Don't like ID cards? Hand over your passport

[Dawie]

Anybody who objects to their personal details going on the new "Big Brother" ID cards database will be banned from having a passport.

James Hall, the official in charge of the supposedly-voluntary scheme, said the Government would allow people to opt out - but in return they must "forgo the ability" to have a travel document.

The article can be found here.

[AlexCh]

Anybody who objects to their personal details going on the new "Big Brother" ID cards database will be banned from having a passport.

James Hall, the official in charge of the supposedly-voluntary scheme, said the Government would allow people to opt out - but in return they must "forgo the ability" to have a travel document.

The article can be found here.

Who cares - the Labour are done anyway - they may tell anything and they have nothing to lose - I do not think they will be involved in any final stages of the ID cards project.

[olisun]

Who cares - the Labour are done anyway

How can you be so 100% sure???

The locals are more in nos compared to the immigrants and the current message out there (thanks to the immigrants for spreading it out themselves) is "immigrants are not welcome in this country".

So who's going to loose the game actually???

[British]

Well, if immigrants are not welcome in this country, who loses?

At the end of the day, its britain that will lose - economically and talent wise as well.

The immigrants have nothing to lose - if UK becomes an un-welcoming country, they will go somewhere else, obviously! The Planet does not just have one country - UK!

BUt yes, on the public support, i guess you are correct! Labour is now very friendly to British public, since they have passed on clear public freindly message - Immigrants are not welcome into this country! That is 100% correct!

[Christophe]

Immigrants are not welcome into this country! That is 100% correct!

Yes, to readers (it seems) of the likes of the Daily Mail and the Sun. I'm not entirely sure that it's a universal feeling among the British public though. It is certainly true, however, that many people (possibly most) feel that the present government has mismanaged many aspects of immigration (that this is true can be attested to, from the other angle, by the number and type of posts on this forum!), but that doesn't amount to exactly the same thing.

[olisun]

At the end of the day, its britain that will lose - economically and talent wise as well.

Was Britain's economy is a bad shape before the HSMP scheme?

Also how many people will still "NOT" come to the UK even if Britain dropped the "settlement" clause from the scheme?

EDIT: my original message should have read "immigrants are not welcome in this country to settle permanently".

[Dawie]

At the end of the day, its britain that will lose - economically and talent wise as well.

Was Britain's economy is a bad shape before the HSMP scheme?

Also how many people will still "NOT" come to the UK even if Britain dropped the "settlement" clause from the scheme?

EDIT: my original message should have read "immigrants are not welcome in this country to settle permanently".

If you look at a lot of the Gulf Arab states like the UAE, they employ thousands of immigrants, mainly from Bangladesh, India and Pakistan without offering them any prospect of settlement, let alone citizenship. They are purely there to do a job (mostly in construction and in atrocious conditions) and then are actively encouraged (forced) to go home afterwards. I've read many reports of employers holding on to migrant workers passports as colateral to ensure the workers tow the line.

I hope this is not what the UK is sliding into. Britain has a dark history when it comes to the Indian sub-continent and indentured slave labour. In the 19th century hundreds of thousands of Indian workers were contracted to work on the sugar plantations in then British colonies like South Africa and Mauritius where they were all supposed to work hard, appreciate the benevolence of their hosts and behave like good Indians. Most importantly, they were supposed to return to India when their "slave" contracts were finished. Of course most of them stayed on after their contracts finished and started their own businesses, most of which were better run and more successful than local British businesses in the particular colony.

One gets the feeling that this pattern is repeating itself in Britain today. Highly skilled workers are being imported into Britain from the Indian sub-continent, in most cases more skilled and successful than their British counterparts. They are lured here on the promise of settlement, but all indications are that the British government has no intention of honouring its side of the bargain, making it increasingly difficult for immigrants to reach that magical "settled" status.

The British economy is perfectly happy to benefit from skilled-immigrants...for a few years. But then, when they start demanding too many rights, asking for too much say, they are demonised, the rules are changed, and all of a sudden immigrants find themselves with no option but to return back to their home countries, leaving lots of space of a fresh batch of immigrants who can be manipulated. And when they start demanding too much, the rules will be changed again.

[OL7MAX]

James Hall, the official in charge of the supposedly-voluntary scheme, said the Government would allow people to opt out - but in return they must "forgo the ability" to have a travel document.

The UK is becoming an increasingly unpleasant place to live in. What I find even scarier than the amount of control government wants over our personal lives is the lack of popular outrage against the creeping state. The average Briton has been lulled into a sense of apathy - if not downright stupidity - on the issues of liberty and freedom. They seem, too, to have forgotten how hard their forefathers fought for it (and the price those brave men and women paid). Perhaps they deserve the life the next few decades have in store for them.

The big threat isn't the terrorist, it isn't global warming, it's far more dangerous and - as it's pervaded all mainstream political parties - it's far more difficult to get rid of. Particularly when you don't even accept it's there.

The good news is that it's 2007 and it's a lot easier to move jobs, move professions, move countries. The internet provides opportunities to work from anywhere in the world while still earning the type of salary you're currently on (or more). It's a lot easier than you think and I know scores of people doing it.

If you're lucky enough to have dual nationality hang on to it. If you're on an ILR resist turning it in for a British passport even if it means you have to apply for visas for every holiday. For everybody else: start getting your foot in a door somewhere.

[Christophe]

If you're on an ILR resist turning it in for a British passport even if it means you have to apply for visas for every holiday.

In the terms of your post, wouldn't that advice apply only to people who would lose their other citizenship(s) on becoming a naturalised British citizen? For those who wouldn't, British citizenship brings more flexibility than indefinite leave to remain in the UK does.

[OL7MAX]

OK, Mr Pedant!

(Though I could argue that citizenship in itself may involve being subjected to intrusive biometric, biological, financial and other data collection, collation and use... back full circle to the OP )

[Dawie]

OK, Mr Pedant!

(Though I could argue that citizenship in itself may involve being subjected to intrusive biometric, biological, financial and other data collection, collation and use... back full circle to the OP )

If that is what is lined up for British citizens, imagine how much worse is in store for immigrants in the UK! Don't forget that ID cards are going to be introduced for foreigners resident in the UK first.

It's pretty clear that no matter what you are, citizen or foreigner, you will not escape the ID card scheme. But I think any sane, rational person would choose citizenship over ILR any day!

[OL7MAX]

Dawie, as a foreigner, there are some things you will be able to say no to that citizens may not have the option on. And you can always stick two fingers up by the simple expedient of packing a bag. Personally, I'd rather be a "foreigner".

But I think any sane, rational person would choose citizenship over ILR any day!

That is the current thought that really needs to change. It was valid 20 years ago; it's time to question whether it's still valid now.

If you come from a third world country the UK must seem like a very attractive place at first - not just from the financial POV but health, education, emergency services etc. But, stop, look around. Most of the "benefits" of being in the UK could be achieved in a number of different countries, many of them boasting better weather and better living conditions. For example, if citizenship of an EC country gives you automatic right to live and work in the UK and avail of the facilities here then it's worth checking that country's living conditions/tax levels etc. (e.g., flat rate tax in Poland - Go Poland, Go!).

If you're young and without commitments you could make a big difference to your quality of life over the next half a century by stepping back and questioning the previously unquestioned.

[Christophe]

(Though I could argue that citizenship in itself may involve being subjected to intrusive biometric, biological, financial and other data collection, collation and use... back full circle to the OP )

Don't forget though that being a British citizen does not compel one to live in (or even visit) the United Kingdom. If one has another nationality, one can certainly choose to live somewhere else.

[Dawie]

Even if you don't have another nationality, just being British will allow you to live and work in 24 other EU countries. Just having ILR on its own will not entitle you to anything except living in the UK.

OL7MAX, I agree broadly with what you are saying, but I think that having British citizenship allows you many more opportunities to escape the UK if you want to and at least you have the option of coming back to the UK if you choose. ILR will be lost after 2 years outside the UK.

[OL7MAX]

Don't forget though that being a British citizen does not compel one to live in

Arrgghhh!!!

You don't have to live in the country for them to rape your privacy. You'll still have to take your bottle of vaseline and bend over politely when you want your British passport renewed. 20 years from now they'll expect full disclosure of income to maintain your passport and/or tax you on it. They'll also maintain your biometric and other data on databases. They'll posssibly sell it but even if they don't it can be used to identify your genetic susceptibilities to certain diseases which could affect anything from your insurance to whether you're ever allowed back in the UK without a long quarantine. There's still no knowing the long term effects of the UK government's obsession with collecting people's data and micro-managing personal lives.

You also forget that as a British citizen you can be prosecuted, extradited, penalised, taxed, probed, and more... wherever in the world you are. You have to follow the local laws and British ones and you're stuffed if they ever contradict each other. Run a gambling business in the UK and you can be extradited to the US. Run an anti-global-warming-craptalk-society in the Bahamas and, in time, the British govt could have you extradited and jailed as a denier (for denying that global warming exists).

just being British will allow you to live and work in 24 other EU countries. Just having ILR on its own will not entitle you to anything except living in the UK.

OK, OK, step back. Your focus is still on British, British, Bristish. Break out of that thinking. If you identify Romania as a nice place to live and run your internet consultancy business go straight from India/South Africa/China to Romania. Don't bother coming here at all. If you're going from here p*ss on your ILR stamp on the way out. That, sir, is my point.

In fact, if enough people do it that'll hasten the visa free utopia your signature dreams about.

[ismangil]

I actually gave this some thought a while back when we have the choice of going back to home country (yes, third world) or staying here the course and try to reach settlement point (almost... and suddenly the goal post moved!) and, just maybe, consider in the very long run the "burgundy passport".

Shortlisting other countries, came up with Canada, but then we have to start all over again.

I don't know living anywhere in the world that doesn't have its downside, so all in all, for my purpose, the downside of living in the UK is outweighed by the upside. Even considering the privacy issues (it is worse in my country although nowadays not by much!) and so on.

[JAJ]

20 years from now they'll expect full disclosure of income to maintain your passport and/or tax you on it. They'll also maintain your biometric and other data on databases. They'll posssibly sell it but even if they don't it can be used to identify your genetic susceptibilities to certain diseases which could affect anything from your insurance to whether you're ever allowed back in the UK without a long quarantine. There's still no knowing the long term effects of the UK government's obsession with collecting people's data and micro-managing personal lives.

It might be more productive to plan your life based on realities today, not scare stories.

You also forget that as a British citizen you can be prosecuted, extradited, penalised, taxed, probed, and more... wherever in the world you are. You have to follow the local laws and British ones and you're stuffed if they ever contradict each other. Run a gambling business in the UK and you can be extradited to the US. Run an anti-global-warming-craptalk-society in the Bahamas and, in time, the British govt could have you extradited and jailed as a denier (for denying that global warming exists).

What British laws specifically apply to British citizens outside the UK? And to what extent is this more extensive than similar laws passed by the US, Canadian and Australian governments?

British citizens outside the UK are not subject to UK income tax (unlike Americans, for example, who are liable to U.S. federal taxes).

If you identify Romania as a nice place to live and run your internet consultancy business go straight from India/South Africa/China to Romania.

But then you have to observe Romanian immigration and nationality laws. Maybe after doing that, the UK won't seem so bad after all.

[OL7MAX]

It might be more productive to plan your life based on realities today

Not really. It would be wiser to plan your life as you expect that reality is going to pan out. The key word is "life", not the next few days. That established, I'll admit that interpretations could differ on how current trends will develop over the next 20 years, and you are perfectly entitled to work on the assumption that things can only get better.

British citizens outside the UK are not subject to UK income tax

You'll be disappointed to know that in many cases, they are! You can believe you are domiciled abroad but the small print could still have you paying UK income tax. And a few months ago they tightened the rules even further for those mid-week "commuters" from abroad. If you open your mind you'll find that "tax" comes in many forms. For example, if you are a UK pensioner living abroad you get less pension than if you continued to stay in the UK. That's a tax for being British and having the audacity to live abroad. But the issue here is that everyone will pay the price of carrying a British passport - more so in the future. And the price comes in many forms.

Romanian immigration and nationality laws. Maybe after doing that, the UK won't seem so bad after all.

I've never been to Romania but I can guarantee you that even this ex-communist state does not have as much state inteference in everyday life as we have in the UK. But don't take my word, I'm not an expert. A recent study* put Britain pretty low down on the league - lower than - take a deep breath - Russia and China, it's that bad.

*follow the link that says "Bron" - can't seem to link from it here because of the square brackets in the URL

[ismangil]

A recent study put Britain pretty low down on the league - lower than - take a deep breath - Russia and China, it's that bad.

There you go, I was right. Should've gone to Canada after all...