Can I (UK National)& wife (non EU National) live in Irel

st pauli · Post by **st pauli** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:47 pm

I'm not an expert here, but I've heard that just living in the CTA doesn't satisfy the habitual residence condition for unemployment benefit in Ireland - it has to be 2 years' residence in the Republic of Ireland itself. Other benefits may be different however.

I only heard this because somebody on a different board moved from Britain to Ireland as a British citizen and went on about how the first two years were a struggle as they didn't qualify for dole.

I believe you can transfer your existing JSA from the UK to another EU member state though, if you're already a claimant. This is will undoubtedly be subject to certain conditions and not available to everyone but it's there.

Don't know about transferring any other benefits.

lukejones · Post by **lukejones** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:12 pm

UK JSA can only be transferred if it's contribution based. Income based cannot be transferred.
The problem is: you said "unemployment benefit", but really, we need the exact name, because being turned down for one type, doesnt mean you will be turned down for another.
In Ireland there are:
Job seekers benefit;
Job seekers allowance;
Supplimentary Welfare allowance.
The first is contribution based; the second is income based; the third is income based in the case that you do not qualify for the second one.
So, you can be turned down for the first because you havent paid enough into the Irish National insurance system; but you could qualify for the second.
That's why I asked specifically about the Supplimentary Welfare allowance, because it's probably the easiest for an immigrant to claim.

agniukas · Post by **agniukas** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:25 pm

Information of jobseekers allowance:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/so ... wance.html

Information on jobseekers benefit:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/so ... nefit.html

Information on supplementary welfare allowance:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/so ... allow.html

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:32 pm

Hi Luke,

UK and/or Irish citizens who have lived in the Common Travel Area are not automatically habitually resident in Ireland. (They were when the the habitual residence rules were first introduced,about ten years ago, but this has changed.) The habitual residence test is done for all new applications for means tested assistance payments, regardless of where you were living recently.

I am very sure that every Irish/UK/EU resident in Ireland can be refused Supplemenary Welfare Allowance on the basis of habitual residence grounds, if their habitual residence is open to query.

If an EU citizen works as an employee in Ireland for six months (and can proove this with payslips for 26 weeks), they have then acquired an entitlement to six months SWA if they lose the job/get sick, if they claim immediately.
If the EU citizen works as an employee in Ireland for 12 months (52 weeks) it is very likely that they could claim SWA for life, so long as they applied straight after they stop working.

Parents are obliged to provide for children age 16/17 years. If they can't provide, foster care for the teenage child is provided. The exceptions to this are Disability Allowance (from age 16) and One Parent Family payment (from birth of child, even if mum gives birth at age 13). All conditions associated with these payments would need to be met.

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:45 pm

Hi Luke,

You should apply for all of the payments, because you don't know which one might be easier to get. It depends on your circumstances, and a lot of people apply for a payment they are not entitled to get, failing to realise that there is a payment they do qualify for. Therefore, apply for everything.

You might think SWA is the easiest for an immigrant to claim, and maybe it is, depending on the circumstances.

But consider this. The insurance you paid in Britain is counted in Ireland. Therefore if you worked for all (or sometimes even half) of 2011 in the UK (or Poland...) you need to work for a grand total of one DAY in Ireland to activate those contributions. Contributions gained cos you were on welfare in Britain might also be counted (depends - too complicated to explain here).

Work one day, then your claim for unemployment benefit rests on the contributions paid anywhere in Europe in 2011 (two years ago). If you paid cons in 2011, there is no habitual residence requirement for Jobseekers Benefit, so you could get 9 months payment for yourself, your wife and any kids, with no worry regarding habitual residence.

That is just one example, I could give lots, but it depends on the individual case.

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:56 pm

Hi ltb86,

Child benefit is payable in Ireland if either parent is employed or self employed in Ireland. In practice this means that if you do not get a job within weeks, you should register as self employed and at least get your child benefit (130/month/child). It may take a long time to process your claim, but it is paid eventually.

There is no child tax credit in Ireland (unless the parent is single or the child is disabled), so you can't get this.
You can get something even better, called Family Income Supplement. This is actual money, not a credit, and there is no habitual residence requirement. The requirement is that you have a child living with you, and either parent must work a minimum of 20 hours per week. (You can work more than 20 hours, but if less than 20 hours, no payment). They calculate how much you need to live on for a family of your size, look at your weekly wage, and pay the difference, so that you are getting a living wage. It might take ten/twelve weeks for them to sort out payment.

In addition, if you were working in the UK in 2011, this may confer an entitlement to Jobseekers Benefit in Ireland. You need one day of work to activate this entitlement, if you qualify - see above post.

There are also inexpensive creches for low income families, if you are working, but it is not easy to get a place in these - they tend to be full.

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:09 pm

Hi All,

The rules regarding welfare are complex.

For example, you could be here 5 years and told you were not habitually resident and refused payment.
You could arrive in Ireland today to join your Polish/UK/Irish husband, and be habitually resident straight away, because he has paid tax for the past few months/years.
You could arrive as a single parent to a young child, get a very modest minimum wage job for ten hours a week, earn 80 euro every week, and qualify immediately for lone parents, as this is a family benefit for migrant workers. Also child benefit, also subsidised housing, health care.... So long as you continued to work for a few hours a week, lone parents payment is ok as it is a migrant worker benefit, if you work.
A couple/person who get a job for 20 hours /week, and who have a child, can get Family Income Supplement. No habitual residence requirement, as this is a migrant worker family benefit.
Your dad/mum could get a job today, bring you aged 15 years and 11 months and 27 days to Ireland, and as you are under 16 years, you could apply for Disability Allowance the moment you are 16 on the basis of being the child of a migrant worker. You would pass the habitual residence as you were under age when coming to Ireland and dad is working, so the only bit left is proof that you have a disability and no means/money.
So, lots of loopholes.

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:14 pm

PS,

If you work less than 30 hours per week, and you earn less than the SWA rate, you can apply to be 'topped up' to the SWA rate. This is difficult to get, but some people seem to manage it.
The SWA rate is 186/week for a single person, and you can only be expected to pay 32/week for accommodation. So if you are left with less than 154/week after paying for accommodation, you can apply for SWA and rent supplement, from the Community Welfare Office. This will not be easy to get, but apply and if refused, appeal it.

lukejones · Post by **lukejones** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:46 am

Wow, Brigid! It's very complex!
What would you say about a person who is self-employed, transferring his business to Ireland, but the business is new and does not have a good enough income to live on? (He's from UK too).

lukejones · Post by **lukejones** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:49 am

I have to say, that I'm not too sure about what you have said about the habitual residence for UK citizens. Here is what the citizensinformation site says:

4. Consider whether the person has a right to reside in the State

If you do not have a legal right of residence in this State, you will not be regarded as habitually resident. The following groups of people have a right to reside in Ireland:
•Irish nationals
•UK and EU nationals from the Common Travel Area (CTA)
•EEA nationals who are employed or self-employed in Ireland

There are 2 grounds for saying I have habitual residency for Ireland:
1, I am from the CTA;
2, I will be registered as self-employed in Ireland at the time of claiming any benefit.

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:39 pm

Hi Luke,

I always advise people to apply for anything they think they might be entitled to. They need to be careful in their initial application form, so that what they write is not used later to deny access.

I would say that the person would be best off to get a job for six to twelve months, and run the business part time at the same time. If he worked for six months and then lost the job he would be likely to have entitlement to SWA for six months. Work for 12 months, and likely to be entitled to SWA for life - this is not definite.

Elderly Irish people, currently living in the Common Travel Area, are considered habitually resident in Ireland only if they return home with support from a charity called 'safe home'. This is enough to indicate that Irish people currently living in the CTA are not always considered habitually resident if they return to Ireland.

Being self employed will help you to access support, but it would be better if you could make a living from S/E for about a year before claiming - then you are claiming cos of a downturn in business, not cos you came to Ireland to claim.

lukejones · Post by **lukejones** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:37 pm

Here's an interesting question:

Can you operate your self employment business in NI (uk) (claiming working tax credit), and also satisfy the exercising of treaty rights, by living in ROI with your spouse?
Would this type of "cross border worker" satisfy the requirements for an EEA family permit?
Or is working in the "other member state" a necessity?

agniukas · Post by **agniukas** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:43 pm

If you reside in the the republic of ireland, you would satisfy the residence part. However, if you are employed in the northern ireland, you will fail the exercise of EU Treaty rights part, because you are not working in the Republic of Ireland.

lukejones · Post by **lukejones** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:59 pm

mmm,
But the "cross border worker" status can be had if you cross to work just some part of the week, I think.
So it could be possible to work half the week in NI, and the half the week in ROI.
What do you think about that?

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:40 pm

It would not be logical to attempt that.

You are better off to register as self employed in Ireland, and pay your tax in Ireland. As you have moved from the UK, this triggers migrant worker rights, which is what you want to do.

If the income is low there would be very little tax to pay anyway. You would need to declare a minimum income of 186 euro per week on average if you were single, or 186 plus 125 if you were married (plus another 30/week for each child).

If you declare less than this amount you are considered to have insufficient resources, so you lose out on your rights.

lukejones · Post by **lukejones** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:57 pm

I think if I tell you that "working tax credit" in the UK is an actual payment of money (not just a tax threshold like in ROI), you will see my logic.
If not, please explain why there is no logic in it. I usually have ideas with a lot of logic in them!

Graham Weifang · Post by **Graham Weifang** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:05 am

Well what fantastic information is contained in this thread.

Ireland is looking rather good at the moment.
I am from Liverpool, which every one knows is really Ireland

I will start a new thread, so not to clutter this one up too much.

Gra.

chelsearob77 · Post by **chelsearob77** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:31 am

Monifé wrote:These principles are based on the Surinder Singh case. In plain English, if you (the EU citizen), move to another EU country with your non-EU spouse other than that of which you are a national and exercise your treaty rights in that country for a period of time, you can return to your home country under the same rights that were afforded to you in the host EU country.

I think it is based on the fact that you become an economic migrant worker and you enjoy a certain set of rights when in the host country and therefore should be able to enjoy the same rights when you return home.

My understanding is that you would need to live and work in the host country for at least 6 months, a year would probably be better. I know that if you exercise treaty rights in another country, you can do so by studying (with sufficient resources and health insurance), being self-employed or by being financially self-sufficient, but in order to gain the benefits of the Surinder Singh ruling, you must be employed as a worker in the host country.

During your time in the host country, keep every document possible pertaining to your employment and your residence, and get both names on the tenancy agreement and utility bills etc.

The first step would be applying for an "Accompany family member" visa using the online visa facility. Make sure you include a signed letter of application, applicant's passport, marriage certificate and applicant's birth certificate. Once you are both in Ireland, you can start looking for a job. Your spouse will have an unconditional right to reside in Ireland with you for up to a period of 3 months. After that, you need to apply for a residence card using this application form. There is more information on this page in relation to the requirements and documents you need to apply.

i'm a British citizen currently living in Lima, Peru with my Peruvian wife & our two kids (who are both already registered as British)

our plain was to move to the UK (my home country) but due to the recent changes regarding the UK spouse visas financial requirement it has made things very difficult as the only way my wife would get granted a visa is if i returned to the UK alone & work for 6 months to be able to meet the financial requirement before my wife could apply for her visa & it to be granted!

so over the past few weeks I've been thinking about moving to Ireland to find work & somewhere to stay (i have family & friends that live in Dublin) then her to follow me a month or so later, then after I've worked in Ireland for over 6 months apply for her visa

so what steps would you recommend we take from what i gather her being Peruvian she would need a visa to enter Ireland but would she have to meet any financial requirement?

i want to know what our options are before i leave her & my kids here in Peru to come to Ireland as if there is anything that is going to prevent her from coming to Ireland i would prefer to know before i take the plunge by coming to Ireland alone first!

thanks

lukejones · Post by **lukejones** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:20 am

You must travel together with her.
You will be granted a 3 month travel visa for Europe. EU freedom of movement guarantees this, as long as you can prove you are married.
During the 3 months you must sort everything out, there, in Ireland.
If you go to Ireland first, and wait 6 months, it will be more difficult for you.

chelsearob77 · Post by **chelsearob77** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:22 pm

lukejones wrote:You must travel together with her.
You will be granted a 3 month travel visa for Europe. EU freedom of movement guarantees this, as long as you can prove you are married.
During the 3 months you must sort everything out, there, in Ireland.
If you go to Ireland first, and wait 6 months, it will be more difficult for you.

I was thinking that i go to Ireland first to get a place to stay & a job sorted, then my wife follow me about a month later not me wait 6 months for her to join me in Ireland, if that was the case then i would go to the UK & do that!

so if my wife was to apply for a 3 month visa then it will granted?

& will she need to provided evidence of any savings etc?

lukejones · Post by **lukejones** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:33 pm

According to what I've been told, yes, she can come within the first 3 months, with no financial requirements, under EU freedom of movement rights for family members of EU citizens.
I am just about to do this myself. So, I dont have successful experience in this. It's what I have been told. I too would like someone to come forward who has successfully done it, to build my confidence. If not, I will be trying it anyway.

chelsearob77 · Post by **chelsearob77** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:42 pm

lukejones wrote:According to what I've been told, yes, she can come within the first 3 months, with no financial requirements, under EU freedom of movement rights for family members of EU citizens.
I am just about to do this myself. So, I dont have successful experience in this. It's what I have been told. I too would like someone to come forward who has successfully done it, to build my confidence. If not, I will be trying it anyway.

OK thanks keep me posted how you get on, & if anyone has a successful experience of doing this then please do share it with us to help

Thanks

Graham Weifang · Post by **Graham Weifang** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:48 am

lukejones wrote:You must travel together with her.
You will be granted a 3 month travel visa for Europe. EU freedom of movement guarantees this, as long as you can prove you are married.
During the 3 months you must sort everything out, there, in Ireland.
If you go to Ireland first, and wait 6 months, it will be more difficult for you.

.
.
Hi Luke,
I guess your referring to ChelseaRob,
Wouldn't his Peruvian wife and children need a visa before setting off from Lima?
What would be the formalities when they landed as a family, together in say Dublin Airport?

Gra.

chelsearob77 · Post by **chelsearob77** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:51 am

chelsearob77 wrote:
lukejones wrote:According to what I've been told, yes, she can come within the first 3 months, with no financial requirements, under EU freedom of movement rights for family members of EU citizens.
I am just about to do this myself. So, I dont have successful experience in this. It's what I have been told. I too would like someone to come forward who has successfully done it, to build my confidence. If not, I will be trying it anyway.
OK thanks keep me posted how you get on, & if anyone has a successful experience of doing this then please do share it with us to help

Thanks

Well I have just received an email from the Irish embassy here in Lima, Peru (where I live) & they are saying my wife will need a visa to enter Ireland & will need to meet their requirement before they will even consider issuing her a visa!

& that Ireland is not part of the Scheghen group & the EU freedom of movement rights for family members of EU citizens will not work for trying to enter Ireland!

So it looks like this idea is quashed & it's back to the drawing-board for me & my wife

wiggsy · Post by **wiggsy** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:33 am

this is not true!!!

Your wife needs to travel with you! get her an EEA Family permit.. its not a visa you want...

take your marriage cert too!...

im looking at this for my wife (we are in the uk currently - but they expect her to leave - failed applications on Art 8 and spouse etc).

so now looking at going to ireland for this work... she can join me for three months even if i am not working.. irish embasy confirmed that to myself etc... after three months of entry, if im not working, shes considered an "illegal" and would be removed... although as myself, and children are british we have the right to remain in ireland (common travel area)

go onto DFA.ie and email them a question... - it depends on who answers your email, the first couple of responses i had were useless, but i had a nice lady email me a couple of messages which were useful etc.

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Can I (UK National)& wife (non EU National) live in Irel

Cross Border worker