So confused, ahhhhhhhh!!

[ltb86]

Hi all, i really need just a lowdown on the specific procedure/order in relation to applying for EEA family permit. All the terminology and categories are getting quite confusing, i had thought i was getting the hang of it.

Basically i am a British citizen will be married to non eu spouse, we have 1 daughter. We want to move to Ireland to live together because we do not qualify under UK rules. My husband will need a visa, i believe this to be an EUTR visa, although i have looked on the INIS website and there is no specific category stating 'EUTR' visa, the categories are either long or short stay? Which should we be applying for? Do we need to make it clear our intentions for coming to Ireland (to settle) or should we be applying as a 'visitor' initially? Its so confusing! Then, when we are in Ireland, what is the next step? Is it residence certificate for my husband EEA1? And what is EEA2/3? I have heard from a lot of posts of applications taking a long time, is this for like permanent residence cards? I'm hoping it wouldnt take a year to issue my husband with a residence cert because we want to move back to UK, and we'd have to make sure to budget for a years living expenses? Please can anyone clarify for me i think im just getting it all a little mixed up! Thanks so much

[frei]

Your husband will require a type C visa (Visitors visa) pursuant to the EU directives, when you arrive in Ireland you will need to exercise your treaty rights in by engaging in employment, or self employed, the rest options would not apply to you as you are planning to move back to the UK it is only on those 2 bases an EEA family permit would be issued to your husband via the singh route.

After which you must have satisfied one of the above conditions, your husband will make an application for residence card, if all the documents received are deemed sufficient you would receive a letter in the post asking you to go to the local immigration office (Gardai) to get a 6 months 4EUFAM stamp, they expected his residence card application to be processed within this time frame, after a successful application he will receive another 4 EUFAM this time for 5 years long, it's referred to as Residence card.

[boloney]

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Jo ... EU_Citizen this maybe helpful

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You (the EU citizen) must have worked in the host member state. So you will need to find a job there. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... -a-worker/ for more information about working in this regard.

[ltb86]

Your husband will require a type C visa (Visitors visa) pursuant to the EU directives, when you arrive in Ireland you will need to exercise your treaty rights in by engaging in employment, or self employed, the rest options would not apply to you as you are planning to move back to the UK it is only on those 2 bases an EEA family permit would be issued to your husband via the singh route.

After which you must have satisfied one of the above conditions, your husband will make an application for residence card, if all the documents received are deemed sufficient you would receive a letter in the post asking you to go to the local immigration office (Gardai) to get a 6 months 4EUFAM stamp, they expected his residence card application to be processed within this time frame, after a successful application he will receive another 4 EUFAM this time for 5 years long, it's referred to as Residence card.

Hi all, thanks for your replies, i have done much reading but there are just a few points i need further clarification on: Frei, im a little confused about the residnce card and how long it will take. You say when i am working we will need to apply for a residence card, but then you say that residence card is the card valid for 5 years. What i really need to know is once i am working, we will need to apply straight away for something so that we do not breech the 3 months rule. Is that EUfam4? And is it valid for 6 months, how long does it take for them to issue the EUfam4? SO once we have EUfam4 status does that mean we can apply to UK? Because i would have been working...? Sorry i'm not clear on this at all

Also one more thing, on the Irish embassy website of my partners home country, it states the following: (in contradiction to Frei's post)

"All non EU nationals who wish to stay longer than 3 months in Ireland must register with the Garda National Immigration Bureau and apply for permission to remain in Ireland. For further information on registration and residence in Ireland please click here.

Visa-required nationals who wish to stay longer than 90 days should apply for a 'D' type visa in advance of travel. In general, permission to enter on the basis of a 'C' type visa will not give rise to permission to remain beyond a 90 day period."

So i am worried, if he applies for type C visa, even if i am working, they could still turn around and refuse us because of this little nitpick. I would email the embassy, but conveniently they don't give their email address out. I will need to call them as soon as i have a better idea what i am talking about. *So please reply!*

Thanks

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

4EUFam is a Residence Card, and should normally be valid for 5 years from the date of issue. It can take up to 6 months to issue.

So long as the couple are married and the EU citizen is doing the right kind of thing (like working), the non-EU citizen will legally be resident in the host member state. That is true even if the initial visa has expired and no Residence Card has yet been issued.

Often the embassy web sites will have little or no correct information relevant for the spouse of an EU citizen.

[frei]

Type C visa is what your husband needs to apply for, his right to residence is not derived from the Irish national immigration rules, so all of that you have copied would not apply to your husband, even if he opted for a type D visa there would be no room to accept such application for him at the embassy as clearly he would not fit to apply under that category.

There are 2 types of EUFAM4 documents in Ireland, the first one is issued temporarily after you have submitted an application for residence card and they have accepted to proceed with the application, the first one would be valid for 6 months during which time they expected to make a decision on the actual residence card which would be have a 5 year validity.

[ltb86]

Excellent thank you so much, this has exactly answered my queries! I feel more confident now.

So with the 'temporary' EUfam4 stamp in my husbands passport, are we able to apply to UK for EEA family permit, as clearly we would have been exercising treaty rights in order to get the temporary stamp?

Also, would we need medical insurance for all of us? I read somewhere else that if i was either working or could prove i was jobseeking, this is not required?

Thanks so much again!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Excellent thank you so much, this has exactly answered my queries! I feel more confident now.

So with the 'temporary' EUfam4 stamp in my husbands passport, are we able to apply to UK for EEA family permit, as clearly we would have been exercising treaty rights in order to get the temporary stamp?

Also, would we need medical insurance for all of us? I read somewhere else that if i was either working or could prove i was jobseeking, this is not required?

Thanks so much again!

He does not need to have a RC in his passport at all. Not relevant. What is relevant is that the British citizen has been working in Ireland.

[frei]

I would suggest you apply and receive your EHIC card before moving to Ireland if you have not already have one, it will cover your medical expenses for if one arises during your time of job seeking in Ireland. If you do find employment you will be covered by the state insurance so there would be no need to purchase a private insurance except that you will need it personally for services which are not available via the normal state insurance.


As directive had said above, all that matters would be proof of your work activities in Ireland, he would have already automatically acquired the right of residence in Ireland, residence card is merely a confirmation of the right and to ease travel for the holder.
You would not normally need a resident card to be eligible to make an surinder singh application.

[ltb86]

Good advice thank you Directive and Frei, i was under the impression we definitely needed the residence card/certificate or something in place in order to come back to UK. If not, then that is much better news. Iought we would be waiting for the application to be processed before we could come back to UK. So now i know we just need to concentrate on finding work promptly. So how long do you think we should be working for before we apply to come back to UK? is 4 or 5 months enough? Or should we hang out a bit longer. If they refuse first time can we continue working and apply later?

Thanks for all your great help. Also i did find an email address for the Irish embassy Hanoi on another website than their own, i did email them for some advice on timescales and required documents but as yet they have not got back to me! I wonder if they will, maybe i should just call them...

[frei]

I have seen people with that time frame or slightly shorter went on to make an successful surinder singh application, 6 month would be well sufficient as there is no given time that the EU citizen must have worked abroad, like in Denmark 10 weeks would deemed a sufficient time the last time i checked.

You could re-forward the message back to the Irish and asking if they would be kind enough to confirm by return and as well chase them up with a call.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You can always apply for an EEA FP from Ireland. If refused for some reason, then wait a few more weeks and apply again!

[ltb86]

And thats what we shall do! But i wonder how long the UKBA take to issue EEA FP's? I bet we will be waiting some time! I just have this horrible thought running around in my head that its going to take ages, the whole process, but our savings will be going down and down and....we just want to get back to UK asap where everything is familiar and grounded!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The British citizen will be working, so hopefully your savings will not be going done very fast. The non-EU citizen can also work if they want.

[frei]

And thats what we shall do! But i wonder how long the UKBA take to issue EEA FP's? I bet we will be waiting some time! I just have this horrible thought running around in my head that its going to take ages, the whole process, but our savings will be going down and down and....we just want to get back to UK asap where everything is familiar and grounded!

Don't get all worked up already, it's not as so difficult as you have imagined, the bit I would consider difficult is getting your spouse an entry visa to Ireland, once that's been achieved the rest of it would be pretty straight forward really. you can easily travel from Ireland to the UK without having to apply for the family permit, once he is in everything will fall into place.

You should try and make your application at the Irish embassy as soon as you can, make sure you provide tons of evidence of relationship history of course having a child together is a mile stone in achieving this but additional proofs such as email exchanges, telephone statements showing incoming and outgoing calls to him and from him would just make for a grand application.

[Obie]

Since this topic involves movement to Ireland, i believe it is best place at the Irish Forum, i am therefore moving this thread to Ireland Forum.

[Malika]

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 0058bb6059

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=121789

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=120988

[st pauli]

And thats what we shall do! But i wonder how long the UKBA take to issue EEA FP's? I bet we will be waiting some time! I just have this horrible thought running around in my head that its going to take ages, the whole process, but our savings will be going down and down and....we just want to get back to UK asap where everything is familiar and grounded!

Don't get all worked up already, it's not as so difficult as you have imagined, the bit I would consider difficult is getting your spouse an entry visa to Ireland, once that's been achieved the rest of it would be pretty straight forward really. you can easily travel from Ireland to the UK without having to apply for the family permit, once he is in everything will fall into place.

You should try and make your application at the Irish embassy as soon as you can, make sure you provide tons of evidence of relationship history of course having a child together is a mile stone in achieving this but additional proofs such as email exchanges, telephone statements showing incoming and outgoing calls to him and from him would just make for a grand application.

Surely this is not necessary for the EUTR visa to come to Ireland, if they are married then all they should have to show is a legal marriage certificate? I understand your post if they were just partners, but OP said they will be married.

Am I missing something here?

[frei]

Surely it is a requirement mostly by the UKBA AND INIS, you could try making an application without this evidence and see how quickly they can have a reason to deny the application, they were suppose to know a genuine marriage from a convenience one , the only way to know this is by requesting these proofs

[st pauli]

Surely it is a requirement mostly by the UKBA AND INIS, you could try making an application without this evidence and see how quickly they can have a reason to deny the application, they were suppose to know a genuine marriage from a convenience one , the only way to know this is by requesting these proofs

I don't know about UKBA, but on the INIS site this isn't among the documents required listed for these visas for spouses and civil partners - only for unregistered partners.

[frei]

Surely it is a requirement mostly by the UKBA AND INIS, you could try making an application without this evidence and see how quickly they can have a reason to deny the application, they were suppose to know a genuine marriage from a convenience one , the only way to know this is by requesting these proofs

I don't know about UKBA, but on the INIS site this isn't among the documents required listed for these visas for spouses and civil partners - only for unregistered partners.

You can certainly apply to the Irish without one and I would like to know how that went, if you go on INIS website under visa category to join Irish spouse it's fully stated on the website for some dodgy reason it's been removed from the EU requirements because it has always been there in the past and even people who provided such evidence have been deemed not sufficient evidence enough and subsequently refused on that reason.

[st pauli]

Surely it is a requirement mostly by the UKBA AND INIS, you could try making an application without this evidence and see how quickly they can have a reason to deny the application, they were suppose to know a genuine marriage from a convenience one , the only way to know this is by requesting these proofs

I don't know about UKBA, but on the INIS site this isn't among the documents required listed for these visas for spouses and civil partners - only for unregistered partners.

You can certainly apply to the Irish without one and I would like to know how that went, if you go on INIS website under visa category to join Irish spouse it's fully stated on the website for some dodgy reason it's been removed from the EU requirements because it has always been there in the past and even people who provided such evidence have been deemed not sufficient evidence enough and subsequently refused on that reason.

Maybe the EU commission came down on INIS as it's not usual to ask for such proof for non-EU spouses governed by the Directive 2004/58/EC . I'm not entirely sure it's technically legal.

It is of course common practice for this kind of proof to be required for marriage visas to one spouses' country of citizenship, so no surprise it's different for the 'Join Irish'

[frei]

I kind of disagree with you on that, member states are within their remit to take reasonable measures to determine a marriage to a Union citizen is genuine before the non eu spouses could avail of the benefits attached to the directive. they are allowed to refuse visa, cancelled already issued visa or residence card if they have sufficient proof that the marriage is of convenience.

The commission cannot in fact instruct member states on what documents they should request as it is not even binding. INIS knows the only way they can easily refuse an EUTR visa would be for the common reason they have adopted i.e Relationship history and I do not see them backing down on that, and in sincerity how are they suppose to spot marriage of convenience? I know sometimes even an applicant present enough evidence the INIS still refuse them on this shamefully no one can do anything about it.

In the end they have ended up issuing such visas on appeal but it takes time and that is the sole goal of the Relationship history bullshit, to refuse and then put an application to appeal to cause delay.

You can try making an application without one and let's see how that will go but to avoid wasting your own time and for your sake only its better to include it as supporting documents

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Surely it is a requirement mostly by the UKBA AND INIS, you could try making an application without this evidence and see how quickly they can have a reason to deny the application, they were suppose to know a genuine marriage from a convenience one , the only way to know this is by requesting these proofs

National governments are legally strictly limited in the information they can require. They typically ask for a lot more, but can not require it.

Reading through the case of Papajorgji (EEA spouse – marriage of convenience) Greece [2012] UKUT 00038 (IAC) is very worthwhile. It is like a tutorial in this area.

4. [The applicant] appealed to the First-tier Tribunal expressing disappointment that her marriage had been characterised as one of convenience and pointing out that she had not been asked to provide such documents but that the telephone bill was in her husband’s name. She offered to show her album of photographs but expressed surprise that a marriage of 14 years standing of which there were two children with everyone living in a common household should be so treated. She had in fact provided information to this effect on the application form.


11. Mr Hopkin [UKBA presenting officer] realistically acknowledged that the refusal of the entry clearance was indefensible on its facts, although he reserved the right to argue that a failure to produce relevant evidence could justify the refusal of an EEA application [...]


40. In our judgement this case from first to last never had any appearance remotely suggesting that the marriage was one of convenience. The decision was flawed and not in accordance with the law. The First-tier Judge reached the right result on the evidence before him.

41. The Entry Clearance Officer’s appeal is accordingly dismissed. We direct that the family permit be issued promptly on receipt of this determination as it should have been eighteen months ago.