse / EU1 Section 3 Sufficient Resources?

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2, Administrator

Locked
Hrothrekr
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:54 am

Non EU Spouse / EU1 Section 3 Sufficient Resources?

Post by Hrothrekr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:58 am

Hello,

I am trying to get an answer to this question:

I am an Australian National who is married to a Finnish citizen. My wife wishes to move to Ireland in the coming months and I have been looking at the immigration requirements for myself.
At the present time my wife has just ended her studies in Norway and so has no specific employment, we live from my Doctorate Fellowship which comes to about 22000 Euro a year, plus support from her family. I figure that in section 3 of the EU1 form she qualifies as sufficient resources due to my income, but I wanted to confirm that this would meet the Irish requirements as I have found no specific amount quoted on the website.
I can provide evidence of this fellowship (22000 euro) plus we can provide letters of family support and their bank statements. Will this be sufficient?

Also, regarding passports, I read that immigration likes to hold passports for a month. Is there any way around this, as I often travel to conduct short interviews for my research.

I have asked immigration these questions, but i seem to get the run around, referred to other sections of immigration and telephones and emails that are not answered...
Thanks,
Hrothrekr

fatty patty
Senior Member
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:25 pm
Location: Irlanda

Re: Non EU Spouse / EU1 Section 3 Sufficient Resources?

Post by fatty patty » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:59 pm

Hrothrekr wrote:Hello,

I am trying to get an answer to this question:

I am an Australian National who is married to a Finnish citizen. My wife wishes to move to Ireland in the coming months and I have been looking at the immigration requirements for myself.

At the present time my wife has just ended her studies in Norway and so has no specific employment, we live from my Doctorate Fellowship which comes to about 22000 Euro a year, plus support from her family. I figure that in section 3 of the EU1 form she qualifies as sufficient resources due to my income, but I wanted to confirm that this would meet the Irish requirements as I have found no specific amount quoted on the website.
I can provide evidence of this fellowship (22000 euro) plus we can provide letters of family support and their bank statements. Will this be sufficient?

Also, regarding passports, I read that immigration likes to hold passports for a month. Is there any way around this, as I often travel to conduct short interviews for my research.

I have asked immigration these questions, but i seem to get the run around, referred to other sections of immigration and telephones and emails that are not answered...
Thanks,
Hrothrekr
EU1 application means that the EU spouse has to be sufficient herself either in employment/study/enough funds to support.
An EU citizen residing in the State exercises their rights under the Regulations and the Directive by engaging in one of the following activities, as outlined in Regulation 6(2)(a) of the Regulations.

A. Employment

Where the EU citizen is working for an employer in the State. This may include vocational training programmes and some non-proprietary directors of a registered company.

B. Self-employment

Where the EU citizen is a sole trader, in a business partnership, or is a proprietary director of a registered company operating in the State.

C. Study

Where the EU citizen is engaged in a course of study with a qualifying and recognised educational institute or college in the State, while possessing comprehensive sickness/health insurance in respect of them self, their spouse, and any dependants.

D. Involuntary unemployment

Where the EU citizen has been employed in the State for more than one year but has become involuntarily unemployed, and has registered as a job-seeker with a relevant office of the Department of Social Protection and FÃ

Hrothrekr
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:54 am

Post by Hrothrekr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:24 pm

So... even though we are married she has to support herself... she needs to be financially independent to me?
If so, that is... well... ridiculous.
We are married... surely we are a single financial unit?

fatty patty
Senior Member
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:25 pm
Location: Irlanda

Post by fatty patty » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:40 pm

Hrothrekr wrote:So... even though we are married she has to support herself... she needs to be financially independent to me?
If so, that is... well... ridiculous.
We are married... surely we are a single financial unit?
This is how the EU treaty rights go. Although one can be independently assessed when it comes to taxation, don't necessarily have to be jointly assessed for tax purposes so not always a single financial unit. But I understand where you coming from.

Its different when it comes to a person married to an Irish citizen living here in Ireland...that self sufficient condition will not apply to that Irish spouse couple then, I am sure its same rules in Finland for Finnish citizens and their non-EU spouses...but an EU citizen in another EU state has to be self sufficient in their own rights for EU treaty to take effect. This link is more detailed on this matter ...

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... ional.html

Hrothrekr
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:54 am

Post by Hrothrekr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:00 pm

Thanks for your help
But, sorry, I don't really believe that she must be the one with money, it is not this way in Norway, Iceland or Finland. I know this for a fact from personal experience.
My money is our money.

The link says:
"
You can stay in Ireland for up to 3 months without restriction. If you plan to stay more than 3 months, you must either:

Be engaged in economic activity (employed or self employed) or
Have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that you do not become a burden on the social services of Ireland or
Be enrolled as a student or vocational trainee or
Be a family member of a Union citizen in one of the previous categories."

Well she does have sufficient resources because of my employment. This must be the case.
My question pertains more to the amount that is deemed sufficient in order to claim the sufficient resources status.

Is there anyone here who has been through this that could weigh in at this point?

walrusgumble
BANNED
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:30 am
Location: ireland

Post by walrusgumble » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:38 pm

Best Solution would be to open a joint account and pass the money off as either hers or jointly owned by both of ye.

What country is the doctorate dosh coming from ?

Good examples of self sufficiency would also be to have some form of health insurance/sickness cover in addition to the money. Can I assume that ye will be living like students as €22K might not get you too far without other income. (even with all the Lidl/Aldi livestyle) Managable of course.

Hrothrekr
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:54 am

Post by Hrothrekr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:42 pm

The dosh comes from Australia.

I can show evidence of that in my name... I guess i could add her to my account.

Also, we would have letters of support from our families.

And of course health insurance.

What do you think? Enough?

walrusgumble
BANNED
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:30 am
Location: ireland

Post by walrusgumble » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:48 pm

fatty patty wrote:
Hrothrekr wrote:So... even though we are married she has to support herself... she needs to be financially independent to me?
If so, that is... well... ridiculous.
We are married... surely we are a single financial unit?
This is how the EU treaty rights go. Although one can be independently assessed when it comes to taxation, don't necessarily have to be jointly assessed for tax purposes so not always a single financial unit. But I understand where you coming from.

Its different when it comes to a person married to an Irish citizen living here in Ireland...that self sufficient condition will not apply to that Irish spouse couple then, I am sure its same rules in Finland for Finnish citizens and their non-EU spouses...but an EU citizen in another EU state has to be self sufficient in their own rights for EU treaty to take effect. This link is more detailed on this matter ...

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... ional.html
THe self sufficiency rule and Irish spouse does help though. I would not fancy one's chances if the irish spouse was on the dole for a while.

Hrothrekr
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:54 am

Post by Hrothrekr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:55 pm

She's never been on the dole, and she is Finnish...

walrusgumble
BANNED
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:30 am
Location: ireland

Post by walrusgumble » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:58 pm

Hrothrekr wrote:The dosh comes from Australia.

I can show evidence of that in my name... I guess i could add her to my account.

Also, we would have letters of support from our families.

And of course health insurance.

What do you think? Enough?
Maybe bank account statements from your parents with the letters, to show good faith. I suppose you would accept that without regular employment, (lets assume that she never gets work) €22K might be gone very quickly, particularily with you doing your PHD; research aint cheap.

Whatever your reasons for coming to Ireland, I would not rush into things until she gets settled. She can come in freely for 3 months and extra period so long as she is job hunting (and self sufficient) maybe she should just come here for now and see can she get work, see even if you like the place.

You see, the authorities could quite well come back and say, "how is she self sufficient" if she is de facto financially depended on you or her family? As you know your right to be here is on the basis that she is exercising her rights.

With regard to Norway, she was studing, i don't think EU law really cares where the money is coming from when she shows self sufficiency there, after all, she is coming in like a customer, spreading her money into another country. She can have her family then so long as she can afford it. Did the Norwegian and Finnish authorities inquire as to where her funds were coming from? Hence where patty comes in with advice.

You say you are working, do you mean researching for PHD? or a job here?

I would point out, that you may in fact be correct! In Chen 2004 for example, (although dealing with an EU child, but an exceptional case which unlessly accepted that a parent could be dependent on the birth place of a child, if they have money) the source of income did not come from the mother who lived in UK, but from the father, a business person living in China. I am aware of a few other British Immigration cases and I do think EU might agree with you. But for the sake of sanity, try and make it look like she has the dosh. Contact solvit or EU law agency specialist for tips. I don't wish to sound contraversial, but the Irish might not take the words , as pointed by patty, literally, as you are Australian and not a country preceived to be a "floodgate" type of country. (again, i am not trying to sound contraversial for anyone reading. I would be happy to expand and explain myself, and do so respectively)
Last edited by walrusgumble on Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hrothrekr
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:54 am

Post by Hrothrekr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:03 pm

I get paid a wage it isn't a lump sum. But it amounts to 22k p.a.
Its a continuing thing.
We live on it in Norway... I comparison life is cheap in Ireland...
I guess we live simply but of course immigration doesn't really consider that.
We have been to Ireland many times and honeymooned there.

So... there is nothing solid defined for "sufficient resources"???

walrusgumble
BANNED
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:30 am
Location: ireland

Post by walrusgumble » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:05 pm

Hrothrekr wrote:She's never been on the dole, and she is Finnish...
sorry i was responding to pattys comments that self sufficiency does not apply to people married to irish citizens. he is right, but i still would not rely on it

walrusgumble
BANNED
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:30 am
Location: ireland

Post by walrusgumble » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:17 pm

Hrothrekr wrote:I get paid a wage it isn't a lump sum. But it amounts to 22k p.a.
Its a continuing thing.
We live on it in Norway... I comparison life is cheap in Ireland...
I guess we live simply but of course immigration doesn't really consider that.
We have been to Ireland many times and honeymooned there.

So... there is nothing solid defined for "sufficient resources"???
correct, there is no solid definition of "sufficient resources" I think there is a bit on Artilce 8 of Directive 2004/38EC. See the Commissioners Communication of 2008ish on free movement, there maybe guidelines there.

Article 8
Administrative formalities for Union citizens
1. Without prejudice to Article 5(5), for periods of residence
longer than three months, the host Member State may require
Union citizens to register with the relevant authorities.

2. The deadline for registration may not be less than three
months from the date of arrival. A registration certificate shall
be issued immediately, stating the name and address of the
person registering and the date of the registration. Failure to
comply with the registration requirement may render the
person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory
sanctions.

3. For the registration certificate to be issued, Member States
may only require that

— Union citizens to whom point (a) of Article 7(1) applies
present a valid identity card or passport, a confirmation of
engagement from the employer or a certificate of employment,
or proof that they are self-employed persons,

— Union citizens to whom point (b) of Article 7(1) applies
present a valid identity card or passport and provide proof
that they satisfy the conditions laid down therein,

— Union citizens to whom point (c) of Article 7(1) applies
present a valid identity card or passport, provide proof of
enrolment at an accredited establishment and of comprehensive
sickness insurance cover and the declaration or
equivalent means referred to in point (c) of Article 7(1).
Member States may not require this declaration to refer to
any specific amount of resources.

4. Member States may not lay down a fixed amount which
they regard as ‘sufficient resources’, but they must take into
account the personal situation of the person concerned. In all
cases this amount shall not be higher than the threshold below
which nationals of the host Member State become eligible for
social assistance, or, where this criterion is not applicable,
higher than the minimum social security pension paid by the
host Member State.



try out europa.eu it has links to more authoritive people to talk too and case law searches.

If i had time i would check into it better, sadly I don't - it really is make it up as you go along, from EU level, but it must not be a suitation where its arbitary and practically frustrates one's right to free movement.

Sounds like ye will be ok in getting by money wise. try daft.ie for flats/houses/rent. No harm being fully prepared before coming

Hrothrekr
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:54 am

Post by Hrothrekr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:38 pm

"amount shall not be higher than the threshold below
which nationals of the host Member State become eligible for
social assistance, or, where this criterion is not applicable,
higher than the minimum social security pension paid by the
host Member State. "

Does anyone know what this amounts to???


We plan just to rent a very cheap studio flat until we get something more... so hopefully it looks realistic...
Thanks for your help guys.

fatty patty
Senior Member
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:25 pm
Location: Irlanda

Post by fatty patty » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:39 am

Hrothrekr wrote:"amount shall not be higher than the threshold below
which nationals of the host Member State become eligible for
social assistance, or, where this criterion is not applicable,
higher than the minimum social security pension paid by the
host Member State. "

Does anyone know what this amounts to???


We plan just to rent a very cheap studio flat until we get something more... so hopefully it looks realistic...
Thanks for your help guys.
I think you do have a very good chance but make sure to have a full health sickness cover as it is stated in the conditions by INIS/EU fam guidelines. In my opinion the amount where one becomes a dependent or should i say qualify for state resources is if they are earning around €127 a week. That is if they are earning that much and if only working 2-3 days they can claim social welfare for the rest of the days. Now as you said that you are earning €22k this means your weekly income is €432 you are well above that burden on the state threshold in my opinion. I would strongly suggest a joint bank account in both of your name as walrus suggested a good idea and to be honest it is manageable to be in 22k salary and support yourself and wife as prices are falling although a little challenging. Cost of living is coming down here in Ireland not as fast as hoped but defnitely are, you can see rents in Ireland for e.g. comparing what they were 2 years ago.

viennalove
Newbie
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:02 pm
Location: United States

Post by viennalove » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:22 pm

Does anyone have an updated figure for this?

Brigid from Ireland
Member of Standing
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:01 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Post by Brigid from Ireland » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:08 pm

Husband/single person = 186/week
Wife = 124.80 /week
Child = 29.80 / week each

The above rates are the amount paid by social welfare, ie the amount that social welfare considers you need to live on each week.

You must also be able to cover the cost of accommodation in the part of Ireland where you intend to live, for a family of your size. Say 500 to 1,000 euro per month for a family, depending on the town you live in.

Also health insurance.

If you have the above amounts each week, plus cost of accommodation and health insurance, you are independent of state support.
BL

Locked