European Union for British Citizens - really???

[SRAQAI]

Some regulars here know about me and my husbands tormoil in obtaining a schengan visa and our problems in finding a place to live on arrival in France. I started this thread, because there is the serious question as to whether the Directive 2004/38/ec is applied in fairness when it comes to UK citizens, and the role the UK citizens' actual rights as an EU national, when on the continent. I have spoken to a few colleagues and classmates, friends and general acquaintances, all of whom have a link to Europe. I have found these things quite common, when it comes to the rights if UK citizens, in other EU states. I have spoken to French, Germans, Austrians and Irish and all have similar answers when it comes to UK citizens in their countries.

1. Companies and organizations would rather give a job to a local citizen first, before looking at giving a job to an EU Citizen. I.e, in Germany they would hire the German over the UK citizen. In the UK, it would be almost illegal to do this, because "EU citizens should be treated equally

2. It's common that EU citizens/UK citizens would find it hard to settle and find a place to live. One French colleague of mine said to me "why would a landlord rent to you, a foreigner, who could leave without paying rent, over a French national whom they could persue for rent?" In the UK, it would be almost illegal to do this, because "EU citizens should be treated equally"

3. An Irish colleague said that in Ireland, they would almost always hire an Irish over a brit, because the Irish economy is bad and people are leaving (and coming to the UK and taking scarce jobs here!)because of lack of jobs, so if there was any work, it would go to an Irish citizen. This was discussed when I mentioned my possibility of moving to ireland for work.

4. The German classmate suggested not going to Germany at all because its 'too hard on foreigners'.

So, this begs the question, how on earth can UK citizens assert any of their rights when in tbe EU - especially the directive 20038/ec? In theory we have all these lovely rights to 'practice our treaty rights in the EU' - but in practice this is not the case. Yes, we can travel there with ease, live there with ease, but finding a job and settling there without lots of money and without doing 'menial' jobs like washing dishes, if you dont speak the language is not easy. Unless one works for a multinational company where you are being posted to to the Eu, with all the expat trimmings, a British national will not have an easy time in Europe. As far as UKBA is concerned, i think, this is who is classed as a 'worker' in europe IDEALLY, in terms of Singh case when coming back to the UK.


If you dont speak the language, why would you go to Europe from the UK to wash dishes, whilst you learn the language? Even jobs like these go to locals in european nations, apart from UK, where these jobs are widely available to europeans who come here and are able to settle and live and work according to their rights.

But whsn it comes to UK rights in fhe EU, we are 'foreign' and are treated as such.

Both the UK government and EU is very discriminatory, when it comes to the UK asserting their rights. There are even some States who apply the directive to their own citizens, benefiting their own countrymen. The UK does no such thing, but rigourously upholds the rights of EU in tbe UK, unless your British. Why are we tolerating this discrimination?

[jeupsy]

Are you serious? The UK probably is the worst offender when it comes to refuse the application of European legislation.
For exemple you mention directive 2004/38 ... and to my knowledge the UK is the only country which denies the right for holders of residance permits from other EU countries to enter without a visa (which should be allowed based on the directive). All other EU countries do accept foreign residance permit based on the directive as a visa-waiver.

And regarding getting a job or renting an appartement being easier for locals. What you mention is correct and probably applies to evey singly county in the world - including the UK.

Do you really think that given a choice between equally qualified Spanish and British applicants, a British employer won't favour the British one?

[st pauli]

3. An Irish colleague said that in Ireland, they would almost always hire an Irish over a brit, because the Irish economy is bad and people are leaving (and coming to the UK and taking scarce jobs here!)because of lack of jobs, so if there was any work, it would go to an Irish citizen. This was discussed when I mentioned my possibility of moving to ireland for work.

Well if one Irish person said it it must be true.


oh and....

There are even some States who apply the directive to their own citizens, benefiting their own countrymen

I'm pretty sure there are no member states who allow their own citizens to exercise treaty rights in their country (outside of recognised exceptions like Singh). That's a legal nonsense because clearly your rights to live and work in your country of birth do not derive from treaties signed with other countries, but from your citizenship.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I'm pretty sure there are no member states who allow their own citizens to exercise treaty rights in their country (outside of recognised exceptions like Singh). That's a legal nonsense because clearly your rights to live and work in your country of birth do not derive from treaties signed with other countries, but from your citizenship.

There are some member states that do not practice what is termed "reverse discrimination", which basically means that they give the same rights to their own nationals as they are bound do to by treaty for EU ones.

[jeupsy]

There are some member states that do not practice what is termed "reverse discrimination", which basically means that they give the same rights to their own nationals as they are bound do to by treaty for EU ones.

Which actually might be a good thing Since for many aspects they EU is preventing member states from giving locals more benefits than other Europeans, if the local government adds a rule not to give more benefits to other Europeans than to locals ... The outcome should be that all EU citizens (local or not) are treated absolutely equally.

[SRAQAI]

Are you serious? The UK probably is the worst offender when it comes to refuse the application of European legislation.
For exemple you mention directive 2004/38 ... and to my knowledge the UK is the only country which denies the right for holders of residance permits from other EU countries to enter without a visa (which should be allowed based on the directive). All other EU countries do accept foreign residance permit based on the directive as a visa-waiver.

And regarding getting a job or renting an appartement being easier for locals. What you mention is correct and probably applies to evey singly county in the world - including the UK.

Do you really think that given a choice between equally qualified Spanish and British applicants, a British employer won't favour the British one?

I think youve misunderstood what I meant. I am not talking in terms non British EU nationals, I am talking specifically about British Citizens. If the UK government doesnt implement EU law for other EU citizens, that is one seperate thing, but when it comes to British Citizens, we do not have the same rights, on a practical level, as other EU nationals do.

In terms of employment and other opportunities for EU nationals in the UK, this is a huge issue at the moment in the UK. British were and still are complaining that Polish abd other eastern euros are taking our jobs, or are coming here to live on welfare and get free housing. If you havent seen in the news the issues around this then i am surprised. The EU citizen in the UK has much of an easier ride in the UK then British do in the EU on all levels and in the UK, an employer doesnt look at whether a person is british or eu, because both have to be treated 'equally'. So, yes, there are thousands of british who are jobless in the UK, yet europeans are here walking into jobs.

There is plenty of EU countries that apply the directive to their own citizens.... I think Germany is one. I cant think of others, but there is a sticky somewhere listing them. The UK of course doesnt. An EU citizen has a right to bring their non EU spouse the UK, but a UK citizen doesnt, unless done through singh. Britain is discriminating against its own citizens.

[SRAQAI]

. All other EU countries do accept foreign residance permit based on the directive as a visa-waiver.

And regarding getting a job or renting an appartement being easier for locals. What you mention is correct and probably applies to evey singly county in the world - including the UK.

Do you really think that given a choice between equally qualified Spanish and British applicants, a British employer won't favour the British one?

Can you explain why then, it took two years for the french to give my husband an entry visa, and why we wernt offered a 'waiver'?

Ive lived in Canada, America, Middle East and Asia. Ive never been told that i have to freeze €20,000 into a local acct or pay rent one years in advance, because i was 'foreign'. And this is outside the 'EU', which is meant to promote 'equal' treatment.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

While it must be very frustrating for the op with her particular experience. There are only certain circumstances where eu states can give priority to their own citizens.

[jeupsy]

If your husband holds a residence permit from any EU country as a family member of an EU citizen (ie residence card issued based on EU directive 2004/38 ), he can enter France without a visa as long as you are traveling together ... As well as any other EU country except the UK.

If he doesn't have that kind of card, as long as you can provide a marriage certificate and both your passports they should issue him a visa free of charge and without asking you for things like bank statements or proof of insurance. Did you provide these and what was their problem with your application?

If you did and they refused for other reasons than a threat to national security or a lack of evidence that your marriage is genuine, they were breaking EU and French laws.

I would say that if they wrongly refuse you can contact solvit and they will probably help you get them to issue the visa.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If your husband holds a residence permit from any EU country as a family member of an EU citizen (ie residence card issued based on EU directive 2004/38), he can enter France without a visa as long as you are traveling together ... As well as any other EU country except the UK.

If he doesn't have that kind of card, as long as you can provide a marriage certificate and both your passports they should issue him a visa free of charge and without asking you for things like bank statements or proof of insurance. Did you provide these and what was their problem with your application?

If you did and they refused for other reasons than a threat to national security or a lack of evidence that your marriage is genuine, they were breaking EU and French laws.

I would say that if they wrongly refuse you can contact solvit and they will probably help you get them to issue the visa.

The op has a number of threads cataloging her problems, things did not go smoothly for her.

[jeupsy]

The op has a number of threads cataloging her problems, things did not go smoothly for her.

Ok ... I am sorry to hear that :-s I had a look and it looks like French bureaucracy didn't help.

Having said that, the UK still is one of the worse offenders in terms of not complying with EU directives, and I doubt any EU country is treating UK citizens more badly than other Europeans ... So while I understand the frustration behind it, I find it a bit hard to sympathize with a topic saying that the UK is treating other Europeans well and UK citizens in Europe are especially badly treated :-s Going through these things should make people realize how immigration in Europe is difficult EVERYWHERE ... Not get them to say their country is perfect and all welcoming while the other ones are crap.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It is true that no eu country is perfect.