Worth applying for Family Permit when travelling by train?

[jonathan1989]

Hello

Me a British citizen and my none EU spouse with a German residency card plan to travel to England by Eurostar, Frankfurt to Brussels, Brussels to London. We could apply for a family permit but the cost of a long trip to the nearest Embassy is a cost we could do without, and I know that under EU law no such permit should really be required.

I just wondered if anyone had any experience with immigration in Brussels boarding the Eurostar to London? I imagine it's a lot easier than trying to board a plane, but could my wife still be denied?

Thanks in advance for your help
Yours, Jonathan

(Oh and we hope to enter under surinder singh as I've been working here in Germany for the last year.)

[Lucapooka]

You are British and the conditions are different for you than for, say, a German. If your partner is a visa national and is expecting to enter the UK without a UK visit visa, under EU rules, she you would need to be travelling with you and provide proof that you are working. You can't, realistically, expect to use Singh without an EEA permit if you are not carrying this evidence. Good luck.

[jonathan1989]

Thanks for the reply. I would be travelling with her and we would naturally carry our marriage certificate along with my German work contract and pay slips for the last year, plus her German residency card. Would this be enough to satisfy without the family permit or could we be denied boarding on the Eurostar?

[Lucapooka]

I don't know but if you can't wait for the outcome of an application for an EEA permit you may have no choice other than to try. It may involve a delay while they scrutinize your evidence. There would be no delay if she had a vignette in her passport.

[Obie]

I will move this topic to the EEA section, as i believe you will get more replies from there.

Eurostar will not see you ticket or allow your wife to board without an EEA family permit. I do understand there is a way via Belgium, that people enter the UK, which the government is seeking to stop.

I believe if you enter a UK border post, your wife should be allowed to enter with you.

I wish you all the best.

[Jambo]

I believe UKBA official are present in Brussels and examine passengers with tickets to London. Assuming you can provide evidence you qualify for Surinder Singh, you should be fine. See MelC - Surninder Singh @ Calais.

[jonathan1989]

Thank you, so I should be able to speak to UKBA officials and then allowed entry to Eurostar? Having never been through France to England I don't know how the controls and border works there.

Eurostar will not see you ticket or allow your wife to board without an EEA family permit. I do understand there is a way via Belgium, that people enter the UK, which the government is seeking to stop.
I believe if you enter a UK border post, your wife should be allowed to enter with you.

So you think Eurostar would deny me before I got to a border or the UKBA would allow me but then Eurostar would deny me? I'm a little confused.

Thank you

[Jambo]

Haven't travelled from Brusells myself but I believe it is the same as from Paris which means the immigration checks are done in Brusells before boarding the train. In this case, I don't think you will have any issues with the train company as long as the UKBA approves your wife's entry.

[jonathan1989]

Thank you that's good to know. If we can manage it in time we may just get the family permit so that it's settled, I just resent taking a day off work, travelling all the way to Berlin and then paying €20 more for the courier service to return our documents, the costs begin to add up for a free visa!

Has anyone got any personal experiance of the UKBA at Brussels reaction to turning up without a permit?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

UKBA calls the border screenings in France and Belgium "Juxtaposed Controls". Because the border agencies are there screening the passengers themselves, then the carrier (usually?) does not do it themselves.

ILPA has a note to the independent inspector of UKBA suggesting things to check with respect to the Juxtaposed Controls

2. Compliance with the law as per the judgment of the European Court
of Justice in MRAX v Belgium C-459/99

We are concerned at instances, which in members’ experience are now less
frequent, where immigration officers on these routes do not understand the legal
position as set out by the Court of Justice in MRAX (Mouvement contre le racisme,
l’antisémitisme et la xénophobie ABSL).

The cost of applying for an EEA FP can be very high. I recently talked with somebody who had paid almost 1000 euros to make the application. And that does not even count the cost of taking (at least) a day off work.

I suspect you will have no problems if you carefully carry the documentation you require with you, but there are no absolute guarantees in life. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

[jonathan1989]

Thanks again for the help I've received here.
I've decided to try for the family permit and hope it comes through in time.

One question though. Our marriage certificate, passports, are in English but my work contract and pay slips are naturally in Deutsch. It just occurred to me they may want them translated to? To find someone to translate pages of pay slips though would be a big job, and there is no time left now before we travel for the appointment at the visa center.
Do you think we will be ok without translations?

[Jambo]

Should be fine. As you are applying in Germany, the local staff should be familiar with German and German payslips.

[jonathan1989]

Thanks again for all the help I've received here.

We went to apply for the permit on Monday, WorldBridge like their extra services, 40 Euros to sent the application to the main center and have it returned again!

I just hope we get the passport and documents back before February, I'll let you know how we get on.

[jonathan1989]

Hello

Just to let you know we received the passport back today, with permit, far quicker than expected (8 working days!).

I want to thank those who give advice here for being a great source of information, over the last 2 years I'd be at a loss without the posts and threads that I have been able to view here.

I have two more questions which I will ask here but please move it to a new thread if necessary as it's unrelated to this threads title.


We return to England in February and will apply for a residency card and hopefully eventually permanent residence. Can I submit a EEA2 application as soon as I register as a job seeker? And presuming I find work in the month/months following is it necessary I then update the home office and how? Or is the better option to find work first and then apply?

The second question relates to benefits, as I understand I can claim all benefits that I could claim as a single person, so housing benefit, job seekers allowance, income support, etc, is that correct? And if so how do I answer when I'm asked if I'm married or single, as I'm married but my wife can't claim? Is there any benefits my wife is entitled to without affecting an eventual EEA4 application? And lastly hoping we will have children over the five years what benefits could we claim as a family?

Thanks again
Jonathan

Ps: I read the thread 'Benefits : affecting ILR?' but wasn't really sure after reading about specific benefits in our case.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The second question relates to benefits, as I understand I can claim all benefits that I could claim as a single person, so housing benefit, job seekers allowance, income support, etc, is that correct? And if so how do I answer when I'm asked if I'm married or single, as I'm married but my wife can't claim? Is there any benefits my wife is entitled to without affecting an eventual EEA4 application? And lastly hoping we will have children over the five years what benefits could we claim as a family?

Ps: I read the thread 'Benefits : affecting ILR?' but wasn't really sure after reading about specific benefits in our case.

Why do you think you can claim benefits and your wife can not? Both the EU citizen and the family member are fully resident in the UK. There is no difference.

I would frankly focus on both of you trying to find work quickly. Benefits take a lot of time to apply for, and you are better off getting paid instead.

[Jambo]

The OP is British so he has no restrictions with regards to benefits (at least immigration wise).

Under Surinder Singh, you don't need to exercise treaty rights once you are back in the UK. Your wife can apply for a 5 years Residence Card the next day. The only required evidence is proof of your employment and residence in another EEA state (the exact same evidence you used for the EEA Family Permit). The same evidence will need to be provided again after 5 years for the PR Confirmation application.

[jonathan1989]

I would frankly focus on both of you trying to find work quickly. Benefits take a lot of time to apply for, and you are better off getting paid instead.

I will do but know finding work could also take a while, I have a little saved to keep us for a few months but not enough to call is self sufficient. I wondered if signing straight on as a job seeker and submitting the EEA2 as one would work as it would mean being able to submit it earlier perhaps than waiting for a job.

I also would like to know where we stand with benefits thinking ahead to the next 5 years not knowing what they may bring.

Why do you think you can claim benefits and your wife can not? Both the EU citizen and the family member are fully resident in the UK. There is no difference.

Even though I am British? I was under the impression that I must exercise treaty rights for 5 years during which time I must be able to support my wife without using public funds to do so?

The OP is British so he has no restrictions with regards to benefits (at least immigration wise).

Under Surinder Singh, you don't need to exercise treaty rights once you are back in the UK. Your wife can apply for a 5 years Residence Card the next day. The only required evidence is proof of your employment and residence in another EEA state (the exact same evidence you used for the EEA Family Permit). The same evidence will need to be provided again after 5 years for the PR Confirmation application.

That means during the 5 years, (although I will be working I hope!), I would not have to exercise treaty rights or prove I have but it all rests on my actions here in Germany? Do they require no other evidence for PR and later citizenship as to what we've done/not done for the 5 years in England ?!

[Jambo]

Under Surinder Singh, you don't need to exercise treaty rights once you are back in the UK. Your wife can apply for a 5 years Residence Card the next day. The only required evidence is proof of your employment and residence in another EEA state (the exact same evidence you used for the EEA Family Permit). The same evidence will need to be provided again after 5 years for the PR Confirmation application.

That means during the 5 years, (although I will be working I hope!), I would not have to exercise treaty rights or prove I have but it all rests on my actions here in Germany? Do they require no other evidence for PR and later citizenship as to what we've done/not done for the 5 years in England ?!

Correct. Your activities in the UK are not relevant. Only residence is required.

See Absence from the country and exercising of treaty rights and 2011-05 Regulation 9 and Eind and Surinder Singh.

[jonathan1989]

Wow that's incredible, so after returning from Germany the only thing that can be required is that I live in England with my wife!
I had no knowledge of Eind only Surinder Singh.

Once I gain I'm indebted to yourself and Directive/2004/38/EC, thank you you've made my day!

[johnlk]

Just stumbled across this thread as I am in pretty much the same situation as you jonathan, and google led me here.

One thing I would suggest (as others have suggested to me), would be to apply for your wife's National Insurance number before applying for her Residency Card. This is because she may well need her passport to prove her identity at the interview.
From my understanding, you may need her details (including NINO) on certain benefit claim forms, even if the claim is made just by you, so might be more of a priority, also for if she wants to find work.

My wife and I will be entering the UK at the end of January, and will be going through all this too.
Shame there isn't a sticky for us SS route members, and guides of what to do on first arrival.

[jonathan1989]

Thanks for the advice John. The end of January to... I wonder which of us gets the card first!

[Mymorg]

hey - a question for johnathan1989 :
how long were you working in germany? and also, what exactly did you need to show at the berlin office in order to get your permit? me and my husb. are in a very similar situation: me (us) and my husband (uk) just moved to germany... he's an english teacher and has already found work on a freelance (contract to contract) basis - although he does have interviews coming up for longer contracts- we are thinking of using surrinder singh in the future (provided it isn't closed off) maybe within 6 months to a year.
question to all : is there a stipulation that my uk husband must have an "extended" contract job (ex 6 months to a year) in order for us to get an eea family permit for england? Does anyone know if 6 months is enough? his tax bracket is freelance worker - is this okay for an eea permit?
thanks so much! we're not trying to rush this but if it's doable, we'd rather live closer to family and take the chance on an EEA family permit while we... still have the chance. Thanks so much for your input!! ^_~

[jonathan1989]

Hey Mymorg

I believe there is no set time amount to be working but guidelines of 6 months are set, although as long as the employment is genuine you can always try applying before. I have been working since February 27th 2012, with a break in the summer and a new contract beginning again in September, so around 10 months in total. Both contracts were shorter than 6 months, around 5 months.

I submitted both employment contracts and a handful of payslips from over the period (in Deutsch without translation), a copy of our rental agreement in both our names (also in Deutsch without translation), my wife's German residency card, marriage certificate, a rubbish bill in my wife's name, and both our address registration certificates (the ones you get from the town hall). Oh and a cover letter from me, assuring that my wife would be travelling with me and be supported by me during her time in England.

I wish you all the best!

[Mymorg]

Thanks so much!! when the time comes... I'll update if we "make it"
In the words of arnold, I'll be back

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

we are thinking of using surrinder singh in the future (provided it isn't closed off) maybe within 6 months to a year.

question to all : is there a stipulation that my uk husband must have an "extended" contract job (ex 6 months to a year) in order for us to get an eea family permit for england? Does anyone know if 6 months is enough? his tax bracket is freelance worker - is this okay for an eea permit?

I have never seen anyone even suggest a realistic way to "close off" surrinder singh. Legally they can not do it. The case has been in place for 20 years now and is not going anywhere.

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... -a-worker/ describes the kind of work that needs to done.