Travelling up North??

[Malika]

Here is one answer to a Freedom of Information request to UK Border Agency

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... mber_entry
https://acme.posterous.com/129065688

Travelling from Ireland would make matters slightly more complicated in that there is no routine immigration control between there and the UK, due to what is called the common travel area (CTA). The CTA operates on the principle that once a person has been granted leave to enter in one part of it, they will not normally require leave to enter another part of it whilst that leave is still valid and provided that they do not leave it. Consequently, so long as you are subject to one of the exceptions to this general principle (excluded, previously deported etc.), you would not need to anything further in order to travel here from there for a visit.

Anita Sikka

UK Immigration Officer

That's well and good in theory................................you might be legally resident in the CTA but sometimes you might be asked for a visa if you are a Visa required national when crossing the border between the two islands.

Regards,

[frei]

For those who have been on this forum for long, you might remember a poster named Monifé who had both Irish and British passports, tried to get her partner residency through exercising treaty rights as British National but was refused, She eventually got residency under Irish Law.


Regards,

You can see why Monife was refused here. McCarthy v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2008] EWCA Civ 641 (11 June 2008)

[IntegratedMigrant]

Malika, the OP is clearly an Irish citizen. so IF op travels to NI with the spouse they will be legally entering NI.

monife has dual citizenship, Irish/British hence the reason for the refusal. It was indeed a valid rejection. That is a different arrest by the CJEU which is not relevant to this thread

Northern Ireland is in United Kingdom and not in the Republic of Ireland. An Irish citizen can travel to NI and most European countries without restriction but their partner wont!

This is not about Google. If in doubt please ring an/or all European embassies to confirm that. A Spouse of an Irish citizen in Ireland hold Stamp 4 and not 4EUFAM thus restricted from exercising their EU rights!

This is not about what Google says, this is about what is practiced.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Here is one answer to a Freedom of Information request to UK Border Agency

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... mber_entry
https://acme.posterous.com/129065688

Travelling from Ireland would make matters slightly more complicated in that there is no routine immigration control between there and the UK, due to what is called the common travel area (CTA). The CTA operates on the principle that once a person has been granted leave to enter in one part of it, they will not normally require leave to enter another part of it whilst that leave is still valid and provided that they do not leave it. Consequently, so long as you are subject to one of the exceptions to this general principle (excluded, previously deported etc.), you would not need to anything further in order to travel here from there for a visit.

Anita Sikka

UK Immigration Officer

The first link is about a French National and her husband who hold an EU family member residence card. Spouse of Irish nationals in Ireland do not hold this card therefore the link is irrelevant to the initial post.

The second link details about how a Non-EU member could be allowed entry in NI without restriction. I should also say that the link does not mention if the family member holds a 4EUFAM or just Stamp 4. A Spouse of an Irish can hold 4EUFAM if the Irish spouse exercise their EU rights, but as long as they lived in Ireland, Stamp 4 will be issued to them which as I've said restricts the non-eu member from exercising their EU Family member rights!

[Malika]

Malika, the OP is clearly an Irish citizen. so IF op travels to NI with the spouse they will be legally entering NI.

monife has dual citizenship, Irish/British hence the reason for the refusal. It was indeed a valid rejection. That is a different arrest by the CJEU which is not relevant to this thread

If it is different, then why quote EU Law when the OP is Irish, resident in Ireland and not exercising Treaty Rights.You are the first that started this EU business. You quoted the EU Directive and my answer was to that so it is relevant

My hubby has recently found a friend from his home country is living up North and he'd love to go up and visit him for a weekend.
Hubby has stamp 4 residency.
Does he need a visa to cross the border? Or can he just head up? Any ideas?

The OP does not mention anything about accompanying the partner.



I have had enough of this................. let us agree to disagree!

Regards,

[frei]

IntegratedImmigrant, you thought you'r on top of this? NO you aren't, you do not know what you are talking about still.

EU citizens can enter the territory of another member state with their non eu spouse without visas, residence cards, or resident permit. The only thing which they need to have at all times if their marriage certificate and passport.

Member state must admit such person into their territory. see article 5 of the directive and stop all this claptrap.

You are very annoying with your constant mix up of this rules, please fade off and let people who know about this issue discuss it.

This is the last time I will be replying to any of your claptrap post again.

[IntegratedMigrant]

IntegratedImmigrant, you thought you'r on top of this? NO you aren't, you do not know what you are talking about still.

EU citizens can enter the territory of another member state with their non eu spouse without visas, residence cards, or resident permit. The only thing which they need to have at all times if their marriage certificate and passport.

Member state must admit such person into their territory. see article 5 of the directive and stop all this claptrap.

You are very annoying with your constant mix up of this rules, please fade off and let people who know about this issue discuss it.

This is the last time I will be replying to any of your claptrap post again.

I should remind you that this is Ireland not Deutschland, Immigration rules are different here to wherever you are.

Again what I state is facts not nonsensical childish comments.

Users beware of this Child, he is clueless about anything and cant back it up with facts but insults!.

Users should also be advised that any comments from this User should not be regarded as a right source because this user gives false information!

[IntegratedMigrant]

Malika, the OP is clearly an Irish citizen. so IF op travels to NI with the spouse they will be legally entering NI.

monife has dual citizenship, Irish/British hence the reason for the refusal. It was indeed a valid rejection. That is a different arrest by the CJEU which is not relevant to this thread

If it is different, then why quote EU Law when the OP is Irish, resident in Ireland and not exercising Treaty Rights.You are the first that started this EU business. You quoted the EU Directive and my answer was to that so it is relevant

My hubby has recently found a friend from his home country is living up North and he'd love to go up and visit him for a weekend.
Hubby has stamp 4 residency.
Does he need a visa to cross the border? Or can he just head up? Any ideas?

The OP does not mention anything about accompanying the partner.



I have had enough of this................. let us agree to disagree!

Regards,

I just explained the same thing to him and what he answered back was bunch of childish and silly insults. Sounds like we're on the very same page. Hope "Frei don't rattle you with insults!. He is a master of it!.

[frei]

If it is different, then why quote EU Law when the OP is Irish, resident in Ireland and not exercising Treaty Rights.You are the first that started this EU business. You quoted the EU Directive and my answer was to that so it is relevant

What you do not understand is, if OP travels to NI with the spouse immediately on entering NI OP will be exercising her treaty rights and so doing will legalize the presence of the spouse.

My hubby has recently found a friend from his home country is living up North and he'd love to go up and visit him for a weekend.
Hubby has stamp 4 residency.
Does he need a visa to cross the border? Or can he just head up? Any ideas?

Op spouse will need a visa supposing he will be travelling alone, however if op accompany the spouse on the journey, the spouse will be legally entering NI regardless of what resident document he holds.

The OP does not mention anything about accompanying the partner.

Agreed, my initial post was in reply to this

This would depend on whether the residency is issued under EU or Irish Immigration Law. that is, if the GNIB card is endorsed with either EU Fam or just Stamp 4. The Op has mentioned previously the difficulty in getting her spouse residency. I seem to remember the OP is an Irish National. When going to other embassies, I think visa fee is charged.

I have had enough of this................. let us agree to disagree!

Fine

[jeupsy]

frei, do you have any link to an official UK website which clearly states the fact that family members of EU nationals can enter visa-free if they are accompanied by their EU family member?

I would like it to be the case as it would make things easier for myself and my partner, but from what I have been reading the UK is not implementing the EU directive properly and is still requiring either a visa or an "entry clearance" for EU citizens family members. Here is the information I can find on the UKBA website: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ly-permit/

(and I don't want to start the debate again, but even if the UK was to implement the Directive properly, I would agree with people saying that since his Irish residance card is not an EU FAM one, he wouldn't be visa exempt for the UK anyway - but entitled for a free and "no question asked" visa as the spouse of an EU citizen)

[acme4242]

jeupsy, there is a distinction between legal rights, and what happens in practice if you travel by airline.
Airlines require a UK issued RC or visa, because UKBA told them not to allow anyone travel without it.

It is a legal right of all EU nationals and their family members regardless of nationality to enter another EU state even without a visa.
This legal right is restricted and often denied if you fly.

UKBA guidance document, based on law, valid from 28th Aug 2012
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Although it is preferable they obtain one pre-entry to make possible their travel, an EEA family permit is not mandatory. Regulation 11(4) of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006 allows a person to provide other proof of their right to enter the UK, if they do not have an EEA family permit, residence card or permanent residence card.

this and older versions of the same uk info
http://acme.posterous.com/if-no-eea-british-visa


But Airline info says you must have a EEA Family Permit, or UK residence card.
http://www.skyteam.com/en/your-trip/Ser ... nd-Health/

Visa required, except for Holders of an EEA Family Permit
issued by the UK, providing the holder is travelling with, or
to join the EEA or Swiss national.

[frei]

It is a requirement that non visa national should be in possession of a visa/EEA-FP when entering the UK.

The freedom of movement law however will allow family member of an EU citizen to be admitted into any EU member state even if they are not in possession of a valid visa or residence card.

5.5.1 Admission of family members who are unable to produce a valid
passport, family permit or residence card
Border Force officers will need to assess whether or not a person qualifies for
admission under the EEA Regulations in the above situations. Ports should
take particular note of the guidance on those who seek admission under the
extended family member provisions as dependents relatives and as family
members of an EEA national with whom they have a “durable relationship”
(unmarried partner); the relevant criteria in Part 8 of the Rules (excluding
entry clearance) should be used to make a decision on whether or not to
admit under EEA Regulations. Unlike immediate family members the EEA
Regulations allow for an “extensive examination of the personal
circumstances” of extended family members.
5.5.2 Seeking admission at port
Applicants at port should be treated as persons seeking admission unless
reference is made to applying for a residence card. Admission will fall into one
of the following:
• produces satisfactory evidence on arrival
The person should be admitted for 6 months on a Code 1A. Complete landing
card.
• Is unable to produce satisfactory evidence on arrival
The person should be given “every reasonable opportunity” to prove by other
means that he is the family member of an EEA national; a person should not
automatically be refused admission as a result of not being able to produce
adequate evidence. As a guide within a week of arriving at port should be
adequate; ports can consider refusing admission at this point, unless the
situation suggests more time is needed.
• submits an application for admission post arrival
The person has arrived seeking entry in another capacity and whilst on
temporary admission (TA) seeks admission under the EEA Regulations. In
such circumstances the same guidance as in the point above should be
followed. If a person has been on TA for more than 3 months any decision will
attract an in country right of appeal

See full link http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

[frei]

Article 5 of (4-5) of directive 2004/38/ec

4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not
have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State
concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain
the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to
corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and
residence.
5. The Member State may require the person concerned to report his/her presence within its
territory within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time. Failure to comply with this
requirement may make the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory
sanctions

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

What is all this silly noise!

My hubby has recently found a friend from his home country is living up North and he'd love to go up and visit him for a weekend.
Hubby has stamp 4 residency.
Does he need a visa to cross the border? Or can he just head up? Any ideas?

Will you be travelling together? What is your citizenship? Those are the key questions!

If you are an EU citizen and will be travelling with your husband, then no visa is needed and you should just go on your way. But you need to carry your marriage certificate.

[jeupsy]

Thanks a lot acme4242/frei, interesting documents. It is annoying - but my conclusion is that I probably won't chance it at least for air travel as the chances of being truned back by an over-zealous airline employe or border control officer are too high :-s (especially since we are not married and her EU FAM card is based on de-facto relashionship)

[frei]

What is all this silly noise!


Will you be travelling together? What is your citizenship? Those are the key questions!

If you are an EU citizen and will be travelling with your husband, then no visa is needed and you should just go on your way. But you need to carry your marriage certificate.

Apologies for the noise Rightly said.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Thanks a lot acme4242/frei, interesting documents. It is annoying - but my conclusion is that I probably won't chance it at least for air travel as the chances of being truned back by an over-zealous airline employe or border control officer are too high :-s (especially since we are not married and her EU FAM card is based on de-facto relashionship)

De-facto relationships come under the terms of other family members and entitlement to rights is not automatic.

[jeupsy]

De-facto relationships come under the terms of other family members and entitlement to rights is not automatic.

Thanks

But I thought that once your country of residence has issued a residence card based on the EU directive (EU FAM in Ireland), then other EU countries have to accept the card as a proof that you qualify to enter without a visa. Is that wrong?

(I understand that if you don't have an EU FAM type of card you need to be married or civil partners, but I thought once you have it, it is different)

[Malika]

Thanks a lot acme4242/frei, interesting documents. It is annoying - but my conclusion is that I probably won't chance it at least for air travel as the chances of being truned back by an over-zealous airline employe or border control officer are too high :-s (especially since we are not married and her EU FAM card is based on de-facto relashionship)

I think it is always good to be cautious..................... one can quote all the relevant law with regard to freedom of movement but if the airline officials or the immigration people say you need a visa then what are you to do?

I don't like what one poster has termed what we are discussing as 'silly noise' surely everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Regards,

[frei]

I think it is always good to be cautious..................... one can quote all the relevant law with regard to freedom of movement but if the airline officials or the immigration people say you need a visa then what are you to do?

I don't like what one poster has termed what we are discussing as 'silly noise' surely everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Regards,

Malika, what you do forget is the immigration officers are not above the law, in the case of freedom of movement the UKBA officers have sufficient knowledge of how this works, seems you've not been following this forum closely, quite a number of people have been granted code 1A at the UK borders, they have arrived at the border without visa and are spouses of EU citizens.

Immigration officers know the implication of denying these people their rights and would normally not dare refuse them admission, see the case of and overzealous and or ignorant immigration officer in Ireland here Overzealous officer