So confused, ahhhhhhhh!!

[frei]

I am not saying requesting for a onerous documents to make an entry visa application is right, what am saying is this; Member States can request for evidence to be sure that the contracted marriage is genuine indeed they would not be breaking any rules, they are within there remit to make this request.

A close friend of mine, September last year was refused an entry visa to Ireland for this reason, he made a complaint to the European commission who replied and says member states are allowed to refuse a visa if they have sufficient ground to believe the marriage might be of convenience, they only asked him to reapply with sufficient documents.

It is opened to OP or St pauli to make the application without one though.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I am not saying requesting for a onerous documents to make an entry visa application is right, what am saying is this; Member States can request for evidence to be sure that the contracted marriage is genuine indeed they would not be breaking any rules, they are within there remit to make this request.

A close friend of mine, September last year was refused an entry visa to Ireland for this reason, he made a complaint to the European commission who replied and says member states are allowed to refuse a visa if they have sufficient ground to believe the marriage might be of convenience, they only asked him to reapply with sufficient documents.

It is opened to OP or St pauli to make the application without one though.

Regarding the underlined part, the important words are where they have sufficient grounds - they cannot presume in advance. Metock judgement was pretty clear on what documents can be requested.

[frei]

Do you know how the process of visa issuance has significantly changed due to the Metock Arrest? I have read on this forum, and different fora non eu family member of Romanian spouses refused an EEA family permit in Romania despite holding a Romanian document equivalent to the UK spouse visa on the basis of marriage of convenience.

It is very simple and rather easy thing to do, quote or know a case law which is merely theoretical is some cases, the thing is the practical implementation of these laws are rigorous at the visa offices, most of them know it and just seemingly ignore it's existence. Why risk a refusal on the basis of a case law that most visa post would not take seriously until being challenged in an appeal notice or a national court?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

The Metock case http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 27:EN:HTML dramatically changed amongst other matters visa issuing policy EU-wide.

[frei]

I know about the Metock arrest and surely you'd expect it to be available
on the EU website (eurlex). you only have to ask why different member
states have formulated different policies on EU visa issuance at their
posts? it's simple because of different implementation in national
legislation although directive on which the legislation are being drawn
up is from the same EU directive, same goes for the CJEU cases where implentions
have been so different. some are passed restrictively albeit the court
had said differently, it is not worth the time as case workers continue
to refuse applications on the assumption of a marriage being of
convenience even after the Metock rulling. as I have said it is opened
to st pauli to apply and stating thus: I am applying for a visa pursuant
to....... that evidence of history of relationship should not be
submitted. A quick email to the embassy surely will end all these
speculation

[st pauli]

I understand the point you're making Frei. The issue is that for some people, if these documents aren't requested on the INIS site or the application form/summary, then they might feel that offering them 'unsolicited' invokes suspicion in itself!

For me personally I think I will email INIS prior to making the application and ask if there's any need to submit them as it's confusing from the site whether they are required for spouses or just partners. That should test the water with a nice innocuous excuse for doing so.

[frei]

Good idea, better now than later, you could kindly as well brief us when you have a reply. Good luck

[ltb86]

Well as i said before i did email the Irish embassy Hanoi but have yet to receive a reply! I will have to chase that up this week. Here is what i wrote to them:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing this email to politely request information from you prior to submitting my spouses visa application. I am a British citizen married to a Vietnamese national, we have a 1 year old child together. We intend to apply for a visa to come to Ireland under the following EU directive:

DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC "OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States amending Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 and repealing Directives 64/221/EEC, 68/360/EEC, 72/194/EEC, 73/148/EEC, 75/34/EEC, 75/35/EEC, 90/364/EEC, 90/365/EEC and 93/96/EEC"

I have a few questions regarding the application.

Firstly, i understand we need to submit a visa application online, can you confirm under which category should my husband apply for, C (short stay) or D (long stay)?

Furthermore, exactly what documentation do you need from us in support of the application? I know we will need to present our marriage certificate, this is in Vietnamese, will this need to be translated into English and if so where can we get this translated so that it will be 'officially recognised' by the Irish embassy? Also, must the documents be submitted in person or can we arrange for a courier to deliver these, as we do not live in Hanoi.

Thirdly, please can you let me know how long on average it will take to process the visa application? And if once the visa is granted, how long do we have before we will need to enter Ireland? Is there a validity time between the time the visa is issued and entry?

Thank you very much for your time. I will look forward to your reply.
Best Regards,

I hope that sounds ok. I was kind of under the impression that getting the visa wouldn't be too much of a problem as legally they were required to, even with just a marriage cert and passports. Maybe a little naive but it was just from reading other posts i thought that. Well if they do ask for relationship history, i've got my flight bookings and previous visa photocopies from my passport from previous visits, we've got tons of photos together including me with all his family/friends. I've got my phone records from last year when i was using Lebara mobile (about 8 months or more worth of calls to him) but since the last visit to him we've just been using skype as its free but there is no record history which a complete pain but i have been taking random screen shots from skype which i could get printed but i believe the pictures may be quite small and not great quality so this isn't great evidence. And since the last visit i have got a contract phone so i can print out my phone bill which shows my texts to him (but i don't call from this as its so expensive) i now use diawise on the landline for calling but this requires me to enter an 0871 number prior to dialling so his number doesnt show up on the call log, maybe i should start using lebara again. And i've got our daughters birth cert with his name on. Do you think this is enough? Oh and also my mother came with me on my last trip so i can show her visa page/flight ticket and photos of all of us. Unfortunately we can't apply just yet though as im back in UK now i will be going back later in the year and we will apply then. ALso, if i forward my email above to INIS, will what they say over rule the irish embassy hanoi? As if they say we don't need relationship evidence will the irish embassy have to accept that? Another common thing i've seen though from reading other posts is that they request to see confirmation of flight bookings! But who in their right mind is going to book flights without the visa first! I bet they are just trying to be awkward here!

[st pauli]

I've seen a couple of people here who applied for these visas when not living with their spouse and they weren't asked for any proof of relationship history (or at least didn't mention it and the timescale would indicate they weren't) and got their visas three or four weeks later.

These were ''join spouse'' not ''accompany spouse'' though. I would guess accompany spouse is slightly more open to abuse, as you haven't given them a fixed address in Ireland they can come and spot check that you're living as a couple. You could just go back to the UK while your 'spouse' sets about her new life in Ireland. But this is just my speculation, they may or may not even see it that way.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

[ltb86]

I FINALLY had a reply from the Irish embassy Hanoi regarding our proposed application!! However!! They are telling me outrightly my husband needs to apply under category D!!!! Now i'm confused all over again. Also i didn't realise they would need to send the application actually to Ireland and thus it can take up to 3 months to process, is this correct? Also, regarding the required documents in the latter part of their email, it states we will need "Birth Certificate (long form) for children under 21 years, parental consent, national Identity card (signed if required)." Does this read that every application needs to submit a birth cert or just for children under 21? It's just i don't think my husband has his birth cert, he just has his N.I.D

Thanks for any feedback

Here is their reply:


Thank you for your inquiry. Please find the answers below for your questions:

1/ Q: Firstly, i understand we need to submit a visa application online, can you confirm under which category should my husband apply for, C (short stay) or D (long stay)?

A: If your husband intends to reside in Ireland, he should apply for D visa (long stay).

2/ Q: Furthermore, exactly what documentation do you need from us in support of the application? I know we will need to present our marriage certificate, this is in Vietnamese, will this need to be translated into English and if so where can we get this translated so that it will be 'officially recognised' by the Irish embassy? Also, must the documents be submitted in person or can we arrange for a courier to deliver these, as we do not live in Hanoi.

A: - Please see the below instructions or please go to www.inis.gov.ie<http://www.inis.gov.ie> for more information. Please note that the Visa Officers may require more documents if they have any queries.
- All documents in Vietnamese must be attached with an Notarized English translation, you can have the documents translated by a Vietnamese Notary Public.
- The visa application can be sent to the Embassy in Hanoi by courier.

3/ Q: Thirdly, please can you let me know how long on average it will take to process the visa application? And if once the visa is granted, how long do we have before we will need to enter Ireland? Is there a validity time between the time the visa is issued and entry?

A: All join family visa applications must be sent to the Visa Office of the Dept. of Justice in Ireland from the Embassy, and the processing time is around 3 months. Once the visa is granted, it takes the Embassy in Hanoi one or two days to issue the visa.

Should you have any queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.



Best regards,



Dang Thanh Huong
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spouse/Child - Qualifying Family Members who wish to JOIN EU Citizen in Ireland

If you are the non EEA spouse or the child (under 21 years) of an EU Citizen or the child of the non EEA spouse and wish to JOIN the EU Citizen who is already in Ireland you should fully complete the online application form, and submit your signed summary application form, and photographs
In addition the following documents are required:

*
Your passport
*
Copy of the bio page of your spouse’s passport
*
Marriage Certificate – evidence (apostilled document) that marriage has been registered in applicant’s country of origin/residence
*
Birth Certificate (long form) for children under 21 years, parental consent where appropriate, national Identity card (signed if required)
*
Evidence that the EU Citizen spouse is lawfully in Ireland


Spouse/Child/Partner- Qualifying Family Members who wish to ACCOMPANY EU Citizen to Ireland – Reside

If you are the non EEA spouse
or
child (under 21 years),
or
the child of the non EEA spouse,
or
the non-EEA partner of an EU Citizen, in a long-term relationship that has existed for at least 2 years,
or
a civil partner who has contracted a registered partnership, or is a party to a class of legal relationship specified in the Civil Partnership (Recognition of Registered Foreign Relationships) Order 2010 as entitled to be recognized as a civil partnership,
and
you wish to ACCOMPANY the EU Citizen to Ireland the following documents are required:

*
Fully complete the online application form, and submit your signed summary application form, and photographs.
*
In addition to the signed summary application form, please also submit a signed letter of application

* Passport
* In the case of a married couple, Marriage Certificate – evidence (apostilled document) that marriage has been registered in applicant’s country of origin/residence
* In the case of civil partners, documentary evidence that will attest to the existence and durability of the relationship

1. In the case of a registered or recognised civil partnership please submit Registration Certificate of partnership.
2. In the case of unregistered partners please submit evidence of common ownership of property, joint tenancy of property, on-going correspondence addressed to both partners at the same address, financial dependence/interdependence, joint bank accounts or any other relevant documentation

* Birth Certificate (long form) for children under 21 years, parental consent, national Identity card (signed if required).

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Delays of over three weeks are considered to be unreasonable.

Do you need a source? I would suggest you get on with applying. The sooner you apply, the sooner you will have the visa.

[Brigid from Ireland]

Have you been sent the documentation required for a spouse who wishes to join a husband/wife who is already living in Ireland? This may be different to the documentation required for travelling with your spouse?

If you can get a British/EU passport for the child, it is best that you do so. This clears up any possible issues for the child, as it is proof that the child is an EU citizen.

You may also want to contact the British authorities to ask what is required for the parent of your British citizen child to travel to Britain/Northern Ireland with the child - this may be an easier route, as the non-EU parent would be helping his British child exercise their right to live in Britain/Northern Ireland.

[ltb86]

Hiya

So do we apply under category C that we have been advised here or what they say category D?

Brigid, they have given advice on both situations in their reply email, for a family member wishing to accompany spouse, they say we need the following: Fully complete the online application form, and submit your signed summary application form, and photographs.
*
In addition to the signed summary application form, please also submit a signed letter of application

* Passport
* In the case of a married couple, Marriage Certificate – evidence (apostilled document) that marriage has been registered in applicant’s country of origin/residence
* In the case of civil partners, documentary evidence that will attest to the existence and durability of the relationship

1. In the case of a registered or recognised civil partnership please submit Registration Certificate of partnership.
2. In the case of unregistered partners please submit evidence of common ownership of property, joint tenancy of property, on-going correspondence addressed to both partners at the same address, financial dependence/interdependence, joint bank accounts or any other relevant documentation

* Birth Certificate (long form) for children under 21 years, parental consent, national Identity card (signed if required).

Brigid, can you also please elaborate on what you mean by 'travel with the child, this may be an easier route?' our child already has British passport she was born in UK.

We just need to save a bit more money and then we can apply

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You definitely should apply in category C. Short term quick and easy visa is all that can be required. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2012/11 ... residence/ has some of the details.

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... u-citizen/ is the visa requirements

If they insist let us know.