American & Canadian, but also UK?

[Doc Nuance]

Maternal Grandmother- Born in Scotland 1899
Maternal Grandfather- Born in England 1891
Mother- born in Ontario, Canada 1919- then moves back to Scotland with parents and lives there for undetermined amount of time (perhaps 5 years or so, possibly becoming naturalized citizen as well, so she is possibly not only UK citizen "by descent"?). Do I need to know, from the UK, the status of my mother's citizenship and how it is derived (or if it even matters)...purely from descent or also from naturalization. Where do I find this out, and does it make a difference?
Me- Born in USA 1958

I know there are "double descent" clauses that work either for, or against potential UK citizenship applicants, so I am looking for something more definitive. Was Canada, in 1919, part of the UK? If so, am I in fact a first generation Brit born on foreign soil?

Premise- First, I am American by birth, but also a Canadian citizen because of first generation born on foreign soil from mother (who was born in Canada). Have already applied to Canada for mother's birth certificate, then will apply for citizenship- 5-7 month wait period. I'm pretty confident I am a Canadian too.

However, for potential UK citizenship, I have some good questions-

I think I need to find out the status of mother's UK citizenship derivation. OR...
Whether her Canadian birth was a part of UK in 1919, making the prior question moot.
Whether my maternal grandparents citizenship have any bearing on this.
What type of citizenship I would perhaps be eligible for (I know about ancestry visas), given that there are a million flavors of UK visas, passports, rights to abode, nationality, citizenship, etc...
The UK websites are incredibly vague on most of these questions...there are also paid services who will sort it out, I guess, but I've heard they are mostly scams and are not very thorough.
I'm hoping to find a source who has been through, or knows of this process, to provide some answers or the best resource to find them.

Thanks- Doc Nuance

[JAJ]

In 1919, Canada was a Dominion - not part of the United Kingdom. However, before the late 1940s, there was a common British nationality across all the Dominions.

Your mother was a British subject by birth. She could not have been naturalized in the United Kingdom in the 1920s because she was already British. On Jan 1, 1949, the status of British subject was replaced by Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies.

You can download the British Nationality Act 1948 (as originally enacted) from http://www.legislation.gov.uk - you can also look at the current version of the British Nationality Act 1981 and the provision for those in your situation is section 4C. Have a look at the requirements but it's probably unlikely that you qualify.

Your best hope appears to be getting an Ancestry Visa in your Canadian passport, once you have it. You can use this to move to the United Kingdom and then become naturalised British in due course, if that's what you want.

[rod_p]

Once you've sorted your Canadian passport, a UK Ancestry visa is dead easy - I've done it twice ( now a UK citizen - that's the hard part ).

The first time I was nervous and the UK High Commission in Ottawa just told me "if you can prove your Grandparent was born in the UK and the lineage, you have the right from birth to live and work in the UK - plain and simple". The visa took 4 days.

The second time, at the UK consulate in Dusseldorf, I provided the documentation, paid the fee, and then came back for the visa in 1/2 an hour.

As for claiming through your mother - don't waste your time.

Just line up the documentation in the meantime ( once your Canadian papers are submitted, of course ) - a grandparent's BC, grandparents' marriage cert., your mother's marriage cert, parent's marriage cert, your BC - all in long form. I managed to get all the long forms in about 6 days using all premium services and paying the Fedex charges.

[Doc Nuance]

Rod- Thanks! Hey, so why do you think it's a waste of time going through mother's citizenship and to go through grandparent's citizenship instead?

So the visa is fairly straight-forward and easy, once I get the Canadian citizenship? What does that visa grant or entitle? You also note that it's the UK citizenship that's the hard part...were you naturalized? Lengthy process?

Doc

[Doc Nuance]

In 1919, Canada was a Dominion - not part of the United Kingdom. However, before the late 1940s, there was a common British nationality across all the Dominions.

Your mother was a British subject by birth. She could not have been naturalized in the United Kingdom in the 1920s because she was already British. On Jan 1, 1949, the status of British subject was replaced by Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies.

You can download the British Nationality Act 1948 (as originally enacted) from http://www.legislation.gov.uk - you can also look at the current version of the British Nationality Act 1981 and the provision for those in your situation is section 4C. Have a look at the requirements but it's probably unlikely that you qualify.

Your best hope appears to be getting an Ancestry Visa in your Canadian passport, once you have it. You can use this to move to the United Kingdom and then become naturalised British in due course, if that's what you want.

So J, if my mother was CUKC by birth, then why aren't I CUKC by ancestry first generation born on foreign soil? What am I missing here? Would my mother have to have been born in Scotland or England plus a few other places to qualify me for this single versus double-descent citizenship clause proper? Canadian citizenship does nothing for me in that respect?

So, in both of your opinions, I am not eligible for UK citizenship without living and working there for years, but I am eligible to submit for an ancestry visa to allow me "right to abode"? Is that what it's called?

Hey, Rod- what premium service did you use...and could you tell me if they were expensive? I've seen a lot of different prices etc. Thanks!

[rod_p]

Believe what's being stated - CUKC is completely irrelevant for us Canadians ( best example of a colony that comes to mind would have been Hong Kong ).

Canada has not been a British colony since 1867. However, we are a "commonwealth country". Therefore, Canadian citizens are classified as commonwealth citizens ( one of the requirements for an Ancestry Visa ).

In 1962, the law was written to allow commonwealth citizens the right to live and work in the UK. That was tightened up in 1971 and it was then required to also have close ties to the UK prior to immigration. In 1983, it was completely eliminated. Fortunately, you have claim to commonwealth citizenship, otherwise you would not qualify for an ancestry visa at all ( better get that processed ASAP - it's your only real bottleneck ).

In regards to priority service for my Ancestry Visas, the service I received was standard. AFAIK, nothing has changed in that respect ( but you need to check - everything is always changing ).

As in my two experiences, it makes the best sense to get your Canadian citizenship and passport, all of your BC's and marriage certificates, make an appointment online and then head over to the nearest UK consulate. The consulates are located in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Florida, Houston, LA, New York and San Francisco. Of course the "High Commission" ( embassy ) is in DC - which, I believe, does the job also.

The price of an Ancestry Visa is quite cheap - less than 100 pound / 150 USD. Entry is cheap, but don't worry, they get you later ( ILR + Citizenship cost > 2400 GBP - ouch )!

[rod_p]

So, in both of your opinions, I am not eligible for UK citizenship without living and working there for years, but I am eligible to submit for an ancestry visa to allow me "right to abode"? Is that what it's called?

It is not called "right to abode" - that implies unrestricted right to live and work in the UK ( ie. freedom from immigration controls ).

The Ancestry Visa is something different. Technically it is titled "Ancestry Certificate" which certifies your status as a person with hereditary rights to live and work in the UK. You have no need for either a "visa" or a work permit. You can take any form of legal employment.

However, you are not "free from immigration controls" until you get ILR or have become "settled". There are a number of requirements to become settled, though the process is a lot easier for somebody on Ancestry. For example, there is no need to show your employment history over 5 years as in work visa status ( only prove financial means over the final 3 months of the 5 years and never resort to "public funds" in the entire time ).

The trickiest part, though, to become settled is the requirement to be absent from the country less than whatever is deemed to be the maximum at the time ( a real moving target ). That is the reason why I needed a second Ancestry Visa. Don't worry you can keep getting them as long as the law doesn't change and you aren't convicted of a criminal offence in the meantime.

[Doc Nuance]

Believe what's being stated - CUKC is completely irrelevant for us Canadians ( best example of a colony that comes to mind would have been Hong Kong ).

Canada has not been a British colony since 1867. However, we are a "commonwealth country". Therefore, Canadian citizens are classified as commonwealth citizens ( one of the requirements for an Ancestry Visa ).

In 1962, the law was written to allow commonwealth citizens the right to live and work in the UK. That was tightened up in 1971 and it was then required to also have close ties to the UK prior to immigration. In 1983, it was completely eliminated. Fortunately, you have claim to commonwealth citizenship, otherwise you would not qualify for an ancestry visa at all ( better get that processed ASAP - it's your only real bottleneck ).

In regards to priority service for my Ancestry Visas, the service I received was standard. AFAIK, nothing has changed in that respect ( but you need to check - everything is always changing ).

As in my two experiences, it makes the best sense to get your Canadian citizenship and passport, all of your BC's and marriage certificates, make an appointment online and then head over to the nearest UK consulate. The consulates are located in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Florida, Houston, LA, New York and San Francisco. Of course the "High Commission" ( embassy ) is in DC - which, I believe, does the job also.

Rod- you have great advice, sir. Will do on the Canadian citizenship first, then UK pursuit to follow. Hey, there appears to be some new developments in this case...my grandfather (maternal) was in Crown Service at the time of my mother's birth...that's why she was born in Canada to a Scottish mother and English father. He was in the Canadian Army Medical Corps serving Her Majesty! So, does that give me an "otherwise than by descent" exemption? Does that service make my mother's birth in Canada less relevant to my desired UK citizenship?

Here's some research-

20.2.5 Under s.14(2), a British citizen born outside the United Kingdom before 1 January 1983 is not a British citizen by descent under s.14(1) for any of the reasons in 20.2.4.a, b, c, d or i above if, at the time of the birth, his or her father:
• was serving outside the United Kingdom; and
• was in Crown service under the government of the United Kingdom; or
• was in service of any description at any time designated under s.2(3); or
7
• was in service under a Community institution; and
• was recruited for the service in question:
a. in the United Kingdom, if in Crown service or service at any time
designated under s.2(3); or
b. in a country which was at the time a member of the Communities, if in
service under a Community institution

Is this the bureaucratic/legislative grail I've been looking for to squeeze into my claim of UK citizenship? Does this look like a game-changer to you?

Thanks-

Doc

[rod_p]

Is this the bureaucratic/legislative grail I've been looking for to squeeze into my claim of UK citizenship? Does this look like a game-changer to you?

Thanks-

Doc

I believe so...however, the exact details of the law go all over the place - some situations carry over into a new legislation ( eg. 1962 act vs. 1983 ), some get superseded. So you have to look it over carefully, consult an expert, or call the High Commission / a consulate.

Here is a decent description of "crown service" with some of the finer details qualified:

http://www.workpermit.com/uk/citizenshi ... d_services

Proving this would save a lot of cash over 6 years!

[Doc Nuance]

Is this the bureaucratic/legislative grail I've been looking for to squeeze into my claim of UK citizenship? Does this look like a game-changer to you?

Thanks-

Doc

I believe so...however, the exact details of the law go all over the place - some situations carry over into a new legislation ( eg. 1962 act vs. 1983 ), some get superseded. So you have to look it over carefully, consult an expert, or call the High Commission / a consulate.

Here is a decent description of "crown service" with some of the finer details qualified:

http://www.workpermit.com/uk/citizenshi ... d_services

Proving this would save a lot of cash over 6 years!

Haha- true- it would save a bundle! I studied the link you posted and it doesn't specifically name anything Canadian or even "Colony"-related armed services, but it sure seems like they'd be causing undo harm to those loyalists, who do serve abroad, to not confer upon their children "citizenship other than by descent".

As a reward for their foreign service, their kids cannot bestow UK citizenship on their kids, but those who stayed home can do so? That just seems patently unfair and ridiculous...so I am guardedly optimistic at this point.

Where do you think I may find the proper records to support this theory? Is it a two-step of UK Citizenship Crown Service exemption followed by The Canadian Army Medical Service Corps records of his service?

Woo-hoo! I think I'm gettin' there...

Thanks- Doc

[rod_p]

I don't know about service in the Canadian Military ( I just noticed that ). I do know that Canadian pilots served in WWI as part of the RAF - I have no idea how other military services were linked up at the time of your mother's birth.

I think the text above that you mention may be critical "was recruited for the service in question: a. in the United Kingdom, if in Crown service or service at any time designated under s.2(3);"

As for enlistment in the Canadian military - those records are easily looked up online:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/index-e.html

Years ago I looked up my grandfather's military ( still available of course ) on this site. Not only do they provide enlistment information, there is an image of the actual enlistment card that contains all sorts of information on the enlistee - where they were living at the time, occupation prior to enlistment plus a whole lot of other information you never knew about your grandparent. If they do not show up here at all, that would certainly indicate they were recruited in the UK and somehow seconded to Canada to work with the Canadian military.

I think if the enlistment occurred in Canada, your chances probably dim somewhat as it would imply your grandparent's immigrated to Canada and then enlisted. Again, I am no expert ( at all ) and you would need to consult one in order to know 100% if your mother is "British other than by descent".

[rod_p]

This is the exact location of the lookup I mentioned:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/data ... 0.01-e.php

( this covers recruitment up to 1918 ).

[rod_p]

I noticed this

"WAR STORY OF THE C.A.M.C. ...surgeons who came over with the British regiments found their services in such request that many of them elected to remain when their regiments were recalled".

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/ ... /camc.html

Notice the mention of "British Regiments". If your grandfather was one of these doctors, that would certainly indicate recruitment in the UK - which according to the link, is likely the case.

[JAJ]

So J, if my mother was CUKC by birth, then why aren't I CUKC by ancestry first generation born on foreign soil? What am I missing here?

You are missing the fact that CUKC is not the same thing as British subject status. Canada was never part of the United Kingdom & Colonies for nationality purposes.

If you work through the British Nationality Act 1948 your mother became a CUKC by virtue of 12(2) of the Act and if male, would have been deemed a CUKC by descent under 12(8). Apply this to section 4C of the 1981 Act and it appears you do not meet the requirements.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61/section/4C

So, in both of your opinions, I am not eligible for UK citizenship without living and working there for years, but I am eligible to submit for an ancestry visa to allow me "right to abode"?

Ancestry visa and Right of Abode are not the same thing either.

[Doc Nuance]

I noticed this

"WAR STORY OF THE C.A.M.C. ...surgeons who came over with the British regiments found their services in such request that many of them elected to remain when their regiments were recalled".

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/ ... /camc.html

Notice the mention of "British Regiments". If your grandfather was one of these doctors, that would certainly indicate recruitment in the UK - which according to the link, is likely the case.

My grandfather's enlistment attestation is dated Jan. 13, 1915...becomes part of the 33rd battalion and serves through my mother's birth and afterwards. But on his attestation he says he is, in fact, part of an "active militia" already, so I guess perhaps he was already in the British Army as a Corporal in the 20th Regiment Bearer Section. It's hard to read the writing, but it looks like 20th...may be 26 or 25...

It's my understanding that if someone who is serving in the military in service to the Crown and they have a child, that child is British "other than by descent" a Crown Service exemption, if you will...see previous posts and it may clarify.

Do you understand the Crown Service to mean something else? I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Thank you so much for your input, sir.

Doc

[rod_p]

I agree with your definition of the crown. As a matter of fact, according to the first link I posted, it extends into such areas as Services Central Book Depot and the YMCA - much further than one would expect.

That said, I think you need to find out as much information about what your grandfather did, who is was getting paid by / who ultimately controlled his assignments ( Canadians or British ), etc. and ask a professional / the UK High Commission or Console whether your grandfather was deemed to be in British Crown Service. My guess is it's about 75 / 25 in his favor.

One thing I think that should be noted, though, is Canada still views the Queen as the ultimate power in the country - but only in a symbolic sense. We have a Governor-General in Ottawa who "represents" the Queen and signs all laws into power. If the Queen happens to be in town, she will be asked to sign laws also. But this is strictly a symbolic gesture to our tradition.

The terms Crown / Crown Service are used in Canada also. However, the term has no interpretation to mean "British Crown". For example, if you get charged with a crime, the trial will have a "Crown Attorney" and would be titled something like "Her Majesty vs. John Edward Smith". This is interpreted symbolically. You are not being put on trial for an offense against the Queen of England. Rather you are accused of an offense in Canada only - and the Queen is mentioned purely as the symbolic head of Canada.

Again, you need to understand Canada is a sovereign nation, since 1867, and just because your Grandfather served the "Crown" in our military, it does not necessarily mean he was serving the Queen of England at the time. It is a very fuzzy area that you will need to fully clarify before going forward with a claim of Citizenship based on your Mother's citizenship ( by descent or otherwise ).

However, a Canadian pilot that served in the RAF during WWI would definitely be viewed as serving Canada during the war ( we just did not have an Air Force at the time ) and hence be considered a Canadian War Hero. For that reason, I think your chances are pretty good.

[Doc Nuance]

I agree with your definition of the crown. As a matter of fact, according to the first link I posted, it extends into such areas as Services Central Book Depot and the YMCA - much further than one would expect.

That said, I think you need to find out as much information about what your grandfather did, who is was getting paid by / who ultimately controlled his assignments ( Canadians or British ), etc. and ask a professional / the UK High Commission or Console whether your grandfather was deemed to be in British Crown Service. My guess is it's about 75 / 25 in his favor.

One thing I think that should be noted, though, is Canada still views the Queen as the ultimate power in the country - but only in a symbolic sense. We have a Governor-General in Ottawa who "represents" the Queen and signs all laws into power. If the Queen happens to be in town, she will be asked to sign laws also. But this is strictly a symbolic gesture to our tradition.

The terms Crown / Crown Service are used in Canada also. However, the term has no interpretation to mean "British Crown". For example, if you get charged with a crime, the trial will have a "Crown Attorney" and would be titled something like "Her Majesty vs. John Edward Smith". This is interpreted symbolically. You are not being put on trial for an offense against the Queen of England. Rather you are accused of an offense in Canada only - and the Queen is mentioned purely as the symbolic head of Canada.

Again, you need to understand Canada is a sovereign nation, since 1867, and just because your Grandfather served the "Crown" in our military, it does not necessarily mean he was serving the Queen of England at the time. It is a very fuzzy area that you will need to fully clarify before going forward with a claim of Citizenship based on your Mother's citizenship ( by descent or otherwise ).

However, a Canadian pilot that served in the RAF during WWI would definitely be viewed as serving Canada during the war ( we just did not have an Air Force at the time ) and hence be considered a Canadian War Hero. For that reason, I think your chances are pretty good.

All excellent points! I agree and would add that I REALLY need to see his service records! The other interesting thing that may increase my Vegas odds of 3-1, is that on his original attestation, it asks if he "now belongs to an Active Militia" and he answers yes.

Not conclusive of anything yet, but I know one had to "enlist" in the CEF even if one was already in another branch of service at the time, so he may have been in true, English "Crown Seervice" and THEN signed on to the CEF.

How do I get a copy of his service records? Advice?

Doc

[rod_p]

Curious whether the info you have found was from the Canadian link or you have a copy of his enlistment card? What "present address" was given on his enlistment card? I think that would be fairly important.

UK Militia records are right here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... ilitia.htm

Other military records are accessed via links right here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... or-person/

Not sure, but I think the website requires you to purchase "credits" prior to actually giving you any info. At one time it didn't and then it did - who knows now. I believe it will only ask you once you get close to the record you want.

[rod_p]

As an additional example of the Canada-UK co-operation during WWI, my Grandfather's story is interesting.

The original intention was for him to head for the front line. However, since he had been working for the Canadian government doing forestry management, he ended up being assigned to plan the harvesting of the forests in England for the "Canadian Forestry Corps" - a group of lumberjacks who cut down trees to provide lumber to the British Army ( for boxes, foxhole reinforcement, etc ).

My Grandfather was 100% Canadian Army - just doing what he was good at for the overall war effort. Just like your Grandfather did what he was good at once the war was over - likely working with Canadian troops returning home. Hopefully you can prove the co-operative nature of his role rather than his selecting the work on more of an immigration-type basis.

[pairolakies]

Not conclusive of anything yet, but I know one had to "enlist" in the CEF even if one was already in another branch of service at the time, so he may have been in true, English "Crown Seervice" and THEN signed on to the CEF.

How do I get a copy of his service records? Advice?

Doc

Hello Doc Nuance, curious if you ever resolved your question about if the CET was considered "crown service" or not. I have a similar faint hope clause through my mother's father. I'd love to hear how you made out!