Eu treaty rights for non-eea Girlfriend

[joost]

I'm looking for some information regarding my situation:

I'm a Dutch citizen living and working full time in Ireland since late 2010, since 2010 I'm also in a long distance relationship with my Mauritian girlfriend. During the past 2 1/2 half years she has visited Ireland twice on tourist visas, I was her visa sponsor both times and I have visited Mauritius on 4 different occasions. We are looking at applying for a EU1 treaty rights visa for her within a few months.

I'm confident that we can supply all needing information listed on the Inis.gov website but a big red flag for me is that we never have never officially lived together. (at the moment she is still living in Mauritius and will enter Ireland through a "D join partner visa") Can she due to this red flag still apply on EU1 treaty rights?

If we can satisfy all other requirements and state that upon her arrival in Ireland we will move in together?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

From what you posted, you may struggle to demonstrate that you are in a durable relationship.

It is worth studying this document (page 4 in particular).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:NL:PDF

[joost]

From what you posted, you may struggle to demonstrate that you are in a durable relationship.

It is worth studying this document (page 4 in particular).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:NL:PDF

Hi Eusmile,

I'll be checking out this document. What might help my case is that for both her tourist visas, i was her visa sponsor. On her first tourist visa she was initially refused due to providing enough proof of a relationship, we have successfully appealed that decision back in early 2011.

Would successfully fighting this tourist visa refusal from the inis.gov office two years ago, "we we proofed our relationship", help us in any way now?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Would successfully fighting this tourist visa refusal from the inis.gov office two years ago, "we we proofed our relationship", help us in any way now?

I would have hoped that it will help, but remember, demonstrating that one is a durable relationship is more difficult than for those that are married.

You would need to work on how to demonstrate that you are in a relationship akin to marriage.

[jeupsy]

The fact that you never lived together will definitely make the case harder.

One thing that will be very important is to show that you have met face to face on a regular basis (they definitely don't accept long distances relationships where people have never met). If you have some kind of evidence than she stayed at your house when she came to Ireland and your stayed at hers when you went to Mauritius, it would definitely be a good point to have.

And since you have not any proof of living together, your only chance to prove a genuine relationship will unfortunately involve giving some private information to them.

Here are some suggestions of things to provide:
- Letters from friends and family to testify of the relationship (preferably from people who have met the both of you together)
- Pictures of both of you together at different places and different times (and if you have pictures of you with her family and her with your family it is also good)
- If you were talking on the phone, you phone bills which show you have been calling her number on a regular basis (or the other way around)
- When we visited each other, anything which prove that you went to the same place at the same time (passport stamps/visas, plan/train/bus tickets, receipts for concerts or any activity which have your names on it)
- If you gave each other present and can provide the receipts and show that they were purchased just before going to each other's country it is also useful
- Same thing if you still have cards sent to each other, ideally with the envelopes and stamps showing when they were sent
- Also you can provide an printout of all the emails you have exchanged (you can remove what is too private and you don't want to share, but still leave enough so that the whole thing makes sense and it makes it obvious that you are a couple)

[joost]

The fact that you never lived together will definitely make the case harder.

One thing that will be very important is to show that you have met face to face on a regular basis (they definitely don't accept long distances relationships where people have never met). If you have some kind of evidence than she stayed at your house when she came to Ireland and your stayed at hers when you went to Mauritius, it would definitely be a good point to have.

And since you have not any proof of living together, your only chance to prove a genuine relationship will unfortunately involve giving some private information to them.

Here are some suggestions of things to provide:
- Letters from friends and family to testify of the relationship (preferably from people who have met the both of you together)
- Pictures of both of you together at different places and different times (and if you have pictures of you with her family and her with your family it is also good)
- If you were talking on the phone, you phone bills which show you have been calling her number on a regular basis (or the other way around)
- When we visited each other, anything which prove that you went to the same place at the same time (passport stamps/visas, plan/train/bus tickets, receipts for concerts or any activity which have your names on it)
- If you gave each other present and can provide the receipts and show that they were purchased just before going to each other's country it is also useful
- Same thing if you still have cards sent to each other, ideally with the envelopes and stamps showing when they were sent
- Also you can provide an printout of all the emails you have exchanged (you can remove what is too private and you don't want to share, but still leave enough so that the whole thing makes sense and it makes it obvious that you are a couple)

HI Jeupsy thank you for your feedback in this post and my other post.

You mentioned the EUTR applicant entry visa in my other post. Could you provide me some more info regarding that visa or point me in the correction? I looked on the inis.gov site and couldn't find a lot of information about it. I did check the link from EUsmile higher in this post and they mention but "inreisvisa" = entry visa, but this more general info and not specific to Ireland.

Many thanks,

Joost

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

To bring the posts together...


jeupsy wrote:

The tourist visa might work as well ... But just in case you didn't know she can also apply for an EUTR applicant visa (which would be the more "normal" visa to apply for in her situation).

The visa processing should be faster, free of charge, and they are not supposed to ask for bank statements, proofs of insurance or that kind of things.
However they will expect a proof that you are working or studying in Ireland, a copy of you passport, and detailed documentation of you relationship going back at least 2 years (which you will also need to apply for the residence card anyway).

Also the EUTR applicant visa will be multi entry for 3 or 6 months, so probably more convenient if you guys want to travel once she is in Ireland.

[jeupsy]

Have a look here under "Partner - Qualifying Family Members who wish to JOIN EU Citizen in Ireland".

When she does the online visa application under the reason for travel she should pick "Join partner (EEA national)".

If she does that instead of a tourist they will treat her as someone who is coming to Ireland in order to apply for an EUTR residence card. This means that if they are not convinced the relationship is genuine they will refuse the visa, so you need to make sure it is well documented. But otherwise it is better than the tourist visa as they will give a longer one which will definitely give you enough time to make the EUTR application when she comes to Ireland, and she will not have to be stressed about giving the real answer if the border control officer asks why she is coming to Ireland. And this is just me but I think that once they have approved the visa as an EUTR applicant then they are unlikely to make a u-turn and refuse the residence card when you apply for it.

Hope this helps (let me know if any question, my girlfriend did the last year so I have a fairly good idea of how the application process works)

[joost]

Have a look here under "Partner - Qualifying Family Members who wish to JOIN EU Citizen in Ireland".

When she does the online visa application under the reason for travel she should pick "Join partner (EEA national)".

If she does that instead of a tourist they will treat her as someone who is coming to Ireland in order to apply for an EUTR residence card. This means that if they are not convinced the relationship is genuine they will refuse the visa, so you need to make sure it is well documented. But otherwise it is better than the tourist visa as they will give a longer one which will definitely give you enough time to make the EUTR application when she comes to Ireland, and she will not have to be stressed about giving the real answer if the border control officer asks why she is coming to Ireland. And this is just me but I think that once they have approved the visa as an EUTR applicant then they are unlikely to make a u-turn and refuse the residence card when you apply for it.

Hope this helps (let me know if any question, my girlfriend did the last year so I have a fairly good idea of how the application process works)

Thats great information, thank you. I also agree with your opinion if they approve the entry visa i wouldn't see why they would U-turn for a residence card.

How long did the it take you to get the entry visa for your GF? and is there a fee involved in to apply for the entry visa?

Thanks again.

[jeupsy]

No worries, I know that before you actually go through the process it is difficult to find out how it works

In theory a visa under Treaty Rights should be processed within two weeks and free of charge.

In practise in our case they asked us to pay 60 euros and it took 2 months. The reason is that the guy from the embassy who took the application didn't know the process and treated the application as a normal request to join a partner (not an EUTR one). So he made us pay, asked for bank statements which he wasn't supposed to, and sent the application to Dublin for review which always takes 6 to 8 weeks.

I am sure he was wrong as I know someone who used to work at the visa section of an Irish embassy who confirmed to me that for EUTR visas they should't charge anything and in order to expedite the process they are supposed to make a decision at the embassy within 2 weeks instead of forwarding the application to Dublin.

But at the time, after I told the guy and saw that he didn't seem to know the rules; we thought there was no point in trying to fight the embassy as it would bring more hassle; and we just gave them what they asked for.

Hopefully yours will be processed by someone who knows what they are doing

[joost]

If she gets the eutreaty entry visa, can she then get a PPS number straight away or can she only get a PPS number after she gets the temp 4eufam stamp?

Also is a PPS number required to co-sign a new rental agreement with me?

Thanks!

[joeyjoejoe]

Hi jepsy,

First of all thanks for your info, I'm in the situation of trying to get my non EEA girlfriend over. I also thought it made more sense for us to apply for a long stay 'join partner' visa. Now it got refused so I'm about to make the appeal, I realise now I did not supply enough documentation. Whats confusing me though is the following problem. 'Applicant does not qualify for join partner visa'. I looked more closely at the INIS site and its definition of 'partner' is a same sex partnership. But since you did not have this problem then I'm tieing myself up in even more knots. Thanks for any help, much appreciated.

Have a look here under "Partner - Qualifying Family Members who wish to JOIN EU Citizen in Ireland".

When she does the online visa application under the reason for travel she should pick "Join partner (EEA national)".

If she does that instead of a tourist they will treat her as someone who is coming to Ireland in order to apply for an EUTR residence card. This means that if they are not convinced the relationship is genuine they will refuse the visa, so you need to make sure it is well documented. But otherwise it is better than the tourist visa as they will give a longer one which will definitely give you enough time to make the EUTR application when she comes to Ireland, and she will not have to be stressed about giving the real answer if the border control officer asks why she is coming to Ireland. And this is just me but I think that once they have approved the visa as an EUTR applicant then they are unlikely to make a u-turn and refuse the residence card when you apply for it.

Hope this helps (let me know if any question, my girlfriend did the last year so I have a fairly good idea of how the application process works)

[jeupsy]

If she gets the eutreaty entry visa, can she then get a PPS number straight away or can she only get a PPS number after she gets the temp 4eufam stamp?

Also is a PPS number required to co-sign a new rental agreement with me?

Thanks!

Estate agents have always asked for PPS numbers when I rented apartments ... But not sure whether it is a legal requirement or something they just decided to do.

And I did that a long time ago, but I think at the time the only thing required to get a PPS number was a proof of address. I think when she arrives in Ireland she moves into your current apartment, they will be happy with a letter from you stating that she is staying at your place, and a proof they you are yourself living there place.

This is just my guess as my girlfriend already had a PPS number from living in Ireland a few years ago, so you can double check with people who have first hand experience.

[jeupsy]

Hi jepsy,

First of all thanks for your info, I'm in the situation of trying to get my non EEA girlfriend over. I also thought it made more sense for us to apply for a long stay 'join partner' visa. Now it got refused so I'm about to make the appeal, I realise now I did not supply enough documentation. Whats confusing me though is the following problem. 'Applicant does not qualify for join partner visa'. I looked more closely at the INIS site and its definition of 'partner' is a same gender partnership. But since you did not have this problem then I'm tieing myself up in even more knots. Thanks for any help, much appreciated.

In some cases partner means same sex partner who entered a civil partnership with you in a country where it is considered to be the same thing as marriage (so basically it is to treat gay couples in a civil partnership equally with married couples).

However in this case and as long as you are an EU citizen but not Irish, EU directive 2004/38 applies to you and clearly includes unmarried partner of opposite sexes who have been in a lasting relationship (and the transposition of the directive into Irish law defines "lasting" as at least 2 years). I think they probably refused the visa for another reason than this, or if they did expect you to be a same sex couple it was a mistake.

Difficult to say without more details, but if you want to be a bit more specific about your situation, we can try to guess why it was refused.

[joeyjoejoe]

Hi jepsy,

First of all thanks for your info, I'm in the situation of trying to get my non EEA girlfriend over. I also thought it made more sense for us to apply for a long stay 'join partner' visa. Now it got refused so I'm about to make the appeal, I realise now I did not supply enough documentation. Whats confusing me though is the following problem. 'Applicant does not qualify for join partner visa'. I looked more closely at the INIS site and its definition of 'partner' is a same gender partnership. But since you did not have this problem then I'm tieing myself up in even more knots. Thanks for any help, much appreciated.

In some cases partner means same gender partner who entered a civil partnership with you in a country where it is considered to be the same thing as marriage (so basically it is to treat gay couples in a civil partnership equally with married couples).

However in this case and as long as you are an EU citizen but not Irish, EU directive 2004/38 applies to you and clearly includes unmarried partner of opposite sexes who have been in a lasting relationship (and the transposition of the directive into Irish law defines "lasting" as at least 2 years). I think they probably refused the visa for another reason than this, or if they did expect you to be a same gender couple it was a mistake.

Difficult to say without more details, but if you want to be a bit more specific about your situation, we can try to guess why it was refused.

Here are the two reasons
ID: Applicant does not meet qualifying criteria for Join Partner Visa
RH: Relationship History - Have not shown evidence of a relationship being in existence prior to visa application/marriage

I am an Irish citizen by the way. I can address the 2nd reason and hopefully the first is closely related, but if its a case that partner means same sex then I could have a problem. Do you mind me asking if you are Irish, thanks for your reply.

[jeupsy]

Ok, if you are Irish things are a little different as the application will be treated under Irish law and not EU law (unless your girlfriend has previously held a residence card from another EU country based on your relationship, but I take it is not the case?)

I am not as familiar with visa options for unmarried partners of Irish nationals, but it looks like there is a similar option to the EU one: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Jo ... _Residence

I think it looks like the only thing is that they were not satisfied with your refashion ship history. You have probably seen it already, but I had posted here a list of documents your can provide to help with that (and of course in addition to these, if you ever lived together and can prove it, or if you have a join bank account, those are the strongest arguments you can make).

Hope this helps. If you want to know more about these visas, I suggest to start a separate topic as this one is about EU Treaty rights and might not get the attention of people who know more about Irish law.

And I am both Irish and French, but at the time of our application I was only French - so the application was processed under EU law.

[joeyjoejoe]

Thanks jeupsy,

I took note of the information you provided in your application so this should help a lot, I agree the overall concern INIS must have is related to the existance of a genuine relationship. I've spoken to a few friends and none are of the impression 'Partner' in Ireland means exclusively same sex couples. I'm putting a huge effort into the appeal so fingers crossed, thanks again.

[jeupsy]

No pb. All the best to you guys, hope it works out

[joost]

No worries, I know that before you actually go through the process it is difficult to find out how it works

In theory a visa under Treaty Rights should be processed within two weeks and free of charge.

In practise in our case they asked us to pay 60 euros and it took 2 months. The reason is that the guy from the embassy who took the application didn't know the process and treated the application as a normal request to join a partner (not an EUTR one). So he made us pay, asked for bank statements which he wasn't supposed to, and sent the application to Dublin for review which always takes 6 to 8 weeks.

I am sure he was wrong as I know someone who used to work at the visa section of an Irish embassy who confirmed to me that for EUTR visas they should't charge anything and in order to expedite the process they are supposed to make a decision at the embassy within 2 weeks instead of forwarding the application to Dublin.

But at the time, after I told the guy and saw that he didn't seem to know the rules; we thought there was no point in trying to fight the embassy as it would bring more hassle; and we just gave them what they asked for.

Hopefully yours will be processed by someone who knows what they are doing

We have applied for a entry visa and stating in the application that we intend to apple for a residence card under eutreaty. I lodged her application in person at the inis office in Dublin. This has been 6 weeks ago and I haven't heard anything.

Is there anything i can do to get them to speed it up? I send an email to visamail@justice.ie but haven't received an answer.

Thanks,

Joost

[miamiheat]

Hello,

I am reading all your posts with great interest. Will probably need to read a few more times to absorb all the useful info.

I am appealing to the opinion of the ones who did go / or are going through the process of having their "exotic" (I mean that in good humour) girlfriend/boyfriend immigrate to Ireland to live with them.

More particularly I am French living and working in Dublin. I met a Thai woman last year on a holiday. Since then we have travelled together to Dubai (2 weeks in October). That was her first visa ever on a brand new passport. Then we got her a tourist visa to come to Ireland. She came and stayed with me for 2 months and has now returned to Thailand. We are in constant communication by Skype and I have loads of evidence (pictures especially) of the different times we spent together. When we applied for her tourist visa it took a lot of time to prepare and then it took 8 weeks to be approved: I had to send in the equivalent of 300-350 pages worth of phones records and Skype, plus bank statements and loads of pictures.

At this stage it is clear to us that we want to live together and I would like to make sure we do things right from the beginning. The goal being that she will live with me. I have the means to support the two of us but it is clear she will want to work at some stage.

My first concerns when I read immigration website or forums:

1. Her country of origin: Thailand.
2. The fact that a soon to be 1 year old relationship may no give us much ground to work on in the eyes of immigration office.
3. I do not want to get the "wrong visa" next, that is the one that makes more permanent solutions more difficult in the long run.

I appeal to your experience and I am very eager to hear any advice you may give me.

Thank you for reading.

[jeupsy]

We have applied for a entry visa and stating in the application that we intend to apple for a residence card under eutreaty. I lodged her application in person at the inis office in Dublin. This has been 6 weeks ago and I haven't heard anything.

Is there anything i can do to get them to speed it up? I send an email to visamail@justice.ie but haven't received an answer.

Thanks,

Joost

Sorry joost, I though visa applications could only be made in the country where the person resides and not in Ireland. So I am not sure how things work here. But certainly if you are still waiting for a visa after over a month, you can try to get help from solvit to escalate the matter, as it is starting to be a bit too long,

[jeupsy]

Hello,

I am reading all your posts with great interest. Will probably need to read a few more times to absorb all the useful info.

I am appealing to the opinion of the ones who did go / or are going through the process of having their "exotic" (I mean that in good humour) girlfriend/boyfriend immigrate to Ireland to live with them.

More particularly I am French living and working in Dublin. I met a Thai woman last year on a holiday. Since then we have travelled together to Dubai (2 weeks in October). That was her first visa ever on a brand new passport. Then we got her a tourist visa to come to Ireland. She came and stayed with me for 2 months and has now returned to Thailand. We are in constant communication by Skype and I have loads of evidence (pictures especially) of the different times we spent together. When we applied for her tourist visa it took a lot of time to prepare and then it took 8 weeks to be approved: I had to send in the equivalent of 300-350 pages worth of phones records and Skype, plus bank statements and loads of pictures.

At this stage it is clear to us that we want to live together and I would like to make sure we do things right from the beginning. The goal being that she will live with me. I have the means to support the two of us but it is clear she will want to work at some stage.

My first concerns when I read immigration website or forums:

1. Her country of origin: Thailand.
2. The fact that a soon to be 1 year old relationship may no give us much ground to work on in the eyes of immigration office.
3. I do not want to get the "wrong visa" next, that is the one that makes more permanent solutions more difficult in the long run.

I appeal to your experience and I am very eager to hear any advice you may give me.

Thank you for reading.

I am another French with a girlfriend from Asia

Unfortunately, there is no immigration path for her based on your relationship until you can prove the relationship has been lasting for at least two years. After 2 years, she will be entitled for an EU Treaty Rights application.

Here are the options which I think available to you guys:
1) If you are ready to get married, she will be able to apply under EU Treaty Rights and it will be easy and fairly quick (with very little chances of getting refused) - but obviously this is a big personal decision on top of moving in together
2) If you are ready to wait another year, what you can do is to make sure that you keep documenting your relationship very well. If you have a lot of pictures, emails, proofs of Skype calls, proofs of traveling together and living in the same apartment for some time, letter from friends and families, cards sent to each other, etc ... then she should be able to get a visa under EU Treaty Rights after you 2 years anniversary (not as automatic as if you were married, but still with high chance of success if you have all the documentation).
3) If you neither want to get married not to wait; the best bet would be for her to try to find a one year course she wants to do in Ireland and come on a student visa. This will give her the right to work part-time while she is a student - and as soon as you reach the 2 years you can apply for a residence card under EU Treaty Rights for her to be allowed to work full time.
Hope this helps!

[joost]

We have applied for a entry visa and stating in the application that we intend to apple for a residence card under eutreaty. I lodged her application in person at the inis office in Dublin. This has been 6 weeks ago and I haven't heard anything.

Is there anything i can do to get them to speed it up? I send an email to visamail@justice.ie but haven't received an answer.

Thanks,

Joost

Sorry joost, I though visa applications could only be made in the country where the person resides and not in Ireland. So I am not sure how things work here. But certainly if you are still waiting for a visa after over a month, you can try to get help from solvit to escalate the matter, as it is starting to be a bit too long,

I received an reply from INIS saying:

I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your correspondence of 15/05/2013. The visa application referred to in your communication in respect of your partner, Ms xxx xxx, with Visa
Transaction: xxxxxxx is currently under examination by the appropriate Visa Officer. Your communication has been referred to the Visa Officer.

Which is as vague as it can be

The reason we had to logde the application in dublin was because there isn't an embassy in the country where she is currently living.

I'll give it a few more days and then ill contact solvit.

Thanks,

Joost

[joost]

i actually received the following refusal to the application today

ID:- Application does not meet the qualifying criteria for partner visa

I handed all information i could think off in during the orginal application but I reckon the application was denied due to not living together.

I contacted a sollictor earlier to discuss my options but I was wondering what will happen if:
- I marry my gf, will they consider this a marriage of "convenience"? We had plans to marry before but more further down the line (2015). If we go ahead with marrying does this make the process easier and can this be used as an appeal?

[jeupsy]

Sorry to hear about your refusal :-/

You are right and I would strongly suggest to see a solicitor with experience in these things to review what your options are.

Their reason for refusal is a bit difficult to decipher as they don't say why she doesn't meet the requirements, but at least it looks like they were happy with the proofs of relationship you provide (otherwise the would also have the refusal code "RH - Relationship history"); so you are probably right it has to do with never having lived together.

I am pretty sure that if you get married they will have to grant her a visa (because then the 2 years relationship condition won't apply anymore); but I am not sure whether you should bring it forward in an appeal or a new application. I think the marriage of convenience route would ne a bit difficult for them as you could appeal to European institutions and you would be likely to win and make Ireland look bad (but again, better double check with a professional).

Let me know if you want the reference of the solicitor who helped my girlfriend and I with her visa application.

All the best to get things sorted.